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Car Forum / Saab Cars / May 2005The C900 hatch to make a comeback!
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/56431/900_turbo_set_to_be_reborn.html and: http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000493042484/ - tex NICE!!!! >http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/56431/900_turbo_set_to_be_reborn.html >and: http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000493042484/ Pity it has to be a Wsaabi or Saabaru in disguise. GM's still not taking the hint about stuffing around with the branding and trying to create models to fill their US-centric visions of what a Saab should be. Saab's a world-car, and any business that owns the company needs to be aware of that. Making it just like the other marques won't help in the long term. Craig.  SignatureCraig's Saab C900 Page --> http://lios.apana.org.au/~c900 Sydney, NSW Australia Craig's Saab C900 Workshop -- For all Saab C900 Enthusiasts world-wide! http://www.saab900classic.net http://www.saab900.org c900@lios.apana.org.au Come and explore our site, and check out our web-forums, mailing list, etc. http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/56431/900_turbo_set_to_be_reborn.html > and: http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000493042484/ Not a load lugger? Then it's hardly the successor to the C900 then, is it? The combi/coupe design was sheer genius ... it was a hatchback AND it was a load lugger. The best analysis I've seen of this news is over on SAAB Central forum board: <http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49648> "It's not going to have any connection to the C900 except for some intellectualy famished advertising man's utterly lame attempt to scrape a bit of credibility out of Saab's heritage to make up for a total lack of quality ideas. People wouldn't buy it if it looked like one (except a few nutters on here), they wouldn't tolerate a transmission that is so fragile that it requires a bit of skill to keep going, it wouldn't handle like a C900 because suspension standards have changed, it won't carry a load like a C900 (they say so themselves), it won't be totally (and unprofitably) over-engineered, it'll be replacing a car based on a Subaru, so just how the hell do these marketing prats think anyone is going to believe it will be "a spiritual successor to the C900"?" > http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/56431/900_turbo_set_to_be_reborn.html > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > it? The combi/coupe design was sheer genius ... it was a hatchback AND > it was a load lugger. But what for? If you need an estate, then there will soon be an estate 9-3. If there is space for a mountain bike, then that's good enough for me. The Audi A3 is a nice compact size, combining sportyness with reasonable load size. The load lugger feature of C900 came at a price; the excessive long overhang at the rear. > Not a load lugger? Then it's hardly the successor to the C900 then, is > it? The combi/coupe design was sheer genius ... it was a hatchback AND > it was a load lugger. Well, this is pure speculation. We're attempting to guess what they mean exactly by "load lugger". My interpretation is that they simply meant it wasn't going to be a wagon (like the combi...sport hatch/wagon), but a true hatch, like the C900 hatch. Secondly, "load lugger" sounds like the term a journalist might use, not official Saab diction. Third, we have no idea of the actual dimensional specs of the car, so to say one way or another based purely on a colloquial remark from an oscure auto-writer is wasted effort. > The best analysis I've seen of this news is over on SAAB Central forum > board: > <http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49648> "Best analysis"??? More like standard snobbist opining/whining. > "It's not going to have any connection to the C900 except for some > intellectualy famished advertising man's utterly lame attempt to scrape > a bit of credibility out of Saab's heritage to make up for a total lack > of quality ideas. People wouldn't buy it if it looked like one (except > a few nutters on here), they wouldn't tolerate a transmission that is > so fragile that it requires a bit of skill to keep going, And bringing back a gearbox that needs repairs would be a good thing? And to think there has never been a better gearbox built since. I actually view the problem more so as being related to the linkage. Without the shifter dipping directly into the gearbox Saab has had to rely on good linkage. I consider myself lucky to not be a snobbist/purist like this ding dong. It would be utterly dumb for Saab to build the exact same car they built in 1993. > it wouldn't > handle like a C900 because suspension standards have changed, it won't > carry a load like a C900 (they say so themselves), Again, this ("load lugger") was a quote from the auto-writer, not a direct Saab quote, so it's hard to say. > it won't be totally > (and unprofitably) over-engineered, Why should Saab not make money? > it'll be replacing a car based on a > Subaru, so just how the hell do these marketing prats think anyone is > going to believe it will be "a spiritual successor to the C900"?" Volvo underpinned their S40 with a Ford Focus...but look at it and drive it, and it looks & feels nothing like the Focus. Further the two articles are slightly contradictory: "underpinned by the next Impreza with a look that will be all Saab" vs "it will also form the basis of the next Impreza". This second comment from