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Car Forum / Saab Cars / January 2005H engine in 9-5?
For reasons I really don't want to go into right now, I'm asking an uncomfortable question. What are my engine options for a '99 9-5 which currently has a very misbehaving 2.3L LPT engine? My burst PCV hose(s) seem to have been a symptom of, rather than the cause of, my engine's problems. According to the non-saab-specialist garage who looked at it, it has _VERY_ high crankcase pressure, which he is thinking is heavy-duty engine problems. He is also bowing out of the repair process, as he's not comfortable in getting too deep into something he doesn't know. OK, here's my real question I guess. WTF would happen while driving that would include PCV hoses (plural) bursting/dissolving, and when said hoses are fixed would include knocking of the engine? I don't get it. I'm rather pissed off right now so if I'm not being real clear please forgive. Suggestions? Can I stick a "B" engine in there? How about an "H" engine? Or, should I just get the 99T running now rather than later and park the 9-5? Argh. I don't have time for this right now. Any suggestions at all? Could this actually be something trivial in the PCV system that just makes the engine sound like crap and _sound_ like a knock? Mightily annoyed/frustrated/stressed, Dave Hinz > For reasons I really don't want to go into right now, I'm asking an > uncomfortable question. I think you have lost your head so here is some help to see if you can get it back on its stand (neck). > What are my engine options for a '99 9-5 which currently has a very > misbehaving 2.3L LPT engine? My burst PCV hose(s) seem to have been [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > He is also bowing out of the repair process, as he's not comfortable in > getting too deep into something he doesn't know. He is honest. He probably knows the problem but wants an easy(ish) life and no customers coming back to complain. > OK, here's my real question I guess. WTF would happen while driving that > would include PCV hoses (plural) bursting/dissolving, and when said hoses > are fixed would include knocking of the engine? I don't get it. I'm > rather pissed off right now so if I'm not being real clear please forgive. Missing the meaning of WTF. Crankcase pressure can happen in one way (and with imagination in two more ways). Method 1. Gases escape from the piston rings/cylinders into the cranckcase etc. Worn/broken rings or worn cylinders. Method 2. Gases escape via the valve guides. Method 3. Completely screwed up ignition timing (not really). The first is the most likely. If you have blue smoke and possibly reduced performance you are looking for a broken ring(s). The chances are the problem is at (1). A compression test should reveal what is happening. If you follow the normal steps you should see if some cylinders are faulty or if they are all worn it should show up when you test with some oil dropped in the cylinder. > Suggestions? Can I stick a "B" engine in there? How about an "H" engine? No comment. > Or, should I just get the 99T running now rather than later and park the > 9-5? > > Argh. I don't have time for this right now. Any suggestions at all? > Could this actually be something trivial in the PCV system that just > makes the engine sound like crap and _sound_ like a knock? If it is a real knock (following from point 1 above) then it is a completely worn out engine (big ends or small ends or both are gone). If however the ignition timing is gone wrong (faulty chain, gears or electronics) then ... sorry my timing knowledge is using stroboscopes nothing with the electronic stuff. I have knows bad timing (valve timing) in my previous C900 to cause fuel and a lot of oil to go back in the air filter only to be sucked back in and cause a lot of dirt everywhere. Something like that could happen with a stuck valve or a faulty hydraulic tapet (thingie on the valve). Not enough though to explain all the things you describe. > Mightily annoyed/frustrated/stressed, > Dave Hinz I would start from a compression test. Sorry I am not saying what it involves as I am not sure of the proceedure to isolate electronic ignition systems ... and catalytic converters. If you have a worn engine it may be worth rebuilding, if something is broken a lot will depend on damage in the cylinders. If it helps at all. Charles  SignaturePlease remove _removeme_ to reply. Work: http://www.somis.dundee.ac.uk/ Hobby: http://www.egothor.org/ >> For reasons I really don't want to go into right now, I'm asking an >> uncomfortable question. > > I think you have lost your head so here is some help to see if you can > get it back on