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Car Forum / Saab Cars / June 2004Howcome the 1998 Saab 9-5 wasn't available in the US?
I'm in the market for a used car and my budget is $12,700 and my dad will also let me trade in a beatup old 1994 Lincoln Town Car with 250,000 miles on it. If the 1998 Saab 9-5 was available in the US, it would probably be the car I'd get. The 1998 Saab 9-5 did EXCELLENT in the European Crash Tests, but I think that the Saab 9-5 was redesigned in 1999 and the 1999-2001 Saab 9-5s only did about average in crash tests. Here are the crash test results for the 1998 European Saab 9-5 http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/details.php?id1=4&id2=51 Here are the crash test results for the 1999-2001 American Saab 9-5. http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/98021.htm The 2002-2004 Saab 9-5s also do excellent in crash tests but even the cheapest 2002 Saab 9-5 is several thousand dollars out of my budget. Since the 1998 Saab 9-5 is out of the question(which is unfortunate as it did better than the 1999/2000 Volvo S80 in the European Front Offset Crash Test and Saabs are generally more reliable than Volvos too), I'm leaning towards a 2001 Volvo S80. My mom actually wants me to save my money for a rainy day and for my dad to buy a car for me, but if my dad buys me a car, it will be a much cheaper car, and the best I could hope for is a VERY high milage 1999 Volvo S80. This would be a major downgrade even compared to the 2001 Volvo S80 because in the 2000 model year Volvo improved the car to do better in the front crashes, and in the 2001 model year Volvo put in new multi stage front airbags. In the 1999 Volvo S80, it's not as good as newer versions in front impacts and in the 1999/2000 models the gasses coming out of the front airbag melted the dummy's hands, and volvo fixed this problem in the 2001 Volvo S80. In the 2001 Volvo S80 they also fixed the problem of the airbags deploying in very minor slow speed accidents that was present in the 1999/2000 Volvo S80. Also in the front offset of the 2000 volvo S80, the dummy' head bounced off the front airbag, and then the back of the dummy's head hit the b pillar although nobody really knows if this happens in the 2001-2004 Volvo S80. The 2001-2004 Volvo S80s with the new multistage front airbags have actually NEVER been tested in the front offset crash test so that's why till now the Saab 9-5 really has to be consider the king of the sub $50,000 large family cars in crash tests. If my dad buys me a high milage 1999 Volvo S80, I think I'll have to get some driving gloves to protect my hands as the airbags in the 1999/2000 S80 deploy even in very slow speed minor accidents and the front driver airbag vents very hot gasses at the driver's hands. If on the other hand I buy the 2001 S80 , I won't have to worry about the driving gloves as they fixed that problem in the 2001 and later models. I really couldn't find any crash tests videos besides the side impact poll test for the S80. Check out the front offset crash test video of this 2002 S60 though. Just like the 2000 S80 which was tested, on the S60 the dummy's head hit the B pillar after bouncing off the airbag. Also check out the extremely hot gasses coming out of the airbags. I think in the case of the 2002 S60 the gasses are vented away from the driver's hands, however in the case of the 1999/2000 Volvo S80 the hot gasses from the airbags are actually vented toward's the driver's hands. http://www1.progressive.com/video/02VolvoS60HSF.mpg http://www1.progressive.com/video/02VolvoS60HSF.ram This website did in the past have a front(not offset) crash test video of the 2001 S80, but that video no longer seems to be working. http://www.autosafety.org/crashTestResultsNew.php?autoID=2325 > I'm in the market for a used car and my budget is $12,700 and my dad > will also let me trade in a beatup old 1994 Lincoln Town Car with [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The 1998 Saab 9-5 did EXCELLENT in the European Crash Tests, but I > think that the Saab 9-5 was redesigned in 1999 Nope, same body. They just didn't sell 'em in the US that year. The '99 (and current) 9-5's have the same crash characteristics as the '98. > and the 1999-2001 Saab > 9-5s only did about average in crash tests. Crash tests will vary from year to year, as you're seeing. It's not all that exact of a science. Even more impressive than Saab's crash test results are the injury statistics in the real world; it takes into effect not only how the car performs in an arbitrary lab test, but how it does in the real world - including crash _avoidance_ which the superb handling helps with a lot. > Here are the crash test results for the 1998 European Saab 9-5 > http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/details.php?id1=4&id2=51 > Here are the crash test results for the 1999-2001 American Saab 9-5. > http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/98021.htm Different labs, different testing methodologies. > The 2002-2004 Saab 9-5s also do excellent in crash tests but even the > cheapest 2002 Saab 