the original autoexpress article actually means that Saab technology will underpin the Subaru, not the reverse. - tex >> The best analysis I've seen of this news is over on SAAB Central forum >> board: >> <http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49648> > > "Best analysis"??? More like standard snobbist opining/whining. Or an opinionated rant? Take a look in the mirror, eh? >> "It's not going to have any connection to the C900 except for some >> intellectualy famished advertising man's utterly lame attempt to scrape >> a bit of credibility out of Saab's heritage to make up for a total lack >> of quality ideas. People wouldn't buy it if it looked like one (except >> a few nutters on here), they wouldn't tolerate a transmission that is >> so fragile that it requires a bit of skill to keep going, > I consider myself lucky to not be a snobbist/purist like this ding dong. It > would be utterly dumb for Saab to build the exact same car they built in > 1993. That certainly was not what he was saying. Given the recent propensity for the SAAB badge to be placed onto slightly re-worked existing GM models is perhaps why the author of that thread was incensed by the original article. I know that platform sharing is no new thing to SAAB and that buying in significant parts of the overall engineering is no new thing to SAAB. The freedom to develop and re-work that engineering is something SAAB have done very well through the majority of the history of the marque. >> it won't be totally (and unprofitably) over-engineered, > > Why should Saab not make money? Maybe re-read that one? SAAB should make money. That would be great. So would engineering autonomy. > This second comment from the original autoexpress article actually means > that Saab technology will underpin the Subaru, not the reverse. Right .. Okay. What do SAAB offer Subaru? How much SAAB went into the 9-2? My bet is that it will be a shared next generation Impreza that will be marketed as both SAAB (in less power form) and Subaru. Paul 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ >> This second comment from the original autoexpress article actually means >> that Saab technology will underpin the Subaru, not the reverse. >Right .. Okay. What do SAAB offer Subaru? How much SAAB went into the 9-2? >My bet is that it will be a shared next generation Impreza that will be >marketed as both SAAB (in less power form) and Subaru. Eww - I can see it now... "A Saab with a Boxer Engine"! 8-) Craig. SignatureCraig's Saab C900 Page --> http://lios.apana.org.au/~c900 Sydney, NSW Australia Craig's Saab C900 Workshop -- For all Saab C900 Enthusiasts world-wide! http://www.saab900classic.net http://www.saab900.org c900@lios.apana.org.au Come and explore our site, and check out our web-forums, mailing list, etc. > Or an opinionated rant? Take a look in the mirror, eh? You can be assured, that if I indeed do rant, that it will be about something I actually know something about and something that actually exists and is concrete. The alleged new 900 neither exists nor is concrete in vision. Call me an optimist, but I see that Saab has a great opportunity here....to dig into its past for inspiration of a whole new, but also retro, model. > That certainly was not what he was saying. Given the recent propensity for > the SAAB badge to be placed onto slightly re-worked existing GM models is > perhaps why the author of that thread was incensed by the original > article. If you've actually followed GM and Saab in recent years you would know that these rebadged cars are only temporary until Saab comes up with its own offerings in those market segments. > I know that platform sharing is no new thing to SAAB and that buying in > significant parts of the overall engineering is no new thing to SAAB. The > freedom to develop and re-work that engineering is something SAAB have > done > very well through the majority of the history of the marque. Totally agree. Kind of sounds like they are the unofficial "cover band" of the automotive manufacturing world? ;-) >>> it won't be totally (and unprofitably) over-engineered, >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > SAAB should make money. That would be great. So would engineering > autonomy. I think the debate lies in how you define "engineering autonomy". > Right .. Okay. What do SAAB offer Subaru? How much SAAB went into the 9-2? > My bet is that it will be a shared next generation Impreza that will be > marketed as both SAAB (in less power form) and Subaru. I'm surprised they just didn't go with a variant of the Epsilon II platform. From what I've read, it's already adaptable to both the next gen 9-3 and 9-5 cars (in AWD configuration). This would presumably mean slightly different platform sizes. So why not just have a slightly smaller version of the same platform for a retro 900? Doesn't seem very unreasonable given the car is still 3 years away from launch day. - tex >> That certainly was not what he was saying. Given the recent propensity for >> the SAAB badge to be placed onto slightly re-worked existing GM models is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > these rebadged cars are only temporary until Saab comes up with its own > offerings in those market segments. I'm not sure I follow you on this one ... The 9-X and the 9-3X were well developed and then the 9-2X was released, which bore nothing from the concept models. Perhaps the 9-3 Sport Combi, or even the 9-6, will use some of that engineering? What, specifically, were you referring to? >> Right .. Okay. What do SAAB offer