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Car Forum / Saab Cars / October 2004What exactly is "free wheeling"
I love the look of the older Saabs and have been keeping my out for a nice one but what is this bit that I keep reading about " freewheeling". It has something to do with the front axel assy or clutch??? > I love the look of the older Saabs and have been keeping my out for a nice > one but what is this bit that I keep reading about " freewheeling". It has > something to do with the front axel assy or clutch??? "Freewheeling" is what you do on a bicycle when you stop pedaling, i.e. the drive wheel is disconnected from the power source when the rpm of the power source is lower than the rpm of the drive wheel. This was common with two stroke engines as they were commonly lubricated by oil mixed with the fuel and coasting down a long hill would provide too little oil for the engine. The freewheel was carried over by Saab to the earliest four stroke engines as many drivers liked to use it. My first car, a Saab 99 with the 1.7 liter engine, had a freewheel (located between the clutch and the gearbox) and I used it all the time as an automatic clutch. I used the clutch only for starting, stopping and an occational quick gear change. All other gear changes was done using the freewheel instead of the clutch. The freewheel was removed with the introduction of the 1.85 liter engine in the Saab 99. The more powerful engines was too much to handle for the freewheel.  SignatureG?ran Larsson http://www.mitt-eget.com/saab/ > > I love the look of the older Saabs and have been keeping my out for a nice > > one but what is this bit that I keep reading about " freewheeling". It has [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > liter engine in the Saab 99. The more powerful engines was too much to > handle for the freewheel. Off-the-wall thought: Most U.S. states have laws forbidding free-wheeling. I wonder how the old Saabs with automatic free-wheeling conformed to this. Of course, there's also the question of how this prohibition was ever enforced... > Off-the-wall thought: Most U.S. states have laws forbidding > free-wheeling. Really? I've driven with freewheel for years & not known (or cared) about that. Why? > I wonder how the old Saabs with automatic > free-wheeling conformed to this. Well, there's a lever where you can lock it out, but what's the fun in that? > Of course, there's also the > question of how this prohibition was ever enforced... I can't imagine a scenario which would involve anyone caring about it. Hell, the cops aren't even allowed to pull people over for not wearing freaking _seatbelts_ in this state. Dave Hinz >Hell, the cops aren't even allowed to pull people over for not wearing >freaking _seat belts_ in this state. > >Dave Hinz If they note that you are un belted, they will find another excuse Malcolm >>Hell, the cops aren't even allowed to pull people over for not wearing >>freaking _seat belts_ in this state. > > If they note that you are un belted, they will find another excuse I wish they could, but they can't. So instead, I get to go out in the middle of the night to help some dumbass who would otherwise have been just busted for drunk driving, but is instead nearly, mostly, or very dead. Unfortunately, the cops here aren't allowed to pull you over if the only thing you're doing wrong is trying to kill yourself by not wearing a seatbelt. Ahem. Not that I feel strongly about this or anything. > > Off-the-wall thought: Most U.S. states have laws forbidding > > free-wheeling. > > Really? I've driven with freewheel for years & not known (or cared) about > that. Why? Don't know. But driving instructors will tell you that you have to be in a gear at all time. When I had UK driving lessons many years ago, I was told to approach each junction as: 5-change-4-change-3-change-2- change-1 and stop. It was a pain in the neck that I never practiced afterwards. > > > Off-the-wall thought: Most U.S. states have laws forbidding > > > free-wheeling. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > change-1 and stop. It was a pain in the neck that I never practiced > afterwards. Sounds like reasonable advice if you're driving a fully-loaded 18-wheeler. The laws against free-wheeling date back to the earliest days of the automobile. The thought was that you'd lose control of your vehicle if you were free-wheeling down a steep grade. Given the brakes of those days, it probably wasn't too far out of line with reality. To enforce the law, however, the cop's going to have be sitting in your lap. > > > Off-the-wall thought: Most U.S. states have laws forbidding > > > free-wheeling. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > change-1 and stop. It was a pain in the neck that I never practiced > afterwards. Apparently they don't teach that any more. Stick in 4th or 3rd until you're really slow then declutch. Like you do. Personally, when approaching roundabouts with the possibility of a quick negotiation, I love 5th - 3rd changes - then power through ( or stop quickly ! ). Graham > > > > Off-the-wall thought: Most U.S. states have laws forbidding > > > > free-wheeling. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Personally, when approaching roundabouts with the possibility of a quick negotiation, I love > 5th - 3rd changes - then power through ( or stop quickly ! ). Another peculiar official method that they teach at UK driving schools is shuffling the steering wheel. The idea is apparently that since you must have both hands at the steering wheel at all times, then it follows that the arms may be conflicting with each other if one of your hand is allowed to enter the other hand's territory. Again having reasonable strong arms, I find it easier to just wind the steering wheel round with one hand if necessary, this was also what I originally learned in DK. However, they sometimes show TV programmes here with real police chasing and I'm quite amazed to see the UK police drivers furiously shuffling the steering wheel when chasing villains. >> > > > Off-the-wall thought: Most U.S. states have laws forbidding >> > > > free-wheeling. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > UK police drivers furiously shuffling the steering wheel when chasing > villains. Yes, this is also still taught in Australia. It's an absolute joke - far more dangerous as you can't get full wheel lock, or even close to it, in the time it takes to make a reasonable turn. The only person I know who actually drives like that is a friend who has not only been in more accidents than anyone I know - he has caused all of them. He looks like Mr Magoo when reversing out of a parking space or going around a round-about!!! Starman from Oz >> Of course, there's also the >> question of how this prohibition was ever enforced... >I can't imagine a scenario which would involve anyone caring about it. >Hell, the cops aren't even allowed to pull people over for not wearing >freaking _seatbelts_ in this state. Wierd.. You'd have though US lawmakers would pull their heads out of the sane and make wearing seatbelts compulsory everywhere in the USA by now. I wonder if there are any uniform laws about the use and fitting of child-safety devices, harnesses and seats in cars in the US? Wearing of seatbelts in cars is compulsory in all Australian states and territories. I saw my first seat-belt equipped bus yesterday too. It's a very serious offence to be caught not wearing a seatbelt in a car (or small van/truck) here. The thing that bothers me more though is idiots who talk on hand-held cellphones while driving.... grrrr The older C900's don't have drink holders or any easy way to install brackets for mounting mobile phones, GPS units, or other small electronic devices so it's probably a Good Thing in some respects since it reduces the temptation to be distracted by phones, or trying to hold a drink, while driving. But common-sense would tell you that it'd make sense to have devices available to make it more safe to use things like mobile phones while driving. I guess all the GM-built Saab's have drink holders and much easier ways to mount brakcets for phones, etc. than the pre-GM Saab's did. The inverse ways that technology changes affect our driving habits is an interesting subject but getting outside the scope of the newsgroup. 8-) Feel free to carry it over to my C900 Workshop forums though.... Craig. SignatureCraig Dewick - craig@circlet.apana.org.au - Founder/maintainer of the SunShack at www.sunshack.org - Operator of Jedi (an APANA Sydney PoP) - please visit www.jedi.apana.org.au or www.sydney.apana.org.au for more detailed information Lover of SpamAssassin - high quality open-source spam killing for the masses! > Wierd.. You'd have though US lawmakers would pull their heads out of the > sane and make wearing seatbelts compulsory everywhere in the USA by now. Oh, there are laws (state by state, so pick which one of the 50 you'd like to talk about), but in some states it's not an offense you can be pulled over for; they only ticket you if they pull you over for something else. > I > wonder if there are any uniform laws about the use and fitting of > child-safety devices, harnesses and seats in cars in the US? Yes, and I think they can pull drivers over for not having the kids properly restrained. I can check with the Sheriff, I'll see him this evening. (he's also one of our firefighters). > > Of course, there's also the question of how this prohibition > > was ever enforced... