bars leaks

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es - 23 Jun 2005 17:51 GMT

hey i just got a bottle of bars leaks for the antyfreez and it says to
put it in the radiator cap and since my saab does not have one can i
just put it in the overflow tank?

and i'm going to change out the aux fan switch too eny tips?

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Dave Hinz - 23 Jun 2005 18:06 GMT

> hey i just got a bottle of bars leaks for the antyfreez and it says to
> put it in the radiator cap and since my saab does not have one can i
> just put it in the overflow tank?

Well, sure, but keep in mind that it's job is to stop water from flowing
through small places...and your radiator and heater core, are small
places where you want water flowing.

> and i'm going to change out the aux fan switch too eny tips?

Righty-tighty, lefty-loosey?

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yaofeng - 23 Jun 2005 19:20 GMT

> hey i just got a bottle of bars leaks for the antyfreez and it says to
> put it in the radiator cap and since my saab does not have one can i
> just put it in the overflow tank?

Bars Leaks does wonders to small dripping leaks in a cooling system
such as the water pump. I wouldn't use it if your cooling system has
no leaks. Pour measured quantity into the expansion tank.

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Paul Halliday - 23 Jun 2005 20:24 GMT

> hey i just got a bottle of bars leaks for the antyfreez and it says to
> put it in the radiator cap and since my saab does not have one can i
> just put it in the overflow tank?

Yes, you can ... But ...

Do you have a leak? If so, do you know where the system is leaking from? If
you do you'll be better off remedying the problem at source rather than
masking the problem with an internal leak stopper product.

SAABs have a very complex cooling system, with lots of little branches and
junctions on small bore pipes and tubes. The turbo is also water cooled on
the models from about the early '90s. A product like the one you mention
_could_ end up creating blockages in the system.

I know you've flushed the system, but how effective was that? If there's
*any* rust left in the system, that will congeal with the leak product and
cause a blockage.

If your car is running hot, it can be one of three things:
1. Ineffective radiator.
2. Blockages in the cooling system.
3. Throttle stopped too far open.

In any case, pouring a 5 quid product into the expansion tank is not going
to help. Sorry ... No miracle cures. Bars leaks does an excellent job of
sealing up leaks for a short while until you can get your car in at a garage
to have the problem dealt with properly. That's really what it's for.

> and i'm going to change out the aux fan switch too eny tips?

Tips? No thanks, I smoke roll-ups ;)

Pah! Can't do that joke anymore, since I gave up smoking a couple of years
ago. Erm, just unscrew it, and pop a new one in. A little plumbers' tape
around the thread won't do any harm.

Paul

Var tog vägen vägen?
SAAB : Nothing on earth comes close

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Dave Hinz - 23 Jun 2005 20:27 GMT

> SAABs have a very complex cooling system, with lots of little branches and
> junctions on small bore pipes and tubes. The turbo is also water cooled on
> the models from about the early '90s.

1987, +/- 1 year.

> If your car is running hot, it can be one of three things:
> 1. Ineffective radiator.
> 2. Blockages in the cooling system.
> 3. Throttle stopped too far open.

Can you explain that last one, Paul? Also, I'd add:
5. Cooling fan not running correctly

Dave Hinz

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Paul Halliday - 23 Jun 2005 20:40 GMT

>> SAABs have a very complex cooling system, with lots of little branches and
>> junctions on small bore pipes and tubes. The turbo is also water cooled on
>> the models from about the early '90s.
>
> 1987, +/- 1 year.

Yeah, the Garrett TB0358 chargers were watercooled, but I was also thinking
more of the Mitsubishi chargers.

>> If your car is running hot, it can be one of three things:
>> 1. Ineffective radiator.
>> 2. Blockages in the cooling system.
>> 3. Throttle stopped too far open.

> Can you explain that last one, Paul?

My last C900 was in a bit of a sorry state when I first got her. It ran very
warm. The radiator, cooling system and fan all seemed to be working okay,
but the idle was a little high. I found that setting up the throttle
correctly (turn the grub screw down until it touches the butterfly and then
screw a further third of a turn) did the trick. The mixture needed looking
over too, of course.

I suppose lean mixtures can also lead to high running temperatures.

Of course Bosch controlled cars should be able to compensate a little for
throttle position and mixture issues.

