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Car Forum / Saab Cars / June 2005Turbos?
Did SAAB always make there own turbos or use a 3rd party? I would be especially interested in the 2004 9-3 Aero turbo details... > Did SAAB always make there own turbos or use a 3rd party? I would be > especially interested in the 2004 9-3 Aero turbo details... Dan, Saab used a company in the 1980s called GARRET, the in the 1990s, Mitubishi. We called the car a SAAB TURBO, but the Turbo wasn't a SAAB engineering feat. I'd be interested in finding out what the Turbos were in the 1970s when they started. SaabGuy > > Did SAAB always make there own turbos or use a 3rd party? I would be > > especially interested in the 2004 9-3 Aero turbo details... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > We called the car a SAAB TURBO, but the Turbo wasn't a SAAB engineering feat. I'd be interested in finding out what the Turbos were in the 1970s when they started. Probably Garrett back then too, they've been around for quite a while, Volvo and Ford used Garrett turbos too. >> Did SAAB always make there own turbos or use a 3rd party? I would be >> especially interested in the 2004 9-3 Aero turbo details... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I'd be interested in finding out what the Turbos were in the 1970s when they > started. They were Garrett, too. The technology started at Scania and SAAB/Scania applied the turbocharging method to cars. It was the research at Scania that led to the wastegate principle. APC, of course, was all SAAB and simply years ahead of its time. Paul 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ > > Did SAAB always make there own turbos or use a 3rd party? I would be > > especially interested in the 2004 9-3 Aero turbo details... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > SaabGuy I think the first turbo in a production car was 1973 BMW 2002 Turbo, but it was considered exotic and only sold in small numbers. http://www.bmwworld.com/models/newclass/2002_turbo.htm The 1977 Saab 99 Turbo was the first real mass production turbo car. I remember reading car mags, the journalists just couldn't believe how fast this ordinary looking family salon was. Perhaps that had something to do with the turbo torque; you didn't have to 'scream' the engine. The car just went as if an "invisible hand" moved it along. With 145bhp and a 0-60 time of 9 seconds, it actually beats my 150bhp 9000 CSE (0-60 ~ 9.5 sec) Salutations: <snipped for length - not for spite> > I think the first turbo in a production car was 1973 BMW 2002 Turbo, but > it [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > 9000 CSE > (0-60 ~ 9.5 sec) Actually - there was the 60's Oldsmobile Jetfire: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~csimpson/Articles/JetFire.html .. and the 60's corvair: http://www.corvaircorsa.com/turbo.html -- Radio Free Dexterdyne Top Tune o'be-do-da-day Bill Monroe - Blue Moon of Kentucky http://www.dexterdyne.org/888/009.RAM all tunes - no cookies no subscription no weather no ads no news no phone in - RealAudio 8+ Required - all the Time > Salutations: > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > http://www.corvaircorsa.com/turbo.html Damned you got me there! However, these early turbo cars weren't all that successful. I quote: "So complex was this system and so unprepared was the Oldsmobile dealer service network for this technology that Oldsmobile offered a program to its customers that for a fee of $50 they would remove the turbo system and replace it with a conventional carburetor." http://www.nhrasportcompact.com/2002/news/042501.html While others may have dabbled, Saab 99 really was the first to bring successful turbo charging into the mainstream for ordinary mass produced cars. Salutations: >> Actually - there was the 60's Oldsmobile Jetfire: >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > successful > turbo charging into the mainstream for ordinary mass produced cars. Oh, I never said it was a great system (covair was better though). Really the daily driver turbo car relies on a much better management system than they could build in the 60's. That was why the SAAB Turbo was the first to really take off. Although, you have to admit there were *a lot* of early turbo SAAB's converted to NA before they were finally written off. At the heart of the problem then and now for Chev, Olds, Buick and SAAB - factory parts, when something wore out, is and have always been exorbitant. What ticks me off is that the folks at GM didn't look at using SAAB turbo technology across their model lines. It would have dropped prices for turbo parts and given them a generally MUCH better 2.