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > wonder if there are any uniform laws about the use and fitting of > child-safety devices, harnesses and seats in cars in the US? The U.S. does not have Federal traffic or vehicle laws. These are left to the individual States to enact. There is a Uniform Traffic Code which serves as a guide for the states and most conform closely to it. There are Federal "requirements" which the Feds get the states to adopt by threatening to withhold highway funding. This is how the 55 mph speed limit was imposed from on high. > Wearing of seatbelts in cars is compulsory in all Australian states > and territories. I saw my first seat-belt equipped bus yesterday too. [snip] >> The freewheel was carried over by Saab to the earliest four stroke >> engines as many drivers liked to use it. My first car, a Saab 99 with [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> liter engine in the Saab 99. The more powerful engines was too much to >> handle for the freewheel. >Off-the-wall thought: Most U.S. states have laws forbidding >free-wheeling. I wonder how the old Saabs with automatic >free-wheeling conformed to this. Of course, there's also the >question of how this prohibition was ever enforced... It's illegal here in Australia too, for obvious reasons! Australia wasn't really a strong market for Saab's until the mid-70's so the 'free-wheeling' Saab's probably weren't an issue here. Craig. SignatureCraig Dewick - craig@circlet.apana.org.au - Founder/maintainer of the SunShack at www.sunshack.org - Operator of Jedi (an APANA Sydney PoP) - please visit www.jedi.apana.org.au or www.sydney.apana.org.au for more detailed information Lover of SpamAssassin - high quality open-source spam killing for the masses! Thanks for that great explanation. I thought that it might be something like that but I couldnt see it being very practical and expect that it would be prone to wear and breakage. My guess is that many people locked it in position. > > I love the look of the older Saabs and have been keeping my out for a nice > > one but what is this bit that I keep reading about " freewheeling". It has [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > liter engine in the Saab 99. The more powerful engines was too much to > handle for the freewheel. > Thanks for that great explanation. I thought that it might be something like > that but I couldnt see it being very practical and expect that it would be > prone to wear and breakage. My guess is that many people locked it in > position. Nope, everybody I know that had two-stroke Saabs used the free-wheel. As Göran pointed out it was very practical as you only needed the clutch to start the car, to stop it you put in the neutral gear and just braked (a bit increase on the brake wear though). I was too young to drive one myself but I remenber the last 99 with free-wheel we had, a real beauty! Signatureth >>>I love the look of the older Saabs and have been keeping my out for a > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >>liter engine in the Saab 99. The more powerful engines was too much to >>handle for the freewheel. >> Thanks for that great explanation. I thought that it might be something >> like that but I couldnt see it being very practical and expect that it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > bit increase on the brake wear though). I was too young to drive one > myself but I remenber the last 99 with free-wheel we had, a real beauty! I think I'm missing something. I understand what the freewheel does -- it just eliminates engine drag -- but the procedure you just gave for coming to a stop is exactly what I do, and I have no freewheel. -Aaron >>>Thanks for that great explanation. I thought that it might be something >>>like that but I couldnt see it being very practical and expect that it [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > -Aaron Maybe a bit bad example, you're right, it's what I also do with a standard manual transmission. The point was that the clutch is only needed when you start the car. Signatureth > >> Thanks for that great explanation. I thought that it might be something > >> like that but I couldnt see it being very practical and expect that it [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > -Aaron As I understood, the freewheel was provided on the two-strokes as on the overrun the engines were rather jerky, and so this got over the problem. The V4 95/96/97 used the same gearbox so got the freewheel by default. I am not sure why the early 99s used it but it disappeared as the power went up. We had a Saab 96 Sport 2-stroke, at home in the UK, great car, but only 10 mpg when pushing it!! SignatureRichard Sutherland-Smith 19 Webb Road, Wanganui 5001, New Zealand > As I understood, the freewheel was provided on the two-strokes as on the > overrun the engines were rather jerky, and so this got over the problem. Jerky? > The V4 95/96/97 used the same gearbox so got the freewheel by default. Well, they switched from a 6-roller freewheel to a 10-roller freewheel for the V4, to handle the higher torque, but yes. > I am not sure why the early 99s used it but it disappeared as the power > went up. > We had a Saab 96 Sport 2-stroke, at home in the UK, great car, but only > 10 mpg when pushing it!! Really? I was usually getting in the high 20s/low 30s for MPG with a red triple-carb engine. Is this one of the 900cc monsters or something, velocity stacks and all that? > > As I understood, the freewheel was provided on the two-strokes as on the > > overrun the engines were rather jerky, and so this got over the problem. > > Jerky? as opposed to smooth!! > > The V4 95/96/97 used the same gearbox so got the freewheel by default. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > triple-carb engine. Is this one of the 900cc monsters or something, > velocity stacks and all that? Perhaps I pushed it very hard in my youth. It was a standard 845cc Sport (Monte Carlo) with those big comfy front seats. I calculated that for its size of engine, it was using petrol,at the same rate as a Formula 1 car of that time. White CEL 146B IIRC, still around? SignatureRichard Sutherland-Smith 19 Webb Road, Wanganui 5001, New Zealand > Nope, everybody I know that had two-stroke Saabs used the free-wheel. As > Göran pointed out it was very practical as you only needed the clutch to > start the car, to stop it you put in the neutral gear and just braked (a > bit increase on the brake wear though). The lever to engage/disengage the freewheel could also be operate by your foot and some drivers uses it to suit different driving conditions. Drivers who are used with freewheeling and then drives another car sometimes makes the misstake to try to change gears without using the clutch. Another popular misstake people driving older SAABs do when driving another car is try to change gears using the directional indicator (turn signal) lever. >> ... to stop it you put in the neutral gear and just braked (a >> bit increase on the brake wear though). but less wear on the clutch. and brake pads are a lot easier to replace than a clutch > .... Another popular misstake people driving older SAABs do when > driving another car is try to change gears using the directional > indicator (turn signal) lever. When I switch from the V4s to the 900 I reach for the ign. key in the wrong place -- MH '72 97 '77 96 '78 95 '79 96 '87 900T8 http://go.to/saab96 >>> ... to stop it you put in the neutral gear and just braked (a >>> bit increase on the brake wear though). > > but less wear on the clutch. and brake pads are a lot easier to replace than > a clutch Well, on the two-stroke, an engine remove/replace for the clutch can be done with one person and no hoist, so I'm not sure it's a big deal either way. >> .... Another popular misstake people driving older SAABs do when >> driving another car is try to change gears using the directional >> indicator (turn signal) lever. > > When I switch from the V4s to the 900 I reach for the ign. key in the wrong > place Yup. > Thanks for that great explanation. I thought that it might be something like > that but I couldnt see it being very practical and expect that it would be > prone to wear and breakage. My guess is that many people locked it in > position. I recall that Waartburgs ( also 2 stroke ? ) had freewheeling hubs and Land Rovers used to have it as an option. Graham > I recall that Waartburgs ( also 2 stroke ? ) had freewheeling hubs But I think that is different, more like a differential lock. > and Land Rovers used to have it as an option. Years ago (late 1970s) I used a Ford Bronco that had the lockable front wheel hubs too. -- MH > > I recall that Waartburgs ( also 2 stroke ? ) had freewheeling hubs > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Years ago (late 1970s) I used a Ford Bronco that had the lockable front > wheel hubs too. Yes. My mate's Suzuki X-90 (circa 1997) has lockable freewheels at the font. They are common on 4WD off-roaders. The logic is that freewheeling front wheels are good for steering when foot is off the accelerator. Otherwise you can lose steerage under engine breaking on downhill slippy bits. You can therefore regard freewheeling front hubs (on off-roaders) as "passive ABS" if you like. Also, with the drag at the back you are more likely to stay facing downhill. This reason is completely different from that relating to Saab's 2-stroke days (as provided by Goran and with which I completely agree, I hasten to add). Adrian > Thanks for that great explanation. I thought that it might be something like > that but I couldnt see it being very practical and expect that it would be > prone to wear and breakage. My guess is that many people locked it in > position. Nope; one-way slip clutches are pretty robust when matched to the horsepower of the system. It requires you to "blip" the throttle a bit to bring it up to the gears, then go into it. If you stomp directly, it's jarring and probably bad for parts. But on the pre-oil-injected 2-stroke engines, it was mandatory because the lubrication came in through the carbs with the gasoline. |
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