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Car Forum / Saab Cars / August 2004

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Saab got hurt!!!!

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LauraK - 28 Aug 2004 03:26 GMT
I was creeping along in a school zone at 20 miles an hour and a woman pulled
out of an apartment complex and ran right into the passenger side of the car.
http://www.madmousergraphics.com/accident/damage.html
Claimed she didn't see me. Must be the only stealth 9000CS in existence. A
clear day, perfectly straight street, she's sitting at the bottom of the hill
that I'm coming down at 20 mph.
Saab's doors did their job. The electronics all work in the doors (locks,
windows) and the inside is tight and waterproof. But the outside sheet metal is
pretty torn up. She was driving a Chevy Malibu. Ripped the front bumper and
part of the hood off of that.
Anyone have a clue how much this will cost to get fixed? And can it be restored
to the way it was?
It's her responsibility -- she was charged and ticketed -- and I've got good
insurance. But I'm afraid that they might just give me the value of the car
which may not cover repairs. It's a 1995 with 101,000 on it. If they do that,
I'm thinking it may be better to take the money and use it to get a 1997 9000,
at least as a downpayment.
I hate going through all this. First accident I've had in 20 years.

laurak@madmousergraphics.com
http://www.madmousergraphics.com
web design, print design, photography
John B - 28 Aug 2004 03:57 GMT
> insurance. But I'm afraid that they might just give me the value of the car
> which may not cover repairs. It's a 1995 with 101,000 on it. If they do that,

Very sorry to hear that. My worst nightmare.

John
James Sweet - 28 Aug 2004 08:12 GMT
> I was creeping along in a school zone at 20 miles an hour and a woman pulled
> out of an apartment complex and ran right into the passenger side of the car.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> at least as a downpayment.
> I hate going through all this. First accident I've had in 20 years.

That really sucks!

May as well get an estimate, though from the nature of the damage I wonder
if it would ever be the same again.
Grunff - 28 Aug 2004 11:18 GMT
> Anyone have a clue how much this will cost to get fixed? And can it be restored
> to the way it was?

Ouch! Very sorry to hear that. Main thing is you're ok (and the other
driver). Cars are replaceable. I know this sounds cruel, but I always
think it's important to remember that at times like these.

How much the repair will cost depends on the extent of the damage to the
B post (the post that the rear door hinges from) and the front
suspension mounting areas.

Replacing panels is relatively cheap, and a good job can be made of
mathching the colour. Replacing the B post is quite a big job, and if
required is likely to make the repair uneconomical.

The damage to the front suspension/steering could be fairly minor (new
rack, wishbone, struts) or major (the subframe section where the
wishbone is mounted is bent/damaged). If the suspension damage is
severe, I would not consider repairing it, because getting the car to
track straight following such a repair is going to be quite difficult.
It can be done, but will cost.

So, if we assume that it's just panels and a few suspension components,
it might cost around £2000-3000 to repair. If there is significant
damage to the B post and subframe/floorpan, it could be as much as
£5000. I don't know how these prices will translate to US - I don't
think it will be a straight multiplier, because parts prices are quite
different over there.

Good luck Laura, and let us know what happens.

Signature

Grunff

Johannes H Andersen - 28 Aug 2004 11:52 GMT
[...]
> Anyone have a clue how much this will cost to get fixed? And can it be restored
> to the way it was?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I'm thinking it may be better to take the money and use it to get a 1997 9000,
> at least as a downpayment.

Damage looks extensive, repair will probably be uneconomically, considering
you will end up with an accident repaired car.

You might have to fight proper compensation from the insurers; value of car
plus car hire for a few weeks.

> I hate going through all this. First accident I've had in 20 years.

That's what I always fear. Many dangers are lurking at access roads etc. where
people thinks that no cars are coming.
- Bob - - 28 Aug 2004 14:02 GMT
>Anyone have a clue how much this will cost to get fixed?

Our estimates are pretty much irrelevant. Find a top quality body shop
in your area and see what they say. Look for one the specializes in
upper end cars. If you post where you are, someone here may have a
suggestion.

>And can it be restored to the way it was?

I'd be worried. That's a lot of damage. See what the body men say. It
needs some time on the frame machine, for sure.

>It's her responsibility -- she was charged and ticketed -- and I've got good
>insurance. But I'm afraid that they might just give me the value of the car
>which may not cover repairs. It's a 1995 with 101,000 on it. If they do that,
>I'm thinking it may be better to take the money and use it to get a 1997 9000,
>at least as a downpayment.