+ engine solution. I never got why they didn't because that technology was probably the greatest value in the buying out SAAB. VW is on the rigt track there with it's TDI efforts. I've been looking around for a Rajay that might be retro-fitted to my 403 Olds in the motorhome. All I want is a couple of extra foot-pds of torque for the hills and I'll bet it is exactly the ticket if I can find one. -- Radio Free Dexterdyne Top Tune o'be-do-da-day Bill Monroe - Blue Moon of Kentucky http://www.dexterdyne.org/888/009.RAM all tunes - no cookies no subscription no weather no ads no news no phone in - RealAudio 8+ Required - all the Time > I've been looking around for a Rajay that might be retro-fitted to my 403 > Olds in the motorhome. All I want is a couple of extra foot-pds of torque > for the hills and I'll bet it is exactly the ticket if I can find one. You'd probably be just as well off with a Garrett T4 or similar medium sized turbo, any number of exhaust or performance shops can fab the parts you'd need to install it, but you have to be careful boosting engines that were not designed for it, and you pretty much have to be fuel injected for it to work well. Salutations: >> I've been looking around for a Rajay that might be retro-fitted to my >> 403 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > to > work well. Well that's what I'm reading up on lately. I'm running a 1977 403 inch Olds block with the truck cam. It was sort of a cross platform solution for GM - being used in everything from generators to firebirds to motor homes. The idea was to use a universal engine across as many platforms as possible (sound familiar anyone?). The primary difference between engine application being the cam, carbs and timing module. It was used as a replacement for both the 455 and 350 in many applications. So - where I am not looking for 600+hp out of the engine, but rather a bump of 100 or so foot/pds of torque around 3/4 redline (2,800 rpm), I think the stock compression and intake is fine. The engine was vastly under-compressed to make smog numbers. The problem is finding the original plumbing kit several folks made for the 403 engine back 25 years ago. The Rajay had the advantage of using a completely standalone spring set waste gate (no vac) and only needed an oil line off the cooler nipples. There are several intercooler options out there, mostly from GMC diesel division. The Rajay used a insert above the carb to pressurize the system and, I think, could be bolted directly onto the stock exhaust manifolds. BAE also seemed to have a similar solution. In either case, you need two turbos' with a cross pipe to make it work evenly. Effectively, what I'm trying to do is add some punch - but nowhere near the limit of the turbo or the engine given that there is pretty much no occasion where I'm much above 3/4 redline being that it is a motor home. Garret and AR type solutions like our SAAB units are *much* more powerful, but therefore more complicated, than I actually need I think. However - I could well be dead wrong and so continue with the reading. The stock figures for the engine as it sits now are: 185hp@3600 RPM, 320ft/lbs torque @2200 RPM. I'd like to see 250hp@3,600 RPM and about 420ft/lbs of torque around 2,800 RPM. I'm pretty sure that's about the limit the transmission will live with - and that item in the power train is much more the deciding factor. -- Radio Free Dexterdyne Top Tune o'be-do-da-day Tractors - Dorreen http://www.dexterdyne.org/888/038.RAM all tunes - no cookies no subscription no weather no ads no news no phone in - RealAudio 8+ Required - all the Time >While others may have dabbled, Saab 99 really was the first to bring successful >turbo charging into the mainstream for ordinary mass produced cars. It's interesting that while 900's were first produced in 1979, 99's were still made until 1984 (a year after my 1983 900S!). Like 8V 900's, I presume that 99's didn't get imported to all markets after the 900's came out. Where exactly did 99's get sent to after 1979? Was there any development work done on the 99's post-1979 and were any engineering changes made which were not related to new technology innovations of the period? I'm keen on getting a 99 because of the similarities to the 900's, but I know that to get a 99T in good condition would be quite a coup! I've seen a few here (someone had one at a recent NSW Branch SCCA meetings I attended). Regards, Craig.  SignatureCraig's Saab C900 Page --> http://lios.apana.org.au/~c900 Sydney, NSW Australia Craig's Saab C900 Workshop -- For all Saab C900 Enthusiasts world-wide! http://www.saab900classic.net http://www.saab900.org c900@lios.apana.org.au Come and explore our site, and check out our web-forums, mailing list, etc. > It's interesting that while 900's were first produced in 1979, 99's were > still made until 1984 (a year after my 1983 900S!). Like 8V 900's, I presume > that 99's didn't get imported to all markets after the 900's came out. Where > exactly did 99's get sent to after 1979? We (UK) got 99s up to (I think) 1982. > Was there any development work done > on the 99's post-1979 and were any engineering changes made which were not > related to new technology innovations of the period? Nothing significant that I'm aware of. > I'm keen on getting a 99 because of the similarities to the 900's, but I > know that to get a 99T in good condition would be quite a coup! Indeed. They are a lot of fun, especially the 99T. Under the bonnet, they are very similar to a 900, so you'll feel