9-5 is several thousand dollars out of my budget. A good price point to look for is at the 3-year lease tradein. The car will only be 3 years old, you'll know it's been taken care of well, and you have a known service history for it (the dealer can give you this; if they won't, buy from a different dealer). > Since the 1998 Saab 9-5 is out of the question(which is unfortunate as > it did better than the 1999/2000 Volvo S80 in the European Front > Offset Crash Test and Saabs are generally more reliable than Volvos > too), I'm leaning towards a 2001 Volvo S80. Well, drive 'em both & see what you like. But, since the '99 is the same car as the '98, I wouldn't worry too much about different test results from different labs. > Also in the front offset of the 2000 volvo S80, the dummy' head > bounced off the front airbag, and then the back of the dummy's head > hit the b pillar although nobody really knows if this happens in the > 2001-2004 Volvo S80. Look at the real world figures; lab tests are by nature arbitrary and artificial. HLDI (Highway Loss Data Institute) would be one term to google for. Dave Hinz >Crash tests will vary from year to year, as you're seeing. It's not >all that exact of a science. Even more impressive than Saab's >crash test results are the injury statistics in the real world; >it takes into effect not only how the car performs in an arbitrary lab >test, but how it does in the real world - including crash _avoidance_ >which the superb handling helps with a lot. Saabs are definitely the best at crash avoidance! It saved my life at least three times on Friday, which seems to have been Drive Like an Idiot Day. There's no doubt in my mind that those three near misses would have been crashes in any other car I've driven. Best way to find out about how Saab does in overall safety is to ask your insurance agent how much it will cost to insure compared to other cars (or other years in your case). You should be able to find a good 1998-1999 Saab for less than your budget, particularly if you're willing to go extra miles to buy one. I got my 1995 9000CS in Nashville, 280 miles from Knoxville, where I live. Great car at a great price. Search with autotrader.com and there's another site like it, can't remember the name. Check the classifieds and check with independent Saab mechanics in your area to see if they know someone who is selling one. Visit Saab dealers in your area, tell them what you're looking for and that you wouldn't mind a higher mileage car if the price is right. A lot of times they'll sell tradeins with high mileage to auction since there isn't much market for them, since buyers fixate on mileage and not on how the mileage was put on the car. Highway miles put very little wear on a car, stop and go miles do. When you got more time than money, you need to spend it looking for the best deal. You'll find it, maybe not right away but you'll find it. laurak@madmousergraphics.com http://www.madmousergraphics.com web design, print design, photography Your reply and Dave Hinz's reply got me thinking(they're the only ones that showed up on my newsreader so far). Maybe the 2002 Saab 9-5 is not out of my price range. You see my original budget was $11,750, but my dad recently paid me back $950 that I'd loaned him years ago so now my budget is $12,700, and my dad will also let me trade in his beat up old 1994 Lincoln Town car that just sits there and collects dust anyway. I was only looking at cars within 100 miles of my area, but when I did searches for "all distances" I realized that it's not unheard of to find 2002 Saab 9-5 Linears with auto trans for about $13,900 so that a 2002 Saab 9-5 may actually be in my price range which would be great since among used cars the Saab 9-5 is listed in Consumer Reports as one of its "Good Bets", while the Volvo S80 is listed as one of its "Reliability Risks". There may not be any 2002 Saab 9-5s in my budget in my area at this time, but I know that they are out there in other parts of the country(some within just 187 miles) so if I just wait and keep looking, maybe there will be a 2002 Saab 9-5 within my budget in my area soon. The Volvo S80 does have major edges in the Side impact for the rear seat and rollover resistance, but the Saab 9-5 seems to have the edge in the Front Offset Crash Test and it has a major advangage in reliability, and you guys are saying that Saabs have and advantage in accident avoidance as well, while the side impact ratings for the front seat are a wash between the 2 cars. > >Crash tests will vary from year to year, as you're seeing. It's not > >all that exact of a science. Even more impressive than Saab's [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > http://www.madmousergraphics.com > web design, print design, photography > Your reply and Dave Hinz's reply got me thinking(they're the only > ones that showed up on my newsreader so far). [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >>http://www.madmousergraphics.com >>web design, print design, photography You seem to have done your research and laid out your budget for the purchase. I would also