Make sure you get full value. In the US, states vary widely as to what
you get for a settlement. See what your agent says about the laws
where you are and check the full extent of possibilities. Don't get
screwed by the insurance company shuffle. Even your own company just
wants to minimize their costs - including "administration. Find out
your rights.
LauraK - 28 Aug 2004 21:14 GMT
>Our estimates are pretty much irrelevant. Find a top quality body shop
>in your area and see what they say. Look for one the specializes in
>upper end cars. If you post where you are, someone here may have a
>suggestion.

I'm in Knoxville, TN.
The car is driveable. Out of alignment and one headlight is pointed up, but
doesn't seem to have any other handling problems. I'm going to have my mechanic
here take a look under it on Monday and see what he thinks.
I've got a good friend who owns one of the largest body shops in South Georgia.
Does great work. I want to drive it down to him and have him do it. He'll keep
the price down as much as he can. Will also tell me if it's not worth doing. My
insurance agent is also in Georgia.
Having a repaired car doesn't bother me. I only get a new car when the old one
is so far gone that it gets towed for junk.
Part the problem is I really want to stick with the hatchback. I've seen some
1997 9000s in Connecticut that look affordable if I get cash from insurance.
Anyone have any experience with Roberti in New York or Robert Motor Cars in
Woodbury, CN?

laurak@madmousergraphics.com
http://www.madmousergraphics.com
web design, print design, photography
Zweef? - 28 Aug 2004 21:41 GMT
> I'm in Knoxville, TN.

What does TN stand for? Not all of us are americans you know.

And yes, you may call me stupid. But only after pointing out where The
Netherlands can be found on a map ;-)
Signature

Bezit en wijsheid zijn illusies

LauraK - 28 Aug 2004 22:04 GMT
>What does TN stand for? Not all of us are americans you know.
>
>And yes, you may call me stupid. But only after pointing out where The
>Netherlands can be found on a map ;-)

Sorry. Knoxville, Tennessee. A long, narrow state between Georgia and Alabama
to the South and Kentucky to the North.

laurak@madmousergraphics.com
http://www.madmousergraphics.com
web design, print design, photography
Dave Hinz - 28 Aug 2004 23:05 GMT
>> I'm in Knoxville, TN.
>>
> What does TN stand for? Not all of us are americans you know.

Tennesee.  Towards the east of the US, about mid-way north to
south.

> And yes, you may call me stupid. But only after pointing out where The
> Netherlands can be found on a map ;-)

I know Laura, and I don't think she or anyone else would call
you stupid for not knowing where it is.  I also think that
most or all of us _could_ point out the Netherlands on a map.
James Sweet - 29 Aug 2004 02:09 GMT
> > I'm in Knoxville, TN.
> >
> What does TN stand for? Not all of us are americans you know.
>
> And yes, you may call me stupid. But only after pointing out where The
> Netherlands can be found on a map ;-)

The answer to your question could be found in about 2 seconds if you type TN
map into Google.
ma_twain - 29 Aug 2004 14:28 GMT
>>Our estimates are pretty much irrelevant. Find a top quality body shop
>>in your area and see what they say. Look for one the specializes in
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> http://www.madmousergraphics.com
> web design, print design, photography

This reply is Saab related.  The issue with buying any car which has
been through winters in area with snow and salt is rust.  My experience
with Saabs has been that they will have more exposure to salt because
they are driven more, because they handle so well in the snow. Check
this out before you buy, unless the price is so low you are willing to
accept rust.
R. Frist - 29 Aug 2004 16:39 GMT
Laura wrote:

> The car is driveable. Out of alignment and one headlight is pointed up, but
> doesn't seem to have any other handling problems. I'm going to have my mechanic
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Anyone have any experience with Roberti in New York or Robert Motor Cars in
> Woodbury, CN?
_______

Hi Laura,

One of the hassles of running older cars is the decrepancy over how
much the car is worth to you and what the insurance companies offer.
To make you whole they should either repair the car at any cost or
offer some compensation for your time and trouble of finding a
replacement. I suspect that the insurance companies have lobbyists
that make sure that things don't work this way.

My significant other just went through this.  Her beloved 1995 Mazda
Millenia was declared totaled after being hit by a drunken driver.  We
tried to get either the Kelley Blue book retail value or the Edmund's
retail value for the car but the insurance companies have apparently
colluded to develop they own so-called Red Book which in our case was
a $1000 below even fair condition cars listed by the other reveiwers.
It helped a little to complain.  They added a couple of hundred to
their first offer when we listed all the options on the car and showed
receipts for new tires, etc.

