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Car Forum / Saab Cars / December 2004

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Saab 9-5 noisy engine - Timing and Balancer Shaft chains?

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Wheels of Error - 21 Nov 2004 10:21 GMT
I have a '98 9-5 2.3 SE with LPT.  I bought it in September and
immediately had it serviced at Broadways in Ealing, London (a
specialist non franchise Saab shop).  They did a nice job and in their
report they mentioned the engine being a bit noisy, but made no
further recommendations.

Some weeks later my throttle position sensor went, and I had to have
the throttle body replaced under warranty at a franchised Saab dealer
(West End Saab in Alperton, London).  They too did a fine job, but
made no reference to engine noise.

Finally, last week I had my driving seat reupholstered at Two Strokes
to Turbos in Hatfield.  They're primarily a Saab breakers - they
currently have 140 cars in various states of dismantling - but they
have a large, well equipped workshop as well.  When I got my car back
from them they said they had some bad news for me.

When they moved my car around, they noted that the engine was "very
noisy".  They didn't do a visual investigation, but from (presumably)
listening carefully, deduced that the timing and balancer chains had
stretched beyond the ability of the adjusters to take up the slack.
They concluded that I had to have the chains etc replaced right away
as the engine was in Imminent danger of Catastrophic Failure.

You can imagine how I felt - I've only had the car two months, and
although it has 120,000 miles on the clock, I thought it was going to
be highly reliable, thanks to its full service history and Saab's
reputation for ironclad build quality.

Two Strokes said they could do the work for me right away, but it
would take a couple of days.  In the meantime I could carry on using
the courtesy car they had lent me (a dreadful old 900).  How much?
Oh, about 1500 GBP, plus VAT!

Fifteen hundred quid!  I only paid 3500 for the whole car!  How much
was a new engine?  2300 he said.

I decided not to take up their offer, as I figured Broadways would do
it for me cheaper.  Then as I drove away I started getting suspicious.

Call me cynical, but but if you had a customer who was clearly a
perfectionist, and seemed willing to spend money on relative trivia
(e.g. 340 GBP on having the seat restored) wouldn't you try to sell
him loads of extra stuff by exaggerating any existing problems?

So I called Broadways and explained the situation to them.  They said
(bless their hearts) bring the car round immediately and we'll have a
look.  This I did (driving at 1500 rpm or less the whole way!) and the
manager and top mechanic came out in the rain and had a thorough
listen to the engine.

They allowed for the fact that the engine was warm (it makes its worst
noise when it's cold obviously) and concluded I need NOT worry.  They
said;

1.    Early 9-5s are known to be a bit noisy
2.    They had heard a lot worse than this
3.    If I was going to keep the car, it would be a worthwhile
investment - eventually.  But there was certainly nothing "Imminent"
about this "Catastrophic Failure".

Their recommendation?  Bring it round in the new year or the spring
and they would check it again to see if it had got any worse.  In the
mean time, always give it a chance to warm up in the mornings before
driving off, and keep a watch on the oil light as once stuff really
starts to wear, metal filings end up blocking the filter/pump.

However, they did say that in their experience, the early 9-5s do have
problems, and the 2.3s more so than the 2.0s.  

They would not comment - at all - when I voiced my suspicions about
Two Strokes' motives.  Can't blame them, laws of libel and all that.
And anyway, being a cynic, would I believe them if they DID say
something nasty about Two Strokes?  They're competitors after all!

So - question to group, especially UK members.  Who would you believe?
Is there a history of timing/balancer chain failures on early 9-5s?
Does 1500 quid sound excessive?

Generally, what problems do early 9-5s have?  The SID and the ACC I
know about (and both have been done on mine), the throttle PS I (now)
know about, anything else crop up regularly?

TIA
Johannes H Andersen - 21 Nov 2004 11:29 GMT
> I have a '98 9-5 2.3 SE with LPT.  I bought it in September and
> immediately had it serviced at Broadways in Ealing, London (a
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> be highly reliable, thanks to its full service history and Saab's
> reputation for ironclad build quality.

Saabs are highly reliable. The timing chain is a better solution than
rubber timing belts that have to be replaced more frequently and are
much more likely to break and take the engine with it. Cost of timing
chain is more reasonable when looking at the mileage you get, but the
previous owner obviously took a financial decision to sell the car
before embarking on expensive maintenance; that's not so unusual. Why
sell a good car? Hence you should expect some deferred maintenance
cost when buying a 120,000 miles car. However, £1500 sounds a bit
expensive, try to shop around at Saab dealers for £1000.
 
Timing chain replacement is often discussed here. There are arguments
both ways. The argument for is that the chains has to be replaced at
some point anyway, and you'll get a smoother engine. If you replace it
now, then it will last the car out. But as the other dealer said, the
chain is not likely to be a problem if you don't replace it now, just
keep an eye (and ear) on it.
Charles Christacopoulos - 21 Nov 2004 11:47 GMT
> So - question to group, especially UK members.  Who would you believe?
> Is there a history of timing/balancer chain failures on early 9-5s?
> Does 1500 quid sound excessive?

No knowledge of 9-5 so no attempt to answer the specifics.