determine the insurance cost and allocate some money for maintenance and repairs - then decide what you have for initial purchase cost. Saabs and Volvos are not inexpensive to repair. Keep this in mind when you allocate money for a repair/maintenance budget. Do some more research and talk with the technicians at the local Saab and Volvo shops. Find out how much it cost to maintain each model. You may change your mind. I have been driving Saab and Volvo turbos for over 20 years. The problem is once you have driven a Saab, nothing else will do :-) My experience has been that Saabs cost more to maintain than the older rear wheel drive Volvos. Two thoughts on lease cars. Some have said they are a good deal. Others have said don't buy one because the former driver may have skipped some maintenance to save money because he knew would not be driving the car after 3 years. The problems resulting from the lack of maintenance will be the new owner's problem - that's you, you are the new owner. Check the Volvo group for problems with the automatic transmission. Saab also had problems with automatics in the turbos, which is why most of the Saabs with over 300,000 miles are manual transmissions. Good luck with whatever you purchase! > I'm in the market for a used car and my budget....<cut>....did EXCELLENT in the European Crash Tests, ....<cut>....also do excellent in crash tests ....<cut>....in the European Front > Offset Crash Test ....<cut>....the car to do better in > the front crashes,....<cut>....it's not as good as newer versions in front > impacts ....<cut>.....to be consider the king of the > sub $50,000 large family cars in crash tests. ....<cut>....> Check out the front offset crash test video ....<cut>.... You either suffer from 'crash paranoia,' are a hazard to yourself and others on the highway, or are simply looking to buy a tank. If those Saab boys are still employing the engine and transmission as a unit concept (cannot remove the transmission without the engine), I would be very uneasy contemplating purchasing one! Have at least one horror story of someone falling in love with one Saab model which he purchased for about $4500. Almost immediately the tranny failed. Upon discovering the cost of repair would exceed his purchase price he promptly bought an identical model for about the same money. Not long thereafter that tranny also failed - now this goodly(?) fellow has two essentially worthless driveway decorations to marvel at..................as one wag was wont to say, about anyone can afford a used Mercedes; however, not that many can afford to have one repaired - that engine/transmission as a unit that Saab has used is another good case in point! Hey!, if I can recall the guy's name, I'll have him give you a call; maybe he can recoup some of his lost cash, if one of those crash testing outfits can use those two decorations (Saabs) he has?? Jim > You either suffer from 'crash paranoia,' are a hazard to yourself and others > on the highway, or are simply looking to buy a tank. If those Saab boys are > still employing the engine and transmission as a unit concept (cannot remove > the transmission without the engine), I would be very uneasy contemplating > purchasing one! Never been true, Jim. Your source is wrong. > Have at least one horror story of someone falling in love > with one Saab model which he purchased for about $4500. Almost immediately > the tranny failed. Upon discovering the cost of repair would exceed his > purchase price he promptly bought an identical model for about the same > money. I also don't know of any Saab tranny which would approach $4500 in cost. > not that many can afford to have one repaired - that > engine/transmission as a unit that Saab has used is another good case in > point! What model, Jim? Doesn't exist. Or, he ran into a crooked car repair shop which fed him a line, which is probably more likely. > Hey!, if I can recall the guy's name, I'll have him give you a call; maybe > he can recoup some of his lost cash, if one of those crash testing outfits > can use those two decorations (Saabs) he has?? Maybe he can clarify to you what the story is, because the version you got from him isn't reality. > > Hey!, if I can recall the guy's name, I'll have him give you a call; maybe > > he can recoup some of his lost cash, if one of those crash testing outfits > > can use those two decorations (Saabs) he has?? > > Maybe he can clarify to you what the story is, because the version > you got from him isn't reality. Nah, Jim's just relating a "Volvo Lover's" version of some SAAB repair fiction. The funny thing is, I can not recall anyone ever bad mouthing Volvos on either a.a.saab or a.a.bmw. And I don't believe that is because there is some advantage in repair costs. What does that say about (at least this) Volvo owner's insecurity? -Fred W >>>Hey!, if I can recall the guy's name, I'll have him give you a call; >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > -Fred W There are many people who own both Volvo and Saab - at the same time. I have two Classic 900s and a "classic" rear wheel drive turbo Volvo. They