its stand (neck). Could be. Seems a logical next step is a compression test, after which pulling the head is physically and logically next. >> He is also bowing out of the repair process, as he's not comfortable in >> getting too deep into something he doesn't know. > > He is honest. He probably knows the problem but wants an easy(ish) life > and no customers coming back to complain. Well, he's also a personal friend (we've been firefighters and EMTs together for a decade or so) so I take him at his word. >> OK, here's my real question I guess. WTF would happen while driving that >> would include PCV hoses (plural) bursting/dissolving, and when said hoses >> are fixed would include knocking of the engine? I don't get it. I'm >> rather pissed off right now so if I'm not being real clear please forgive. > > Missing the meaning of WTF. What The f.ck. As in, "this doesn't make sense, what is going on here" with a "I'm a bit upset" connotation. > Crankcase pressure can happen in one way (and with imagination in two > more ways). > Method 1. Gases escape from the piston rings/cylinders into the > cranckcase etc. Worn/broken rings or worn cylinders. He's thinking rings. At 93K miles???? Again, WTF? > Method 2. Gases escape via the valve guides. Ah. > Method 3. Completely screwed up ignition timing (not really). Postulate 4: Massive air leak in PCV system causing engine management system to not know when to fire so it _sounds_ like pinging maybe? > The first is the most likely. If you have blue smoke and possibly > reduced performance you are looking for a broken ring(s). The chances > are the problem is at (1). A compression test should reveal what is > happening. He's doing one for me this morning, will know results soon. > If you follow the normal steps you should see if some > cylinders are faulty or if they are all worn it should show up when you > test with some oil dropped in the cylinder. >> Suggestions? Can I stick a "B" engine in there? How about an "H" engine? > No comment. It's just that I have this nice nearly shiny B-engine I'm rebuilding right now for the '78 99 Turbo. >> Could this actually be something trivial in the PCV system that just >> makes the engine sound like crap and _sound_ like a knock? > > If it is a real knock (following from point 1 above) then it is a > completely worn out engine (big ends or small ends or both are gone). Which would be odd. > If however the ignition timing is gone wrong (faulty chain, gears or > electronics) then ... sorry my timing knowledge is using stroboscopes > nothing with the electronic stuff. Same here, that's why Bill is working on it at the moment. If it turns into a mechanical issue again (rings/valves/etc) I'm good to go, but I'm just not comfortable on the newer ones like I am on the older ones. Maybe that's about to change. > I have knows bad timing (valve timing) in my previous C900 to cause fuel > and a lot of oil to go back in the air filter only to be sucked back in > and cause a lot of dirt everywhere. Something like that could happen > with a stuck valve or a faulty hydraulic tapet (thingie on the valve). > Not enough though to explain all the things you describe. Right, and I'd probably have heard tappet noises which were decidedly not there at all. > I would start from a compression test. Sorry I am not saying what it > involves as I am not sure of the proceedure to isolate electronic > ignition systems ... and catalytic converters. I am hoping that it's as simple as gauge in spark plug hole and crank it? It's a DI car so it won't start running at that point, all things considered... > If you have a worn engine it may be worth rebuilding, if something is > broken a lot will depend on damage in the cylinders. Yup. > If it helps at all. It does, I appreciate your time and thoughts as always. I think we've been crossing paths on Usenet for over a decade, haven't we? Misc.rural back in the 90's, and here at least? Dave Hinz >> Method 1. Gases escape from the piston rings/cylinders into the >> cranckcase etc. Worn/broken rings or worn cylinders. > > He's thinking rings. At 93K miles???? Again, WTF? I don't believe so....! What about your crankcase-ventilation, you're sure it isn't blocked up. It's a common fault on the 9-5 and Saab has released several bulletins about it... Cheers! >> He's thinking rings. At 93K miles???? Again, WTF? > > I don't believe so....! > What about your crankcase-ventilation, you're sure it isn't blocked up. It's > a common fault on the 9-5 and Saab has released several bulletins about > it... Do you have a link to said bulletins? Best I have is the article on photo.platonoff.com showing how to do the PCV retrofit. Is this a "I pay for it" update