> Also, I'd add:
> 5. Cooling fan not running correctly

Duh! Yup. Cars with air-conditioning or climate control, especially so!

Paul

Var tog vägen vägen?
SAAB : Nothing on earth comes close

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Dave Hinz - 23 Jun 2005 20:46 GMT

>>> 3. Throttle stopped too far open.
>
>> Can you explain that last one, Paul?

> My last C900 was in a bit of a sorry state when I first got her. It ran very
> warm. The radiator, cooling system and fan all seemed to be working okay,
> but the idle was a little high. I found that setting up the throttle
> correctly (turn the grub screw down until it touches the butterfly and then
> screw a further third of a turn) did the trick. The mixture needed looking
> over too, of course.

I'm confused. How does the idle stop screw (yes?) adjustment matter, on
a car that running down the road? It's not idling then; that screw
doesn't enter into it. The '86 I'm driving these days is running hot
and has a high idle, but I can't see any relation. I can back it down
though, but I think the heat problem is that the fan bearings are making
rattly noises and I need a different fan (or to wire the other one in).

>> Also, I'd add:
>> 5. Cooling fan not running correctly

> Duh! Yup. Cars with air-conditioning or climate control, especially so!

I'm dissapointed you didn't make the obvious observation.

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Paul Halliday - 23 Jun 2005 21:02 GMT

>>>> 3. Throttle stopped too far open.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> though, but I think the heat problem is that the fan bearings are making
> rattly noises and I need a different fan (or to wire the other one in).

I see what you're saying ... I spend a lot of my time in idling traffic.
That was my issue. When driving, yes, fine. Stuck in gridlock with a high
idle is no fun ... and hot!

No worries ... Strike that one. Let's promote cooling fan not running to
number 3. ... Or 4. ;)

>>> Also, I'd add:
>>> 5. Cooling fan not running correctly
>
>> Duh! Yup. Cars with air-conditioning or climate control, especially so!
>
> I'm dissapointed you didn't make the obvious observation.

The missing number 4. ?
Warm weather? Lack of coolant? Water pump not running? Blown fuse?

You shouldn't be disappointed. I'm a beginner, after all. I've learned a lot
from owning three C900s upon which I have attempted most jobs. I've learned
a lot from web resources and from questioning my mechanics. I suppose when
general semantics get in the way of communication, one tends to say "this is
how it is", rather than "perhaps it could be ...".

So, perhaps it could be ... :)

Still, dropping a vial of Bars Leaks into the system is unlikely to be
helpful in this circumstance. I fear we might have confused the matter now.

Paul

Var tog vägen vägen?
SAAB : Nothing on earth comes close

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Dave Hinz - 23 Jun 2005 21:05 GMT

>> I'm confused. How does the idle stop screw (yes?) adjustment matter, on
>> a car that running down the road? It's not idling then; that screw
>> doesn't enter into it.

> I see what you're saying ... I spend a lot of my time in idling traffic.
> That was my issue. When driving, yes, fine. Stuck in gridlock with a high
> idle is no fun ... and hot!

I'll drop the idle & see if that changes things. I suspect it won't,
but it should be fixed anyway. It was set high to compensate for the
HUGE vacuum leak, caused by the usual "newbie owner takes dash out to
poorly install radio, and pulls vacuum hose cluster and heater control
rod off of where they should be" mistake that the previous owner made.

> No worries ... Strike that one. Let's promote cooling fan not running to
> number 3. ... Or 4. ;)

There is no 4 ;)

>> I'm dissapointed you didn't make the obvious observation.
>
> The missing number 4. ?

That's the one. Saw it during proorfeeding, but decided not to rix it.

> You shouldn't be disappointed. I'm a beginner, after all. I've learned a lot
> from owning three C900s upon which I have attempted most jobs. I've learned
> a lot from web resources and from questioning my mechanics. I suppose when
> general semantics get in the way of communication, one tends to say "this is
> how it is", rather than "perhaps it could be ...".

Naah, nothing like that. Your 900 knowledge is top-notch, I was just
playing with words.

> Still, dropping a vial of Bars Leaks into the system is unlikely to be
> helpful in this circumstance. I fear we might have confused the matter now.

Agreed, on both counts. Don't do it, 'es'.