right at home. The suspension + brakes are very similar to that on early 900s. SignatureGrunff >> It's interesting that while 900's were first produced in 1979, 99's were >> still made until 1984 (a year after my 1983 900S!). Like 8V 900's, I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > We (UK) got 99s up to (I think) 1982. Yes, the 99 was produced until 1982, then replaced by the Saab 90. Cheers! > >> It's interesting that while 900's were first produced in 1979, 99's were > >> still made until 1984 (a year after my 1983 900S!). Like 8V 900's, I [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Cheers! Whoa - the 99 was produced by Valmet (Finnish tractor manufacturer) in 1983 and 1984. Best 99 ever. I owned a 1983 model 99, from 1987 until the end of 2000. For 1985 and 1986 the back end was replaced by that of the 900 2d saloon and the resulting kludge was called a Saab 90. Still a very reliable car despite butt-ugly looks. /Robert > called a Saab 90 That was so the three car range could be 90 (base), 900 (old reliable with large fan base), 9000 (for those who must have the latest). All ending 0 as part of the model name, rather than having 99, 900, 9000, I guess they thought it was a tidier model name range. Signature"Sorry Sir, the meatballs are Orf" The poster formerly known as Skodapilot. http://www.bouncing-czechs.com >> I'm keen on getting a 99 because of the similarities to the 900's, but I >> know that to get a 99T in good condition would be quite a coup! > > Indeed. They are a lot of fun, especially the 99T. Under the bonnet, > they are very similar to a 900, so you'll feel right at home. The > suspension + brakes are very similar to that on early 900s. In all honesty, the differences between the 99T and an early 900T, are that there's a bit more room to work under the hood in the 900. That's it. As I recall, the extra length was put in the nose for crash test reasons? All the parts are in the same place, and I can't think of any that aren't interchangable (other than the hood). From the windshield back, I'm pretty sure they're the same car (3-door model, anyway). Dave Hinz > In all honesty, the differences between the 99T and an early 900T, are > that there's a bit more room to work under the hood in the 900. This is very true. I did my 99's clutch, and it was not as nice as on a 900. Radiator had to come out. > That's > it. As I recall, the extra length was put in the nose for crash test > reasons? All the parts are in the same place, and I can't think of any > that aren't interchangable (other than the hood). From the windshield > back, I'm pretty sure they're the same car (3-door model, anyway). They do handle differently though, and the 99 is lighter, with less forward overhang. SignatureGrunff >> In all honesty, the differences between the 99T and an early 900T, are >> that there's a bit more room to work under the hood in the 900. > > This is very true. I did my 99's clutch, and it was not as nice as on a > 900. Radiator had to come out. Yup, that's the only thing I can think of that differs much. But, to be fair, it is 6 bolts, two hoses, and 2 wire bundles, so it's not a big job. >> That's >> it. As I recall, the extra length was put in the nose for crash test >> reasons? All the parts are in the same place, and I can't think of any >> that aren't interchangable (other than the hood). From the windshield >> back, I'm pretty sure they're the same car (3-door model, anyway). > They do handle differently though, and the 99 is lighter, with less > forward overhang. Yup. Drives almost as well as a bullnose 96. > I think the first turbo in a production car was 1973 BMW 2002 Turbo, but it > was considered exotic and only sold in small numbers. Shhh! We (SAABers) keep that one quiet :) Heck, you'll have Grunff running about the place shouting "See! See! BMW are alright!" and such like ... Great car, BTW. There's a magazine in the UK, called "Retro Cars", which focuses on tuned retro (but not necessarily classic) cars. The 2002 has featured a number of times in the magazine. They do seem to like SAABs, too, now a few of us have hassled them. Yeah, I like the 2002, but I don't think I could be obsessive about it in the same was as a SAAB turbo. Paul 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ > Heck, you'll have Grunff running about the place shouting "See! See! BMW are > alright!" and such like ... Lol. I know I've been a bit quiet lately, but I've been reading all the threads over the past couple of weeks - I'm in bed with a broken leg + ankle. It hurts a lot, and I have lots of time to spare... The 2002 is a superb car, and on my list. Many similarities between it and the 99T. Has that lean, mean, hungry feel. SignatureGrunff > The 2002 is a superb car, and on my list. Many similarities between it > and the 99T. Has that lean, mean, hungry feel. Someone on my block drives a beautiful green 2002. I see it parked on the street every night. I don't know if it has the turbo or not. The body looks mint, but it smokes and sputters a bit when it first starts up. John Salutations: >> Heck, you'll have Grunff