or "Saab pays for it" update? And is the Saab part number 5962428 the correct kit to buy? Thanks, if this is all of the problem my day has just got a LOT better, Dave Hinz >> What about your crankcase-ventilation, you're sure it isn't blocked up. >> It's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > for it" update or "Saab pays for it" update? And is the Saab part number > 5962428 the correct kit to buy? I'm not sure about the part number, but I can check the EPC to see. You'll have to ask Saab about the warrenty-issue. The swede G?ran Larsson, who writes alot "in here" has made a VERY informative page about the problem. You can read it here: http://www.mitt-eget.com/saab/information_ccv_en.shtml Cheers! >> Do you have a link to said bulletins? Best I have is the article on >> photo.platonoff.com showing how to do the PCV retrofit. Is this a "I pay [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I'm not sure about the part number, but I can check the EPC to see. You'll > have to ask Saab about the warrenty-issue. The car has 90,000+ miles so I doubt it's a warranty issue. I don't care so much about that to be honest, I just want to get it fixed. > The swede Göran Larsson, who writes alot "in here" has made a VERY > informative page about the problem. You can read it here: > http://www.mitt-eget.com/saab/information_ccv_en.shtml He does nice work, doesn't he? (Göran, in your "tips" section the otherwise excellent translation to English is incomplete, "och" appears several times). Dave Hinz >> The swede G?ran Larsson, who writes alot "in here" has made a VERY >> informative page about the problem. You can read it here: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > otherwise excellent translation to English is incomplete, "och" > appears several times). Means "and", but I guess you already figured that out. ;o) Cheers! >> He does nice work, doesn't he? (Göran, in your "tips" section the >> otherwise excellent translation to English is incomplete, "och" >> appears several times). > > Means "and", but I guess you already figured that out. ;o) Yes, thanks. I can read Swedish / Danish / Nynorsk fairly well, but when I try to write it my attempts have been nicely described as "amusing". I am hopeful that this is all just PCV plumbing issues at this point. Can I bypass the oil-trap and learn anything useful, or would that overcompliate diagnosis? Dave > He does nice work, doesn't he? (G?ran, in your "tips" section the > otherwise excellent translation to English is incomplete, "och" > appears several times). Sorry. The translation from the Swedish page was done very quickly so I could reply to your article that started this thread. A quick cut-and-paste was the origin of the spurious "och". SignatureG?ran Larsson http://www.mitt-eget.com/saab/ >> He does nice work, doesn't he? (Göran, in your "tips" section the >> otherwise excellent translation to English is incomplete, "och" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I could reply to your article that started this thread. A quick > cut-and-paste was the origin of the spurious "och". No worries; the meaning is perfectly clear, I just wanted to help you with a bit of proofreading. Still waiting on the compression test... >> The swede Göran Larsson, who writes alot "in here" has made a VERY >> informative page about the problem. You can read it here: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > otherwise excellent translation to English is incomplete, "och" > appears several times). ... That's Scottish :) Sorry to hear of your problem(s) Dave. Your idea that there might be a huge air leak causing the engine management to be so confused it just fires at around the right time seems be quite a logical approach, but don't forget that simple things like spark plugs "feed" the engine management system with information. I'm not too clued up on the new(er) SAABs ... Or the older ones for that matter :) Is there a way to "reset" the engine management computer?On DI cars that I've owned, disconnecting the battery for 15 minutes "resets" the system. Good luck with it ... Hope the SAAB karma you've given out over comes back! Paul 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ > Good luck with it ... Hope the SAAB karma you've given out over comes back! Thanks for that, Paul. Either way, I really want to understand the root cause of all this and will share the findings with the group. If it does end up being something mechanical, _that_ I can deal with OK. On that topic, if I do end up rebuilding the 2.3L engine in my 9-5, is there any performance updates I can do while I'm in there, or are all the performance mods these days in the T7? Dave >> Good luck with