Subaru? How much SAAB went into the 9-2? >> My bet is that it will be a shared next generation Impreza that will be [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > platform for a retro 900? Doesn't seem very unreasonable given the car is > still 3 years away from launch day. Why not indeed, although I'm not sure a smaller car will be anything like the C900. The actual successor to the C900 was the GM900 and then the 9-3. So, again, how can a smaller car be that successor? It is marketing drivel that bears no relation to the facts ... I'm still interested to see the car and hope it will sell worldwide, which has not been the case for the 9-2X. I do wonder whether the retro slogan "Nothing on earth comes close" will be applicable, though ;) Paul 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ >I'm still interested to see the car >and hope it will sell worldwide, which has not been the case for the 9-2X. I >do wonder whether the retro slogan "Nothing on earth comes close" will be >applicable, though ;) Half the reason that the 9-2X has done so badly is simply because it has been sold in so few markets and seems to be more of a 'production technology trial' than anything else, and the marketters didn't feel comfortable trying to sell it in all the base markets where GM has fingers. It's never been sold here in Australia, for example. We have Subaru selling Liberty, WRX's, etc. by the boatload, and Saab selling a meagre number of 9-3's and 9-5's, but the 'crossover vehicle' didn't seem to make it onto the radar of GM's senior marketters for our country. Perhaps that's because the market is so small compared to the US or Europe so there might not have been any perceived 'room' to put the 'Saabaru' into the picture... Regards, Craig. SignatureCraig's Saab C900 Page --> http://lios.apana.org.au/~c900 Sydney, NSW Australia Craig's Saab C900 Workshop -- For all Saab C900 Enthusiasts world-wide! http://www.saab900classic.net http://www.saab900.org c900@lios.apana.org.au Come and explore our site, and check out our web-forums, mailing list, etc. > on 12/05/2005 02:46: > > What, specifically, were you referring to? Saab had nothing ready to go in the small compact sport segment nor in the larger SUV segment. So GM dumped in the 9-2x and more recently the 9-7x as stopgap measures, to at least show the market where Saab was headed. It really only became clear that this new "retro" C900 would be the replacement for the current 9-2x. And the new crossover due in 2007 will replace the current 9-7x. The concept 9-3x that you referred to (tossed around since 01, I believe), I think was the one supposed to be built on the B9 Tribeca platform. It was supposed to debut at the NY auto show recently, but was a no-show. Perhaps, they've scrapped it in favor of another design? It's not from any recent press on it. >>> Right .. Okay. What do SAAB offer Subaru? How much SAAB went into the >>> 9-2? Diesel engines. Subaru currently offers none. 9-2x...very little Saab beyond the nose, badge and warranty. > So, again, how can a smaller car be that successor? It is marketing drivel > that bears no relation to the facts ... Again, I feel the "load lugger" comment was meant to indicate that the car would not be a sport-back nor a full estate. It will definitely be a wait and see sort of thing (ie, until some hard info is revealed about it). - tex >> What, specifically, were you referring to? > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > they've scrapped it in favor of another design? It's not from any recent > press on it. I see where you were coming from now. You are an optimist ... It would seem like the reborn 900 hatch would replace the 9-2X and be more of a shared interest between Subaru and SAAB, that just a re-badged offering. I'm not sure where you're from Tex, but in the UK, our perceptions of the 9-2X were very favourable. Certainly the Subaru crowd liked it and the SAAB people found a lot of interest in the offering of AWD on the sporty range from our beloved marque. What I do fear is that the reborn 900 hatchback will be a shared venture between Subaru and SAAB and be offered (again) in lesser spec for the SAAB market to protect the integrity of the Impreza in the Subaru market. >>>> Right .. Okay. What do SAAB offer Subaru? How much SAAB went into the >>>> 9-2? > > Diesel engines. :) >> So, again, how can a smaller car be that successor? It is marketing drivel >> that bears no relation to the facts ... > > Again, I feel the "load lugger" comment was meant to indicate that the car > would not be a sport-back nor a full estate. It will definitely be a wait > and see sort of thing (ie, until some hard info is revealed about it). Yup! Also, the article pitches the car into the Audi S3 section of the market. So, do we think that this car is the replacement for the hurried out 9-2X? Paul 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ > on 12/05/2005 11:22: > > I see where you were coming from now. You are an optimist ... I try to remain so. World has enough pessimists anyway. ;-) > I'm not sure where you're from Tex, Sometimes I'm not sure myself. ;-) > but in the UK, our perceptions of the > 9-2X were very favourable. Certainly the Subaru crowd liked it and the > SAAB > people found a lot of interest in the offering of AWD on the sporty range > from our beloved marque. I actually will agree with you here. It's a great AWD car. I recently had the chance to run one through its paces at an advanced driver training track. It performed really well (almost as well as the 9-3s and 9-5s). But