running about the place shouting "See! See! >> BMW are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > threads over the past couple of weeks - I'm in bed with a broken leg + > ankle. It hurts a lot, and I have lots of time to spare... Brother Grunff - what the heck happened? You didn't get into a curve a little too hot in the new Bimmer did you? -- Radio Free Dexterdyne Top Tune o'be-do-da-day Tractors - Dorreen http://www.dexterdyne.org/888/038.RAM all tunes - no cookies no subscription no weather no ads no news no phone in - RealAudio 8+ Required - all the Time > Brother Grunff - what the heck happened? You didn't get into a curve a > little too hot in the new Bimmer did you? Hi Dex. Of all the ways I could have damaged myself, this is by far the most embarrassing. I slipped on some gravel in the yard, broke my fibula and my calcaneus (left). Lots of titanium holding it all together for a while. Should be out of cast/hardware in 10 weeks or so. SignatureGrunff >> Brother Grunff - what the heck happened? You didn't get into a curve a >> little too hot in the new Bimmer did you? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and my calcaneus (left). Lots of titanium holding it all together for a > while. Should be out of cast/hardware in 10 weeks or so. Ouch. Hopefully it's just bone injury, and the tendons and ligaments are OK - lots of complicated machinery right in that area. Too bad it's during summer, as well. Hang in there, friend. Dave Hinz > Ouch. Hopefully it's just bone injury, and the tendons and ligaments > are OK - lots of complicated machinery right in that area. They had to open it up to operate (remove bone fragments + install hardware), and I'm told it's looking OK. > Too bad it's > during summer, as well. Hang in there, friend. Thanks Dave. SignatureGrunff > > Brother Grunff - what the heck happened? You didn't get into a curve a > > little too hot in the new Bimmer did you? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and my calcaneus (left). Lots of titanium holding it all together for a > while. Should be out of cast/hardware in 10 weeks or so. I suppose the DIY is on the back burner for a while then. Hows the house going before the injury? Signature"Sorry Sir, the meatballs are Orf" The poster formerly known as Skodapilot. http://www.bouncing-czechs.com > I suppose the DIY is on the back burner for a while then. > > Hows the house going before the injury? Fortunately, we finished everything last December. And I mean totally finished. Not even a light bulb to change. It's been nice living in a finished house. SignatureGrunff Salutations: >> Hi Dex. Of all the ways I could have damaged myself, this is by far the >> most embarrassing. I slipped on some gravel in the yard, broke my fibula >> and my calcaneus (left). Lots of titanium holding it all together for a >> while. Should be out of cast/hardware in 10 weeks or so. ahh - it's the bricklayer's lament then? To the Federation of Civil Engineering Contractors, Golders Green. 'Respected Sirs: 'In regards to your Trade dues per 1340 Mersey Way Cottage assignment, when I got to the roof of the building, I found that the recent hurricane had indeed knocked several bricks off the top as the owner had indicated. 'So, in keeping with your direction that day, I rigged a beam with a pulley to the top of the building, and separately hoisted up two barrels of bricks. The damage was not nearly as extensive as it had first appeared - so when I had completed repairs, there were considerable bricks left over. 'Being very busy in the wake of the hurricane, I attempted to save time and hoisted a single barrel back up again, secured the line at the bottom, returned to the roof and filled the barrel with remaining bricks. Then I went to the bottom and cast off the line. 'Unfortunately ... due in no small part to the national rationing policy in my opinion ... the single barrel of bricks was now considerably heavier than I was and before I knew what was happening, the barrel started down, violently jerking me off the ground. 'For reasons that I cannot fully explain at this time, I decided to hang on. 'Therefore, about halfway up I met the barrel coming down and received several severe blows to my head and shoulders. I then continued my flight to the top, again banging my head against the beam and finally jamming my fingers in the pulley. 'I was therefore unaware of the considerable events in motion below. 'It became almost immediately apparent that the barrel had hit the ground and burst its bottom. This, I suppose, then allowed all the bricks to spill out and it was at that point that a frank, hopefully cautionary, lesson in physical dynamics was experienced. 'Being that I was now heavier than the barrel I had met so abruptly on the way up - I started to return to earth at increasingly alarming speeds, but still with the rope knotted around my hand as indicated in your most recent newsletter. 