it ... Hope the SAAB karma you've given out over comes back! > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > is there any performance updates I can do while I'm in there, or are > all the performance mods these days in the T7? The guys & gals here would know: http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=12 > OK, here's my real question I guess. WTF would happen while driving that > would include PCV hoses (plural) bursting/dissolving, and when said hoses > are fixed would include knocking of the engine? I don't get it. Is the knocking the sound from detonations inside the cylinders or is it the sound from a broken big end bearing, small end bearing, or a broken piston? A broken piston would explain both the knocking sound, the high crankcase pressure and the broken hoses. You have to make a compression test to see if that could be the explanation. > Suggestions? Can I stick a "B" engine in there? How about an "H" engine? A B2x4 (long engine) (about 1993 and later) should fit nicely. This engine swap is done by some 9-5 owners here in Sweden as the B234 engine isn't as optomized as the B2x5 engine, i.e. it has more metal in certain places that makes it better for high power outputs. Trying to fit one of the older longitudinally mounted engines is going to be an interesting job. They were never designed to fit a car like the 9-5. > Argh. I don't have time for this right now. Any suggestions at all? > Could this actually be something trivial in the PCV system that just > makes the engine sound like crap and _sound_ like a knock? A broken piston. SignatureG?ran Larsson http://www.mitt-eget.com/saab/ > A B2x4 (long engine) (about 1993 and later) should fit nicely. This Should be A B2x4 (short engine) (about 1993 and later) should fit nicely. This SignatureG?ran Larsson http://www.mitt-eget.com/saab/ >> OK, here's my real question I guess. WTF would happen while driving that >> would include PCV hoses (plural) bursting/dissolving, and when said hoses [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > crankcase pressure and the broken hoses. You have to make a compression > test to see if that could be the explanation. I'm glad to see that you and I have come to the same next logical step for diagnosis. >> Suggestions? Can I stick a "B" engine in there? How about an "H" engine? > > A B2x4 (long engine) (about 1993 and later) should fit nicely. This > engine swap is done by some 9-5 owners here in Sweden as the B234 engine > isn't as optomized as the B2x5 engine, i.e. it has more metal in certain > places that makes it better for high power outputs. Interesting, good to know. > Trying to fit one of the older longitudinally mounted engines is going > to be an interesting job. They were never designed to fit a car like the > 9-5. OK, then I'll get the 99 Turbo going with that engine then. >> Argh. I don't have time for this right now. Any suggestions at all? >> Could this actually be something trivial in the PCV system that just >> makes the engine sound like crap and _sound_ like a knock? > A broken piston. Ouch. A PCV problem could lead to a broken piston? > > A broken piston. > > Ouch. A PCV problem could lead to a broken piston? A broken piston can have several causes. The one involving the crankcase ventilation system is: * The crankcase ventilation system puts in oil in the throttle housing. * Enough oil will lower the octane rating of the petrol. * Low octane rating increases risk for pre-detonation/ping. * If octane rating is low enough then Trionic will not have enough headroom to compensate. * Pre-detonation/ping will damage piston. * Broken piston lets combustion gasses into crankcase. * Crankcase pressure increases. * Hoses connected to crankcase, e.g. part crankcase ventilation system, bursts. I have no idea if this is what has happened to your engine, but it is one explanations that has been put forward as an explanation of piston damage in B2x5 engines. Fortunately I have had no problems of this kind in my own 9-5, so I have no direct knowledge about broken pistons. Look at this image: < http://saab.ath.cx/stcs/presho/Modds/Cool%20Kolvar/Diverse%20SAAB%20T%20kolvar/t 7vst5.jpg > <http://saab.ath.cx/stcs/presho/Modds/Cool%20Kolvar/ Diverse%20SAAB%20T%20kolvar/t7vst5.jpg> The piston on the left is from a low friction Trionic 7 engine. The piston on the right is from a Trionic 5 engine. Note the crack on the Trionic 7 piston. The crack starts at top left and continues down and right until it reaches the hole for the piston bolt. This type of crack, unfortunately, is not always visible after removing only the cylinder head. Lets hope the problem with your engine is something less serious. SignatureG?ran