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Car Forum / Saab Cars / February 2005

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Saab to be sold?  ...GM Denies!

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Tex - 24 Feb 2005 13:01 GMT
Saab to be sold?...

  http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=businessNews&storyID=7722723

The reasons laid out in the article make sense as a last ditch effort on the
part of GM to get some form of return on their Saab venture.  However, the
article ignores the fact that GM is now much more intertwined with
Saab...namely through its model lineup:  the Saabaru 92x, the upcoming
trailblazer/97x and cadillac BLS to be produced at Trollhattan.  It wouldnt
be easy to disentangle themselves from all of that.

An hour later, GM denies...

 http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=businessNews&storyID=7723756

Would a sale of Saab be good?  It would certainly lose the marketing power
of GM.  There'd be no guarantee that Trollhattan would remain open even with
a new buyer.  Does Saab need its own manufacturing plant to _be_ Saab?
Would they not be better off spending money designing, engineering and
marketing cars, rather than actually building them? Or perhaps just build
the engines?

- tex
Andrew Stephenson - 24 Feb 2005 16:15 GMT
> [...]  Does Saab need its own manufacturing plant to _be_ Saab?
> Would they not be better off spending money designing,
> engineering and marketing cars, rather than actually building
> them? Or perhaps just build the engines?

Like, say, Lotus?  Now _there_'s a sad story.  :-(
Signature

Andrew Stephenson

Dima - 24 Feb 2005 18:00 GMT
I think that that Saab will be a lot better under Renault or Nissan. GM's
leadership for Saab was disastrous, a change could be welcome. Nissan has
been extremely successful recently, and Renault makes nice cars. Besides,
because of traditional rivalry between Renault and Peugeot, perhaps Renault
could do to Saab what Peugeot did to Citroen - which was, let it be itself?

-Dima

> Saab to be sold?...
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> - tex
J.  Harris - 24 Feb 2005 20:40 GMT
Carlos Ghosn's wildly successful turn-around of Nissan (+/- 40% owned by
Renault) is to end April 1st.  Turn him loose on Saab!

> I think that that Saab will be a lot better under Renault or Nissan. GM's
> leadership for Saab was disastrous, a change could be welcome. Nissan has
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> -Dima
Pooh Bear - 25 Feb 2005 01:11 GMT
> Saab to be sold?...
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> trailblazer/97x and cadillac BLS to be produced at Trollhattan.  It wouldnt
> be easy to disentangle themselves from all of that.

Your post made me go Google the Cadillac BLS.

If GM says Trollhattan's survival depends on that car then Trollhattan's finished
!

They actually think that car will appeal specifically to the *European* market ?
They're dreaming or on drugs or both.

Looks like an undersize Escalade from the front. The ultimate bad taste 'bling' /
gangster look vehicle.

Saab would benefit from being detached from all those projects IMHO.

> An hour later, GM denies...
>
>   http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=businessNews&storyID=7723756
>
> Would a sale of Saab be good?  It would certainly lose the marketing power
> of GM.

Thankfully it would also lose the apparent desire of GM to convert an
attractively uniquely quirky and technically competent car manufacturer into some
halfbreed shadow of its former self.

97x looks to me like Saab meets GMC !

>  There'd be no guarantee that Trollhattan would remain open even with
> a new buyer.  Does Saab need its own manufacturing plant to _be_ Saab?
> Would they not be better off spending money designing, engineering and
> marketing cars, rather than actually building them? Or perhaps just build
> the engines?

Only so much is ever made on site anyway.

Graham
Craig's C900 Site - 27 Feb 2005 22:53 GMT
>Your post made me go Google the Cadillac BLS.

>If GM says Trollhattan's survival depends on that car then Trollhattan's finished
>!

>They actually think that car will appeal specifically to the *European* market ?
>They're dreaming or on drugs or both.

>Looks like an undersize Escalade from the front. The ultimate bad taste 'bling' /
>gangster look vehicle.