After two discourgaging weeks it turns out there was a silver lining.
While looking at used Volvos at a Volvo dealership she fell in love
with a 1999 Saab 9-5 SE automatic they had.  This was a surprise to me
because she thinks my 9000CSE drives like a tank (I think this is
because she wrestles with the manual transmission). She liked the
handling and comfort of the 9-5 better than a Volvo A80.  It is a
creampuff that we got for a very resonable price.  I think there is an
advantage in buying used Saabs from a reputable non-Saab dealership.
They may have more incentive to get them off their lots.

I glad you were not hurt and hope that things work out as well as they
have for us.

Good luck,  R. Frist
- Bob - - 29 Aug 2004 21:34 GMT
>One of the hassles of running older cars is the decrepancy over how
>much the car is worth to you and what the insurance companies offer.
>To make you whole they should either repair the car at any cost or
>offer some compensation for your time and trouble of finding a
>replacement. I suspect that the insurance companies have lobbyists
>that make sure that things don't work this way.

Depends on the state. You need to find out your rights/the law in your
state by talking to your agent. I don't know of any places where they
are required to pay for your time, or to pay more to repair the car
than it would cost to replace it. But, there are laws governing what
the "replacement" cost is (e.g. dealer list in the actual area for a
comparable car vs. avg. retail), regulations on the other costs (many
areas require them to pay the sales tax but you typically do have to
ask), and regulations on whether you get to pick the shop and have
the repairs done with new/old parts and other matters of the actual
repair. You need to find out all your rights in your particular area.
Nasty Bob - 28 Aug 2004 14:12 GMT
But I'm afraid that they might just give me the value of the car
which may not cover repairs. It's a 1995 with 101,000 on it. If they do
that,
I'm thinking it may be better to take the money and use it to get a 1997
9000,
at least as a downpayment.
I hate going through all this. First accident I've had in 20 years.

Sorry your car got hurt - she was beauty. But like others have said, at
least you're OK. Hope you'll find an even better one ;)
ma_twain - 28 Aug 2004 18:53 GMT
> But I'm afraid that they might just give me the value of the car
> which may not cover repairs. It's a 1995 with 101,000 on it. If they do
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Sorry your car got hurt - she was beauty. But like others have said, at
> least you're OK. Hope you'll find an even better one ;)

Considering the age and "Book" value of the car, the insurance company
might total it.  The car did its job and protected you. Hopefully the
car can be fixed.  It is getting harder and harder to find older Saabs
in good condition for sale.  You can see the cars but they are not for
sale.  I had to settle for a NG 900 because the Classic 900s are getting
hard to find without big rust issues or the owners realize what they
have, the Classics are priced higher than the newer NG 900s. I was going
to get a 1992 C900, but it was sold in one day for full asking price. I
don't know if finding a 9000 without rust is the same.
James Sweet - 29 Aug 2004 02:11 GMT
> Considering the age and "Book" value of the car, the insurance company
> might total it.  The car did its job and protected you. Hopefully the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> to get a 1992 C900, but it was sold in one day for full asking price. I
> don't know if finding a 9000 without rust is the same.

If it were me and it sustained that sort of damage to the unibody, I'd
search for another car with at least a nice straight body and keep the
wrecked one long enough to transfer over the interior and any better
mechanical parts. That's a LOT of work though, but I enjoy that sort of
thing.
MeatballTurbo - 28 Aug 2004 14:51 GMT
> Saab's doors did their job. The electronics all work in the doors (locks,
> windows) and the inside is tight and waterproof. But the outside sheet metal is
> pretty torn up. She was driving a Chevy Malibu. Ripped the front bumper and
> part of the hood off of that.

It's hard to do, but it may be worth going to sleep chanting "It's justa
car, It's just a car" for a couple of weeks, just incase the damage is
too much.

Maybe think about it as a chance to go better, and treat the last one as
a learning car. It was good, it did it's job on the road and in the
crash. If you have space, maybe you could get the Salvage and use the
good bits as a spares car?

Glad you and the other person are in OK shape.
Signature

Carl Robson
(The poster formerly known as Skodapilot)
http://www.bouncing-czechs.com

ajs - 29 Aug 2004 07:48 GMT
Maybe it's time to find an Aero?!
> I was creeping along in a school zone at 20 miles an hour and a woman pulled
> out of an apartment complex and ran right into the passenger side of the car.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> http://www.madmousergraphics.com
> web design, print design, photography
Bill - 29 Aug 2004 22:38 GMT
By insurance industry standards your car is a "total".