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Paul Halliday - 23 Jun 2005 21:19 GMT

>>> I'm confused. How does the idle stop screw (yes?) adjustment matter, on
>>> a car that running down the road? It's not idling then; that screw
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> poorly install radio, and pulls vacuum hose cluster and heater control
> rod off of where they should be" mistake that the previous owner made.

Hmmm! That's sound familiar <--- from the newbie end of things :(

I have found C900s to be very picky about having the idle setup up right.
The mixture is more forgiving, especially on turbos. Also, the ignition must
be right. NGK plugs and Bougicord leads. I've always stuck to NGK plugs, but
other leads (including Magnecor I must say) don't feel right after a while.

Yours in an 8V injection, right? I think you'll be surprised how much a
correctly set idle does make. Still, fixing the other issue you've found
will also help.

>proorfeeding

Caught that one :)

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Dave Hinz - 23 Jun 2005 21:27 GMT

>> HUGE vacuum leak, caused by the usual "newbie owner takes dash out to
>> poorly install radio, and pulls vacuum hose cluster and heater control
>> rod off of where they should be" mistake that the previous owner made.

> Hmmm! That's sound familiar <--- from the newbie end of things :(

I don't know anyone who has gone into that dash for the first time and
not done one or both of those things.

> I have found C900s to be very picky about having the idle setup up right.
> The mixture is more forgiving, especially on turbos. Also, the ignition must
> be right. NGK plugs and Bougicord leads. I've always stuck to NGK plugs, but
> other leads (including Magnecor I must say) don't feel right after a while.

No, I'm one of the "there is no reason not to use NGK" people, but I
will tweak that idle.

> Yours in an 8V injection, right? I think you'll be surprised how much a
> correctly set idle does make. Still, fixing the other issue you've found
> will also help.

Better do it soon, it's supposed to be 92F (something like 35C)
tomorrow.

>>proorfeeding

> Caught that one :)

How about "rix"?

Dave

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Paul Halliday - 23 Jun 2005 21:37 GMT

>>> HUGE vacuum leak, caused by the usual "newbie owner takes dash out to
>>> poorly install radio, and pulls vacuum hose cluster and heater control
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I don't know anyone who has gone into that dash for the first time and
> not done one or both of those things.

... However, a seasoned SAABer will know to remove the LHS speaker grille to
get the temperature control arm back on ... Newbies prod into the dark,
swearing, for several tens of minutes :(

>> Still, fixing the other issue you've found
>> will also help.
>
> Better do it soon, it's supposed to be 92F (something like 35C)
> tomorrow.

My radiator has been "iffy" since winter, but I've shirked doing the
replacement, finding all manner of other things to do in the evenings and
weekends. I wish I had now. We're getting circa 30 degC weather over here at
the moment, so I have to pick my routes carefully to ensure that I keep
moving! I think my friendly mechanics at Aeromotive will get that dubious
pleasure shortly :)

>>> proorfeeding
>
>> Caught that one :)
>
> How about "rix"?

... The second time ...

Paul

Var tog vägen vägen?
SAAB : Nothing on earth comes close

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Craig's Saab C900 Site - 23 Jun 2005 23:33 GMT

>> I have found C900s to be very picky about having the idle setup up right.
>> The mixture is more forgiving, especially on turbos. Also, the ignition must
>> be right. NGK plugs and Bougicord leads. I've always stuck to NGK plugs, but
>> other leads (including Magnecor I must say) don't feel right after a while.

>No, I'm one of the "there is no reason not to use NGK" people, but I
>will tweak that idle.

The difficult part with this is you're really just compensating for problems
in other areas by fiddling with the idle setting. If, like my 1985 900i, you
adjust the idle, it'll be wrong when the engine warms up (ie. too fast), or
if you do it when the engine is warm, it'll be wrong (ie. too slow) when the
engine is cold. What that does tell me though is that there is a problem
elsewhere. Vacuum issues have been eliminated (after a long period of slowly
checking each possible vacuum-related issue).

Can't comment on ignition leads. A lot of people here in Oz like Magnecor
leads. The fact there is a subsidiary which makes them locally might help
though - they're made to suit our conditions.

>> Yours in an 8V injection, right? I think you'll be surprised how much a
>> correctly set idle does make. Still, fixing the other issue you've found
>> will also help.

>Better do it soon, it's supposed to be 92F (something like 35C)
>tomorrow.