1500 sounds a lot at an independet garage.  If it feels you are being
taken for a ride then it is because you are.

Perhaps 1500 would be reasonable at a SAAB garage where they will charge
50-70GBP per hour labour.  All the pulleys and possibly tensioner could
(would?) need replacing and they will not come cheap from SAAB.  IF they
come from a used car ... how new/good will they be?  Go back to the
franchised dealer ... see what they say and more importantly what would
they charge for the job.

IMHO the upholsterer has seen you coming.  The nice independent is nice
to you (if you sell your saab you are no longer a customer) ... take the
 third opinion and if they tell you it needs work then it does need work.

Charles

PS.  I have never felt that Western SAAB at Edinburgh has taken me for a
ride.  I have two reservations on them (a) they should have replaced a
pipe under warranty which they did not (b) they could not find a fault
of another dealer ... which they now own anyway.  The latter, SAAB Perth
did take me for a real ride ... there again they have lost the
franchise.  Not all SAAB dealers are perfect.  If you visit the dealer
get an idea of the cost of the parts.  See if their workshop is fully
busy (I have yet to see an emtpy ramp at Edinburgh).

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KeithG - 21 Nov 2004 17:58 GMT
if it is noisy, it could be an idler pulley. The 2.3 is very reliable.
Balance chains and timing chains seem to last a VERY long time (well
over 2x your 110kmi) The problematic 2.3 chains were with the early ones
(91-93?)  Oil change interval seems to plague the later Saab engines.
This is not a reflection on the engine, but a reflection if the extended
oil change intervals that Saab recommends. I think it is 10kmi! This is
WAY out of line especially with regular oils. Keep it it in the 3k range
with regular oils and 5k or so with synthetics and you will be rewarded
with a long lived Saab engine just like the older ones...

The idler pulleys seem to be a relatively common maintenance item which
is overlooked. When you change the belt, I would suggest changing the
pulleys as well. Make sure this noise is not a failing pulley... I had
an engine noise in my '97 9k and it turned out to be a pulley on its
last leg...

KeithG

> I have a '98 9-5 2.3 SE with LPT.  I bought it in September and
> immediately had it serviced at Broadways in Ealing, London (a
> specialist non franchise Saab shop).  They did a nice job and in their
> report they mentioned the engine being a bit noisy, but made no
> further recommendations.

<snip>

> TIA
Tom@saabtech - 22 Nov 2004 08:50 GMT
>I have a '98 9-5 2.3 SE with LPT.  I bought it in September and
> immediately had it serviced at Broadways in Ealing, London (a
[quoted text clipped - 80 lines]
>
> TIA
That is a bit on the steep side, on the saab menu pricing cd rom the price
for both chains and all gears, tensioners,  parts and labour comes to
?1196.22 including vat, but does not include oil or antifreeze so allow
another ?40.00.
Dave - 22 Nov 2004 22:17 GMT
Just had my m reg 900 done needed sprockets and chains etc had new clutch
and engine mount plus other maintainance bits done too inc leaking water
pump, drive belt and idlers  for ?1560, so if its "just" chains should be
less at a guess.
Dave

> > That is a bit on the steep side, on the saab menu pricing cd rom the
> > price
> for both chains and all gears, tensioners,  parts and labour comes to
> ?1196.22 including vat, but does not include oil or antifreeze so allow
> another ?40.00.
Johannes H Andersen - 27 Nov 2004 10:50 GMT
> Just had my m reg 900 done needed sprockets and chains etc had new clutch
> and engine mount plus other maintainance bits done too inc leaking water
> pump, drive belt and idlers  for £1560, so if its "just" chains should be
> less at a guess.
> Dave

But there is no point in replacing the chains without replacing the sprockets.
Also a good idea to replace the water pump at the same time while the 'bits'
are out.
gsmpycus@search26.com - 06 Dec 2004 13:23 GMT
http://www.ardice.com/Arts/Music/Bands_and_Artists/A/Adjusters,_The/
John Hudson - 23 Nov 2004 17:19 GMT
I know of a two man Saab outfit that is based in Hitchin , Hertfordshire. I
am wondering if they would be able to help you. I have no connection with
them other than being a satisfied customer for admittedly smallish jobs.
> I have a '98 9-5 2.3 SE with LPT.  I bought it in September and
> immediately had it serviced at Broadways in Ealing, London (a
> specialist non franchise Saab shop).  They did a nice job and in their
> report they mentioned the engine being a bit noisy, but made no
> further recommendations.
Wheels of Error - 24 Nov 2004 21:47 GMT
>I know of a two man Saab outfit that is based in Hitchin , Hertfordshire. I
>am wondering if they would be able to help you. I have no connection with
>them other than being a satisfied customer for admittedly smallish jobs.

Sounds useful, would you post their details?  Thanks
John Hudson - 26 Nov 2004 11:11 GMT
> >I know of a two man Saab outfit that is based in Hitchin , Hertfordshire. I
> >am wondering if they would be able to help you. I have no connection with
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> It is now a one man outfit! Called Swedish Car Care on 01462 440123. I
suggest you  E-mail me direct for any further information.
 
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