You have got a tough road ahead of you. But armed with the facts you may
be able to recoup the maxim amount from insurance to help you get
another decent car.

With the trade in value of your vehicle being around $3600 most
insurance companies will try and buy you off with a total for around
this amount. They do not want to hear that "I want the same type of
vehicle, the same condition, etc. etc". That is what the car is worth
and they don't care that it is "your baby". Remember, in your case, that
retail book value for the car is around $7500 so don't expect to get
more than that.

Do your homework and find out what your car is worth and what it is
going to cost to replace the car. A good start is www.kbb.com. Do
homework on other sites including ebay, your local classified papers
etc. to determine the true replacemetn value of your Saab. The more
information you have the more money you will get. In fact if you pick
out a new vehicle ahead of time you may be able to negotiate a better
settlement by telling them just to replace the car with this one. I have
seen this done in the classic car arena.

Remeber they only care about what your cars is worth not what it will
cost you to replace it.

Following these steps may help you get what you deserve.

1. Find out who the claims adjuster is representing....your insurance or
the offenders insurance. If it is the offenders insurance...listen, take
notes, and let him talk...you just listen. Bring a tape recorder. If he
starts talking settlement ask if you can record that part of his
statement. NEVER record that part of the converstation without his
permission (get permission, date, time, name) on the recording.

2. DO NOT ARGUE WITH THE ADJUSTER. His only responsibility is to
determine the cost of repairs. He follows rules and can not change them.
Do not commit yourself to a settlement until you have had time to think
about it. Do not agree to any of his "options" he is presenting to you.
And if he asks you to sign something do not do so until you have had
thorough time to read the paper work. (Remember it is still your car
until you sign the paperwork).

(Remember that the job of an insurance adjuster is to protect the
insurance companies bottom line. They will do all they can to cut costs
including trying to low ball you into a settlement).

3. Make sure you ask for a provided rental. The additional cost of this
will help drive up the total cost of the claim and may give you
additional negotiating power.

4.If you are not satisfied with your settlement you do have options.
Speak to the insurance companies inside people about the settlement.
This is usually a waste of time. Pester your agent. This will probably
be unsuccessful too as they care more about their relationship with the
company than with their client.

5. Talk to an Attorney. A good sleazy Lawyer can usually scare the crap
out of the offenders insurance enough to get them to up the settlement.

Remember with the record amounts of money about to paid out this quarter
 because of the Hurricane in Florida the insurance companies are going
to try and cut costs any way possible.

Good Luck

> I was creeping along in a school zone at 20 miles an hour and a woman pulled
> out of an apartment complex and ran right into the passenger side of the car.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> http://www.madmousergraphics.com
> web design, print design, photography
LauraK - 29 Aug 2004 23:08 GMT
Thanks for all the advice. Only have one accident before, and that was in a
no-fault state and 20 years ago.
I have not yet been able to get information on the insurance company of the
woman who hit me. She refused to show me an insurance card or show me a
driver's license, although the police officer said she gave him the
information. Her insurance company has not been in touch with me.
It's not on the accient report that I picked up last week. Anyone involved in a
wreck has to file a separate form with Tennessee state within 20 days, giving
insurance info.
You aren't required to present proof of insurance to get a license or a tag in
Tennessee. However, you do have to be able to prove "financial responsibilty"
if asked to produce insurance.
The whole thing is pretty confusing and not helped by the fact that my
insurance agent is in Georgia.
I've faxed my agent the information I got and she should handle the
negotiations for recovering the money from the other party.
I do have very good insurance. Includes rental car, uninsured and underinsured
motorists, etc. Even covers my medical expenses if I'm hit by a car while
crossing a street.  It's a small company that just operates in the Southeast.
Rates have been excellent and I've been with them for 13 years. I hope that
will work in my favor.

laurak@madmousergraphics.com
http://www.madmousergraphics.com
web design, print design, photography
- Bob - - 30 Aug 2004 03:19 GMT
>Thanks for all the advice. Only have one accident before, and that was in a
>no-fault state and 20 years ago.
>I have not yet been able to get information on the insurance company of the
>woman who hit me. She refused to show me an insurance card or show me a
>driver's license, although the police officer said she gave him the
>information.