'Some might say thankfully, halfway down, I met the remaining barrel shell moving rapidly in the opposing direction and while I received several more severe injuries certain unmentionable lower regions - the chance meeting did slow my travel to an apparently non-fatal rate. No doubt the reasoning behind the informative article in the above mentioned newsletter. And so, it was thus that I hit the ground, landing on the bricks that had split receiving several more painful cuts in the process. 'It was at this point I must have lost my presence of mind - because I finally let go the line. 'The now bloody barrel immediately returned to earth providing for the final heavy blow that has put me in hospital and now finds me replying to your kind letter for my trade dues as regards 1340 Mersey Way Cottage. 'Considering events, as well as my strict adherence to published best practice as illustrated in our federation newsletter - I would respectfully request an extension until at least I am release from the hospital, hopefully sometime in the Fall.' Yours, Pelham. Yours, Pelham. -- Radio Free Dexterdyne Top Tune o'be-do-da-day Mr Ray Charles - I'm Busted http://www.dexterdyne.org/888/184.RAM all tunes - no cookies no subscription no weather no ads no news no phone in - RealAudio 8+ Required - all the Time > ahh - it's the bricklayer's lament then? > > To the Federation of Civil Engineering Contractors, Golders Green. <snip> That put a smile on my face. I'm sure I've seen it before, but it must have been a long time ago. SignatureGrunff > > ahh - it's the bricklayer's lament then? > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I'm sure I've seen it before, but it must have been a long time ago. Original by Gerard Hoffnung, born 1925 died 1959. Heard many times on BBC in the forties and fifties. Brilliant humorist amongst other things. > Original by Gerard Hoffnung, born 1925 died 1959. Heard many > times on BBC in the forties and fifties. Brilliant humorist amongst > other things. Discovery channel's "Mythbusters" tried it out too. With some rigging it worked. -- MH '72 97 '77 96 '78 95 '79 96 '91 900i 16 http://go.to/saab96 >> Original by Gerard Hoffnung, born 1925 died 1959. Heard many >> times on BBC in the forties and fifties. Brilliant humorist amongst >> other things. > > Discovery channel's "Mythbusters" tried it out too. With some rigging it > worked. Well, sure, but Mythbusters will keep trying until they get _something_ to explode, one way or the other. Poor Buster...he gets so abused. Did you see the elevator one yet? He's actually in pieces now. > Poor Buster...he gets so abused. Well... they never made him drive a BMW. > Did you see the elevator one yet? yes, nice one. > He's actually in pieces now. Will that save him from the BMW? -- MH '72 97 '77 96 '78 95 '79 96 '91 900i 16 http://go.to/saab96 >>Poor Buster...he gets so abused. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Will that save him from the BMW? This seems a common theme for you MH. It makes one think that you are insecure and jealous of BMW drivers for some reason. Why else would you constantly harp on it? -Fred W > This seems a common theme for you MH. It makes one think that > you are insecure and jealous of BMW drivers for some reason. > Why else would you constantly harp on it? Just trolling... Do I have to add smileys to everything I write? -- MH '72 97 '77 96 '78 95 '79 96 '91 900i 16 http://go.to/saab96 >> This seems a common theme for you MH. It makes one think that >> you are insecure and jealous of BMW drivers for some reason. >> Why else would you constantly harp on it? > > Just trolling... > Do I have to add smileys to everything I write? I sure hope not. I read it as a gentle "ribbing" from here (shrug?) > Lol. I know I've been a bit quiet lately, but I've been reading all the > threads over the past couple of weeks - I'm in bed with a broken leg + > ankle. It hurts a lot, and I have lots of time to spare... Ouch! Well take it easy and rest-up. Lovely weather at the moment just to be sitting around outside with a wireless 'puter and a cold drink ... Paul 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ > Ouch! Well take it easy and rest-up. Lovely weather at the moment just to be > sitting around outside with a wireless 'puter and a cold drink ... Thanks Paul. Puts a bit of a downer on the summer though :-( SignatureGrunff > I think the first turbo in a production car was 1973 BMW 2002 Turbo, but it > was considered exotic and only sold in small numbers. I didn't think I'd ever say this, Johannes, but you're mistaken. The Corvair Corsa was sold in 1965 and 1966 with an optional turbo. Here's one link: http://www.corvaircorsa.com/turbo.html One of my neighbors _just_ bought a new-to-him Corvair Corsa, I don't know if it's got the turbo or not. I'll ask him next time I see him. 180HP in a car that size ... > Did SAAB always make there own turbos or use a 3rd party? I would be > especially interested in the 2004 9-3 Aero turbo details... Saab has always used 3rd party turbo's: Garrett on the "regular" turbo cars. And Mitsubishi on the highperformance (Aero/Viggen) cars. The Mitsu turbo's are a much better turbo. Luckily the 2004 9-3 Aero has a Mitsu: TD04HL-15T Cheers! |
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