Here in Australia the 'ultimate bad taste gansta-look vehicle' is the PT
Cruiser. Damn those are f@#king ugly cars.

>Saab would benefit from being detached from all those projects IMHO.

Saab would benefit from being a seperate marque all on it's own again. I
don't see any reason why GM wants Saab except (for reasons I outlined in a
couple of posts earlier) because Saab has rights to technology that GM wants
to own. Most notably with regard to turbochargers and some aspects of engine
design, but there's bound to be a lot more than just that.

>97x looks to me like Saab meets GMC !

It's typical GM - just look at all their 'trucks' (aka SUV's, or whatever
the 'giant pickup' market wants to label them) and see how that shape is
coming into every new vehicle GM's designers stick their noses into.

Regards,

Craig.
Signature

Craig's Saab C900 Page --> http://lios.apana.org.au/~c900 Sydney, NSW Australia
   Craig's Saab C900 Workshop -- For all Saab C900 Enthusiasts world-wide!
 http://www.saab900classic.net http://www.saab900.org c900@lios.apana.org.au
 Come and explore our site, and check out our web-forums, mailing list, etc.

Martin Rich - 25 Feb 2005 07:52 GMT
>Would a sale of Saab be good?  It would certainly lose the marketing power
>of GM.  

Is the marketing power that big a deal?  In Europe Saab is marketed
quite separately from Vauxhall/Opel and has separate dealer networks;
I assumed the same was true elsewhere?  The real economies of scale -
and the reason that a completely independent Saab would probably not
be viable -  are to do with design and manufacturing.

>There'd be no guarantee that Trollhattan would remain open even with
>a new buyer.  Does Saab need its own manufacturing plant to _be_ Saab?

Carlos Ghosn (mentioned elsewhere in the thread) was nicknamed 'Le
Cost Cutter' and he certainly made it clear that he was prepared to
move production away from Nissan's Sunderland plant, which has a
tremendous reputation for productivity, if they didn't make a strong
enough case for a new model to be built there.

Nissan/Renault in some combination would be a good fit with Saab in
terms of product range, but don't expect a particularly easy-going
management style if they take over.  Incidentally GM and Renault
already have a joint venture for delivery vans (Vauxhall Vivaro =
Renault Trafic = Nissan Primastar all made in the same factory in
Luton) so there is some precendent for sharing engineering knowledge,
as would be necessary if Renault find themselves making cars based on
GM's Vectra

Martin
th - 25 Feb 2005 17:57 GMT
>>Would a sale of Saab be good?  It would certainly lose the marketing power
>>of GM.  
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> and the reason that a completely independent Saab would probably not
> be viable -  are to do with design and manufacturing.

In Sweden the Saab/Opel dealer network is not separated. Most Saab
dealers also sell Opel, although in some cases they have Opel cars in
the basement/ground floor and Saab cars on the first floor.

>>There'd be no guarantee that Trollhattan would remain open even with
>>a new buyer.  Does Saab need its own manufacturing plant to _be_ Saab?

The question would be how to obtain all parts that are now "GM common"
parts (brakes, the new 6 cyl engine, etc.)

> Carlos Ghosn (mentioned elsewhere in the thread) was nicknamed 'Le
> Cost Cutter' and he certainly made it clear that he was prepared to
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> as would be necessary if Renault find themselves making cars based on
> GM's Vectra

Volvo already tried cooperating with Renault with little success. Saab,
being another Swedish company, could possibly have the same problems in
terms of culture, management style etc. Saab/GM and Volvo/Ford
cooperation is probably simpler although there is a difference in
management levels as Swedish engineers are much more independent in
their work. Basically a US engineer does what the boss tells him to do
even if he knows that the boss is wrong. A Swedish engineer at the
lowest level typically makes makes the same kind of decisions as the
lowest level US manager and is more prone to put in question the
decisions of his nearest manager. Thus a Swedish department manager
typically discusses best with a US division manager as they are on the
same level from a responsibility point of view.