Larsson http://www.mitt-eget.com/saab/ > In article <2t7si5F1s3mnlU5@uni-berlin.de>, > I have no idea if this is what has happened to your engine, but it is > one explanations that has been put forward as an explanation of piston > damage in B2x5 engines. If I do have something bad mechanical going on, I'll take pictures so we can use it for a training aid of some sort. > Look at this image: > < http://saab.ath.cx/stcs/presho/Modds/Cool%20Kolvar/Diverse%20SAAB%20T%20kolvar/t 7vst5.jpg > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > crack, unfortunately, is not always visible after removing only the > cylinder head. That is a _very_ odd-looking piston, at least compared to the B-engine pistons I've been juggling lately. > Lets hope the problem with your engine is something less serious. Yes. > That is a _very_ odd-looking piston, at least compared to the B-engine > pistons I've been juggling lately. Not so odd. Just the way it is today. Less material and less surface towards the cylinder walls reduce friction and reduce fuel consumption. Just look at the pistons in the pictures; from the old B202 piston to a piston from a formula 1 engine. The B2x5 (Trionic 7) piston is closer in appearance to the F1 piston than to the B202 piston. B202 piston to the left. B2x4 piston to the right. < http://saab.ath.cx/stcs/presho/Modds/Cool%20Kolvar/Diverse%20SAAB%20T%20kolvar/B 202%20och%20234i.JPG > B2x4 piston to the left. B2x5 piston to the right. < http://saab.ath.cx/stcs/presho/Modds/Cool%20Kolvar/Diverse%20SAAB%20T%20kolvar/t 7vst5.jpg > F1 engine piston. < http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:Ia7vM6jwYxwJ:members.atlasf1.com/desmo/pis tone.jpg > SignatureG?ran Larsson http://www.mitt-eget.com/saab/ > < http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:Ia7vM6jwYxwJ:members.atlasf1.com/desmo/pis tone.jpg > F1 has no turbo but 800+ bhp @ 19000 rpm! Obviously the pistons have to be light. F1 engines don't have to last more than one weekend of races. > F1 has no turbo but 800+ bhp @ 19000 rpm! Obviously the pistons have to > be light. > F1 engines don't have to last more than one weekend of races. True. That was my point. Pistons in standard car engines are shrinking just as they did for F1 engines. Saab is doing it to get lower fuel consumption and for the environment, F1 teams are doing it to get higher revs and more power. Unfortunately this trend is making the pistons weaker. The intention with the series of piston images was to show the progression from the almost bulletproof B202 engine to the short lived F1 engine and how close the current B2x5 pistons are to the "short lived" end of the series of images. SignatureG?ran Larsson http://www.mitt-eget.com/saab/ > > F1 has no turbo but 800+ bhp @ 19000 rpm! Obviously the pistons have to > > be light. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > short lived F1 engine and how close the current B2x5 pistons are to the > "short lived" end of the series of images. At 105k my 1993 2.0 CSE LPT just goes on and on, smooth as ever. I do change oil & filter at 3000-4000 miles, fully synthetic 5W40, but otherwise very little servicing. It gets a blast of sprint now and then, but only when the engine is fully warmed up. >> Less material and less surface >towards the cylinder walls reduce friction and reduce fuel consumption. >Just look at the pistons in the pictures; from the old B202 piston to a >piston from a formula 1 engine. The B2x5 (Trionic 7) piston is closer >in appearance to the F1 piston than to the B202 piston. Sorry for the long delay!!!!! The big reason for reduction in piston size is that piston mass is reduced and therefore reversal losses have been reduced. This is increasingly important as revs go higher since the reversal loss varies as the square of the piston velocity. Sorry again but the profession has had me out of town and then I was in Canada with the family for an extended holiday season. Malcolm >>> Less material and less surface >>towards the cylinder walls reduce friction and reduce fuel consumption. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Sorry for the long delay!!!!! No problem at all! Glad to see you again. > The big reason for reduction in piston size is that piston mass is > reduced and therefore reversal losses have been reduced. This is > increasingly important as revs go higher since the reversal loss > varies as the square of the piston velocity. That makes sense. I've got the engine almost ready to drop out. Would have been this weekend but it'll be wicked cold in Wisconsin this weekend, so it's going to wait. I'll post post-mortem pictures once have them. |
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