I think the police report is public knowledge. That is, you can
request a copy of any information the police have. Certainly it would
be available for a court case to an attorney as part of discovery.
Call the police and ask them for it. I also believe that it's illegal
to refuse to identify yourself to the other driver when  property
damage is involved - but I don't live in TN. Laws vary.

>Her insurance company has not been in touch with me.
>It's not on the accient report that I picked up last week. Anyone involved in a
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>Rates have been excellent and I've been with them for 13 years. I hope that
>will work in my favor.

Just remember that in most states, it's better to collect from the
other person's insurance company than from yours. In some states, your
company will pay you and go after the other company but the rules vary
quite a bit. Some places used independent adjusters and the two
companies will accept the adjusters statement as is. Other states have
company based adjusters who will argue the damage. I'm sure you'll be
well versed in the intricate details before you're done. Also, in most
states you can sue the person who hit you no matter what - that is,
you can bring a suit against the person and let them get their
insurance company involved. But again, laws vary.

>laurak@madmousergraphics.com
>http://www.madmousergraphics.com
>web design, print design, photography
Andrew Stephenson - 30 Aug 2004 15:23 GMT
I've been following this thread with a foreigner's interest: ie,
I don't expect the law in USA.TN to fit perfectly with the UK's.

Still, I do wonder why nobody suggests recovery from the one who
caused the accident of whatever part of the damage is not covered
by insurance.  Is there a plain answer (beyond "not practical") ?
--
Andrew Stephenson
Grunff - 30 Aug 2004 16:07 GMT
> I've been following this thread with a foreigner's interest: ie,
> I don't expect the law in USA.TN to fit perfectly with the UK's.
>
> Still, I do wonder why nobody suggests recovery from the one who
> caused the accident of whatever part of the damage is not covered
> by insurance.  Is there a plain answer (beyond "not practical") ?

All you will ever get as a payout from either insurance company or
through the courts is the full street value of the car. If the repairs
cost more than this, then it's up to the owner to make the decision
whether it is worth paying the extra. This applies to both UK and US.

Signature

Grunff

- Bob - - 30 Aug 2004 17:21 GMT
>All you will ever get as a payout from either insurance company or
>through the courts is the full street value of the car. If the repairs
>cost more than this, then it's up to the owner to make the decision
>whether it is worth paying the extra. This applies to both UK and US.

To some extent, anyway. Arguments could be made for the repair of the
car if you can represent that it has some unique value/feature beyond
what you can find in any dealer's lot. An attorney could stretch that
to simply be "a car you drove since new with a known repair history".

Keep in mind that the insurance company is _not_ on your side. They
want to minimize their payout. That includes "your" company and the
other driver's and includes time as well as monetary expenses. So,
you'll often see your company ready to "settle" the claim for and
offer that's less than perfect for you. They'll settle, refuse to
go to court, try to flex their muscles, etc. As I've said before -
you have to check local laws and find out every detail if you want to
avoid getting sold down the river (by a company that you've been
paying for years with no return :-)
James Sweet - 31 Aug 2004 03:03 GMT
> > I've been following this thread with a foreigner's interest: ie,
> > I don't expect the law in USA.TN to fit perfectly with the UK's.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> cost more than this, then it's up to the owner to make the decision
> whether it is worth paying the extra. This applies to both UK and US.

And if they're being particularly difficult you can always start complaining
of back or neck injuries, often that'll get the insurance company nervous
enough to try to settle it as fast as they can.
Everett M. Greene - 30 Aug 2004 17:56 GMT
> By insurance industry standards your car is a "total".
>
> You have got a tough road ahead of you. But armed
> with the facts you may be able to recoup the maxim
> amount from insurance to help you get another decent car.
[snip]

And another tidbit for those living in California:  If
you sign over the totalled vehicle's title to the
insurance company, make certain the company files the
title transfer.  The State of California will continue
to bill you for the license and fees with threats of
substantial penalties for non-payment even though the
vehicle no longer exists and/or owned by your.  CalDMV
told me that non-existence of the vehicle is not a
sufficient excuse for non-payment of the taxes and
fees!  Until they have the paperwork and have
processed it, you're the "owner" and they want their
money and they want it NOW.
kajka - 30 Aug 2004 19:21 GMT
hi

This type of accident has written-off two of our Saab's over the years.

Once you get over missing the vehicle if it goes  - buy another Saab ready
for the next non-looking driver.

Cheers

Dave A
 
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