The Japanese have a similar way of working as the Swedes. Decisions are
more taken on consensus basis rather than one manager deciding in most
aspects (as is the typical French way of working). So why not, a
Saab/Nissan cooperation could be successful. Saab has already used a
Nissan automatic transmission in the 9-5 and why not use more Japanese
parts. These are anyway known to have much better quality than US parts,
just look at the semiconductor market: it was not until the Japanese
manufacturers entered the market that quality and reliability of complex
semiconductor products like memories really improved. The US
manufacturers were not fast enough in improving their quality and
quickly lost most of the market.

Generally Japanese cars are considered to be quite reliable, this can
also be seen in annual statistics from mandatory tests. From several
people in this group it seems that GM reputation is quite bad in terms
of quality (I've only noticed it on the really poor fast-rusting brakes
of the 9-5). Thus, Saab being sold to Nissan should improve the car
quality compared to a GM ownership.

Signature

th

Dave Hinz - 25 Feb 2005 18:26 GMT
> The question would be how to obtain all parts that are now "GM common"
> parts (brakes, the new 6 cyl engine, etc.)

Well, that's no different than the Ford engines in the 1960's to 1980,
or the GM power steering rack in the c900, or the battery, or any
other part made by not-Saab.  Not a concern.

> Volvo already tried cooperating with Renault with little success. Saab,
> being another Swedish company, could possibly have the same problems in
> terms of culture, management style etc.

Yes, the French are difficult to deal with on an engineering standpoint,
at least from a USA'n perspective.  And the PRV-6 engine was an
unmitigated disaster.  The joke at the time is that the French didn't
tell the Swedes where the meetings were, so they did it themselves.

> Basically a US engineer does what the boss tells him to do
> even if he knows that the boss is wrong.

Well... only if they can't get away with making it right while the
boss _thinks_ they're doing it the boss's way.  Direct personal experience.
(I also no longer work there.  Hmmmm...)

> A Swedish engineer at the
> lowest level typically makes makes the same kind of decisions as the
> lowest level US manager and is more prone to put in question the
> decisions of his nearest manager. Thus a Swedish department manager
> typically discusses best with a US division manager as they are on the
> same level from a responsibility point of view.

I would tend to agree.  If engineering quality of Saab is the rule,
rather than the exception in Swedish engineering, I think you're right.
Then again - Husqvarna, or any of the other Swedish products I own
are equally well designed and built.

> Thus, Saab being sold to Nissan should improve the car
> quality compared to a GM ownership.

I can't see it being worse.
th - 25 Feb 2005 20:24 GMT
>>The question would be how to obtain all parts that are now "GM common"
>>parts (brakes, the new 6 cyl engine, etc.)
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> other part made by not-Saab.  Not a concern.
>  
You're right there. Nobody will buy Saab if the parts/subsystem supply
chain is not secured, whatever the source.

>>Volvo already tried cooperating with Renault with little success. Saab,
>>being another Swedish company, could possibly have the same problems in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> unmitigated disaster.  The joke at the time is that the French didn't
> tell the Swedes where the meetings were, so they did it themselves.

Now you're a bit too nasty. French engineers are well educated, skilled
and quite nice to work with. Any cooperation problems should be found on
other levels.

>>Basically a US engineer does what the boss tells him to do
>>even if he knows that the boss is wrong.
>
> Well... only if they can't get away with making it right while the
> boss _thinks_ they're doing it the boss's way.  Direct personal experience.
> (I also no longer work there.  Hmmmm...)

Probably the situation has diverged the last decade. I've met/heard
about both the _very_ management controlled type but there seem to be a
trend towards a more independent engineering staff, maybe the trends are
 more linked to company culture than to the society.

>>A Swedish engineer at the
>>lowest level typically makes makes the same kind of decisions as the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Then again - Husqvarna, or any of the other Swedish products I own
> are equally well designed and built.

Don't forget Hasselblad cameras (not owned by many people), SKF
bearings, Scania trucks, Sandvik tools and Saab aircraft (the latter
luckily still mainly Swedish owned and managed)

>>Thus, Saab being sold to Nissan should improve the car
>>quality compared to a GM ownership.
>
> I can't see it being worse.