Nice and warm. Today here in Sydney it's just over 10C outside right now at
8.30 am. Yesterday it was 3.5 C in the morning and didn't get above 9.5 C
all day here. I need to replace the starter in my C900 today - going to be
fun doing it in the wind and the rain. 8-) Zap, Zap, zap... lol

Slight lack of a structure known as a garage so have to brave the elements
to work on my cars...

Craig.

Signature

Craig's Saab C900 Page --> http://lios.apana.org.au/~c900 Sydney, NSW Australia
Craig's Saab C900 Workshop -- For all Saab C900 Enthusiasts world-wide!
http://www.saab900classic.net http://www.saab900.org c900@lios.apana.org.au
Come and explore our site, and check out our web-forums, mailing list, etc.

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Craig's Saab C900 Site - 23 Jun 2005 23:27 GMT

>>> I'm confused. How does the idle stop screw (yes?) adjustment matter, on
>>> a car that running down the road? It's not idling then; that screw
>>> doesn't enter into it.

>> I see what you're saying ... I spend a lot of my time in idling traffic.
>> That was my issue. When driving, yes, fine. Stuck in gridlock with a high
>> idle is no fun ... and hot!

>I'll drop the idle & see if that changes things. I suspect it won't,
>but it should be fixed anyway. It was set high to compensate for the
>HUGE vacuum leak, caused by the usual "newbie owner takes dash out to
>poorly install radio, and pulls vacuum hose cluster and heater control
>rod off of where they should be" mistake that the previous owner made.

8-) He he sounds familiar... The first time I took apart the dash of my C900
was quite an 'experience', but now it's routine and apart from the bugbear
of needing to remove the left speaker each time I need to guide the heater
control rod back into place on the control valve shaft (refer to
"http://lios.apana.org.au/~c900/heatervalve.html" for more info about C900
heater control valve replacement), it's not too bad. lol

>> No worries ... Strike that one. Let's promote cooling fan not running to
>> number 3. ... Or 4. ;)
>
>There is no 4 ;)

8-) One way to check the cooling system appears to be working is by starting
the engine and feeling the hoses every few minutes as the coolant starts to
heat up. You should feel the hoses to the heater control valve warm up
first, then the big hose to to expansion tank. Then the big hose at the top
of the radiator should begin to warm up as the coolant does it's job and
heated coolant starts to appear at the top of the radiator.

What worries me about my C900's is that they both have the top radiator hose
split half-way to install the additional thermo-switch housing that I
believe is something to do with the air-conditioning controls (?).

Those hoses get extremely stressed because they're both short and set up as
two 90-degree bends, and one of them is quite swollen just from age and use.
I'm trying to find a place which sells 1.25" ID silicone 90-degree 3 or
4-ply hose bends but so far have had no luck - only 1.5" ones and they're
too big.

Craig.

Signature

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MH - 23 Jun 2005 23:29 GMT

> If your car is running hot, it can be one of three things:
> 1. Ineffective radiator.
> 2. Blockages in the cooling system.
> 3. Throttle stopped too far open.

any of 5
4. Not enough coolant in the system.
5. bad head gasket.

(I'm sure some Life of Brian fans can come up with more...)

Signature

MH
'72 97 '77 96 '78 95 '79 96
'91 900i

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Pooh Bear - 24 Jun 2005 01:59 GMT

> > If your car is running hot, it can be one of three things:
> > 1. Ineffective radiator.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> (I'm sure some Life of Brian fans can come up with more...)

Classicly, ignition timing error wouldn't help IIRC. Nor lean mixture.
Kinda moot with an ECU unless it ( or the sensors ) are buggered.

Graham

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Pooh Bear - 23 Jun 2005 22:36 GMT

> hey i just got a bottle of bars leaks for the antyfreez and it says to
> put it in the radiator cap and since my saab does not have one can i
> just put it in the overflow tank?
>
> and i'm going to change out the aux fan switch too eny tips?

Unless you actually *have* a leak - pls *don't* !

But yes - that's kinda the place to add it if you really want to make a
mess of your car.

Graham

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Mac Townsend - 25 Jun 2005 01:02 GMT

Bars Leaks is little fluffy pellets that will (a) block of parts of your
radiator and (b) probably block off the reservoir bottle's feed to the
radiator.

The stuff was invented a loong time ago when cooling systems were crude.
It will probably F*** up your SAAB, causi9ng you to have a sob instead.

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