are different cars. The lack of front wheel torque steer is instantly apparent when the turbo kicks in :-) > There are many people who own both Volvo and Saab - at the same time. I > have two Classic 900s and a "classic" rear wheel drive turbo Volvo. > They are different cars. The lack of front wheel torque steer is > instantly apparent when the turbo kicks in :-) It's instantly apparent on all of my RWD BMWs too, and none of them have turbos. But the 4.0L V8 (in my 540i) sure kicks you in the butt like it does! (286bhp/295 ft.lbs). I can't even imagine what the torque steer would be like in that car if it had FWD... -Fred W > > You either suffer from 'crash paranoia,' are a hazard to yourself and others > > on the highway, or are simply looking to buy a tank. If those Saab boys are [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Maybe he can clarify to you what the story is, because the version > you got from him isn't reality. Dave, not sure what your qualifications are concerning transmission work on Saab autos; however, have this reply from a tranny mech that has been doing this stuff for 25 years or more and it is a family function so actual experience goes back three generations: "these guys are insane...i can assure you that on the 900 series saab, that the motor must be removed to get to tranny....any argument to this is futile !!.....now the 9000 series is a different matter...it is a more conventional front wheel drive and the tranny can be removed...no one in their right mind would have labor charges of less than 2,000 dollars to remove and install this unit and tear down of tranny, plus a possibility of $1,000-$2,000 in parts....the saab would have to be the safest car in the world, because you are not in a lot of danger at 0 mph on the side of the road !! " As they say, them what knows, knows............the poor guy buying one of these boys second or third hand is the one who 'should know' but probably, like the 900 lover in my story, hasn't a clue! Some Toyota Camarys are about as bad, as far as expensive transmissions when repair calls - one woman was tickled pink when my friend quoted her a price around $2k to get her wreck back on the road - seems everyone else just wanted to plug in a reman to the tune of about $3.5K! I mean, what is the surprise when most of these "quality" autos crank outta-da-barn for anywhere from $20K - $75K - parts don't get cheaper just 'cause the old hunk gets older? Sad note is that many quality independent garages are going bye-bye every day and soon, with more and more of this 'modular' (non-repairable) concept, that lady and many like her will be crying the blues when all that is available will be that "new reman" from a dealer for $3,500 or likely more! Jim >> Maybe he can clarify to you what the story is, because the version >> you got from him isn't reality. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > this stuff for 25 years or more and it is a family function so actual > experience goes back three generations: I'm not interested in comparing resume's in this forum, but let's read on, shall we? > "these guys are insane...i can assure you that on the 900 series saab, that > the motor must be removed to get to tranny....any argument to this is futile > !! Why, then, does Saab sell a tool made specifically for this? I can give you the Saab part number in case your friend with 3 generations of experience can't find it. It goes on top of each wheel arch & hooks to the lifting point attached to the engine for, er, specifically this purpose, oddly enough. > .....now the 9000 series is a different matter...it is a more conventional > front wheel drive and the tranny can be removed...no one in their right mind > would have labor charges of less than 2,000 dollars to remove and install > this unit and tear down of tranny, Nobody that bothers to find out the proper tool for the job would do things the astonishingly hard way. > plus a possibility of $1,000-$2,000 in > parts....the saab would have to be the safest car in the world, because you > are not in a lot of danger at 0 mph on the side of the road !! " Yeah, you see, the thing is, Jim, I see a lot of rhetoric and not a lot of actual facts coming from you here. It's clear you have strong opinions, but when they're based on incorrect facts, well, ... > As they say, them what knows, knows............the poor guy buying one of > these boys second or third hand is the one who 'should know' but probably, > like the 900 lover in my story, hasn't a clue! And, apparently your friend with all the experience doesn't bother to find out the facts before passing on incorrect information. Pity, that. > Sad note is that many quality independent > garages are going bye-bye every day and soon, with more and more of this > 'modular' (non-repairable) concept, that lady and many like her will be > crying the blues when all that is available will be that "new reman" from a > dealer for $3,500 or likely more! If they don't use the tools available for the job, maybe they _should_ be going out of business. |
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