IS GM really that bad? Not being from US I have no generation long
prejudices towards a company that you never basically hear about in
Europe. Now we've lerned that Opel, Saab and Cadillac belong to that
group but otherwise it is quite anonymous over here. What are the other
GM brands that have caused this bad reputation?

Signature

th

Dave Hinz - 25 Feb 2005 20:37 GMT

>> Well, that's no different than the Ford engines in the 1960's to 1980,
>> or the GM power steering rack in the c900, or the battery, or any
>> other part made by not-Saab.  Not a concern.
>>  
> You're right there. Nobody will buy Saab if the parts/subsystem supply
> chain is not secured, whatever the source.

Right.  GM won't stop selling engines to Saab just because they're not
part of the same company.

>>>Volvo already tried cooperating with Renault with little success. Saab,
>>>being another Swedish company, could possibly have the same problems in
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>
> Now you're a bit too nasty.

That's possible.

> French engineers are well educated, skilled
> and quite nice to work with. Any cooperation problems should be found on
> other levels.

My experience differs, profoundly.  At least amongst the engineers
in the French division of my former employer, there were exactly two of
them who could be worked with.  Standards were disregarded (important
when you're designing medical equipment), schedules were ignored, and
a lot of passive-aggressive project non-participation was going on.
Maybe it was just a case of bad morale at a place which had been bought
by a large corporation, but I'm not sure about that.


>>>Basically a US engineer does what the boss tells him to do
>>>even if he knows that the boss is wrong.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> trend towards a more independent engineering staff, maybe the trends are
>   more linked to company culture than to the society.

Could be.  I'd rather work for a boss who hires me to be the expert
at something and _lets me_ be the expert at something, than a boss who
tells me where I should double-click my mouse.  

>>>A Swedish engineer at the
>>>lowest level typically makes makes the same kind of decisions as the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>> Then again - Husqvarna, or any of the other Swedish products I own
>> are equally well designed and built.

> Don't forget Hasselblad cameras (not owned by many people),

I sold mine, but loved it.  You know the Saab connection there, I assume?

> SKF
> bearings,

Use 'em all the time

>  Scania trucks, Sandvik tools

Got a bunch of those too.

> and Saab aircraft (the latter
> luckily still mainly Swedish owned and managed)

I really wish I had a Safir.  Looks like fun.

>>>Thus, Saab being sold to Nissan should improve the car
>>>quality compared to a GM ownership.

>> I can't see it being worse.

> IS GM really that bad? Not being from US I have no generation long
> prejudices towards a company that you never basically hear about in
> Europe.

Well, there are things happening now that never happened on the pure
Swedish cars.  Timing belts for starters.  Rubber bands do NOT belong
inside an engine, period.

> Now we've lerned that Opel, Saab and Cadillac belong to that
> group but otherwise it is quite anonymous over here. What are the other
> GM brands that have caused this bad reputation?

GM has a long history of engineering defects and "hidden recalls".
The Cadillac HT4100 engine (4.1 litre aluminum block V8) was a
(pardon) clusterfuck of biblical proportions.  Steel sleeves, aluminum
block, rubber sealing o-rings.  Thermal expansion between sleeves and
block differed enough that the sealing o-rings let coolant into the
oil (!), which is rarely good for, for instance, camshaft lobes and
all those spinny parts.  GM's "fix" was to dump that silver stop-leak
powder in (without telling the customer...) and hope for the best.  
Result?  Lots of plugged heater cores and radiators, and a temporary fix
for rubber o-rings.  They'd only pay out if things got ugly.

Hopefully this isn't where the 2.3L B235 engine problems will end up.
Having a b0rken one at the moment, the issue is close to my heart.
I can't help but think that some GM-ish engineering influence has
made that engine's PCV problems exist.  Maybe unfair, but it's my
opinion that priorities were GM-ized rather than being SAAB-ized.

Dave Hinz
 
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