despite its Saab-ifcations, it still did not feel like a true Saab. > What I do fear is that the reborn 900 hatchback will be a shared venture > between Subaru and SAAB and be offered (again) in lesser spec for the SAAB > market to protect the integrity of the Impreza in the Subaru market. This is a reasonable fear given the 9-2x debacle. If indeed there is a Saab/Subaru connection, let's hope that it does not extend beyond the base platform/chassis. In my view, this would be a reasonable/tolerable level of base component sharing. > Yup! Also, the article pitches the car into the Audi S3 section of the > market. So, do we think that this car is the replacement for the hurried > out > 9-2X? From what I gather, yes. - tex btw, on your web page (trollhattan trip) you misidentify the "battered Mercedes" parked in the street when it's actually a BMW (perhaps a 5 or 7 series). ;-) - tex otherwise...like the pics! - tex > btw, on your web page (trollhattan trip) you misidentify the "battered > Mercedes" parked in the street when it's actually a BMW (perhaps a 5 or 7 > series). > > ;-) Yup! That's been pointed out a couple of times and I've remedied the local copy ... Just to overwrite it when re-synching back from the online space after amending other parts of the site from work :) TBH, I've no idea whether it was a 5 or 7 series, either. I just pointed it out to my wife as a Mercedes and that got stuck in my mind. I was looking at the other cars :) I'll correct it (again) now. Ta. Trollhättan town is just as much a part of the museum, as the museum itself. It was a shame the factory was not open to visitors but they were just tooling up for the release of the SS. What was overwhelming to me about the museum was the love of the product and the passion for it that was exhibited by the board. SAAB cars truly are special. Perhaps that is where I get off being quite abrupt about more modern SAABs being more "interfered with" by other interested parties. Have you been? Later on in that holiday we went onto Oslo, where I found (when we got back) that there was another car museum in Oslo that had some odd/rare SAABs. IIRC, the prototype 9000 convertible was on show at that museum ... Or is that the one in Finland? Paul 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ > on 14/05/2005 22:21: > other interested parties. Have you been? Unfortunately, I've not been, although I would, at some point, love to go (for Saab fans, one of those necessary to-do's in life). The pics show no other people at the museum...were you the only one there at the time? Are there really that few Saab fans? I'm guessing that Trollhattan isn't a mecca for hordes of direction-enquiring, camera-toting tourists. - tex >> on 14/05/2005 22:21: >> other interested parties. Have you been? > > Unfortunately, I've not been, although I would, at some point, love to go > (for Saab fans, one of those necessary to-do's in life). Our trip was for my 30th. Pick a special day and just do it ... Obviously, it helps not to have the Atlantic Ocean between you and Sweden :) > The pics show no other people at the museum...were you the only one there at > the time? Are there really that few Saab fans? I'm guessing that > Trollhattan isn't a mecca for hordes of direction-enquiring, camera-toting > tourists. It's not especially a tourist town, since there are much nicer settlements around lake Vänern. It's more of a business town, promoting itself as a good place for conferences and the like. The locks and a stroll up the Göta canal make a pleasant afternoon and we were lucky enough to be there for market day, but otherwise, there's not much to do. The road into the town makes for light amusement - there's a road sign pointing left to Volvo, right for SAAB and straight on for the town centre :) Like good SAAB fans, we were there early and first in, whereupon I got carried away and ran around the place photographing everything :) We spent about 4 hours there, but a couple of hours would still give to chance to look at everything in good detail. That summer was especially hot, with temperatures hitting highs of around 30 degC, so we found the place idyllic, although from talking to the hotel staff, it's quite a rainy place really. Great trip and well worth visiting some of the other towns and cities across that part of the world - we also visited Stockholm (which we've been back to since, last summer) and Oslo. I'd love to have had a little more time to visit some of the smaller towns that we passed through on our travels. Anyway ... Back to SAABs ... There's the annual SAAB festival coming up: <http://www.saabfestival.se/english/index_en.htm> Paul 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ > Anyway ... Back to SAABs ... There's the annual SAAB festival coming up: > <http://www.saabfestival.se/english/index_en.htm> And the Internattional SOC in Essen, Germany, 5-7 August; http://www.astro.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/klw/Meeting_Hauptseite.htm -- MH '72 97 '77 96 '78 95 '79 96 '91 900i 16 http://go.to/saab96 Whilst we're at it....if you're in the US: http://www.saabconvention.org Aug 11-14...Stratton, VT. - tex > http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/56431/900_turbo_set_to_be_reborn.html > > and: http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000493042484/ > > - tex Wonder if they will have the balls to name it the Saab 9-00? Signature"Sorry Sir, the meatballs are Orf" The poster formerly known as Skodapilot. http://www.bouncing-czechs.com |
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