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Car Forum / Saab Cars / July 2005Saab 99 gearbox gasket or not?
Hi all, I have to lift the engine out of the 1980 99 soon. (Please dont ask why... ;-) I was wondering what the easiest option was: 1: leave the gearbox attached to the engine and get it out as one piece OR: 2: loosen all the gearbox bolts and get only the engine out, as this saves me the hassle of removing driveshafts etc. The question is: Is 2: an option? And if yes: Is there a gasket between the engine and the gearbox? If yes then I need a new one before I start....., if no: what do I use there instead to keep the oil in? :-) The book I have is not clear about this. Maybe Haynes says something more specific? Thanks already, Richard. > 1: leave the gearbox attached to the engine and get it out as one piece > OR: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The question is: > Is 2: an option? Yes, it's an option, but not one worth considering. It's considerably more hassle than 1, bearing in mind that you'll need to remove the clutch in order to achieve it. Go for option 2, and take this opportunity to replace all 4 driveshaft boots. One less job for the future. > And if yes: Is there a gasket between the engine and the > gearbox? I don't think there was a gasket, no. You'd simply use gasket compound (high temp silicone) instead.  SignatureGrunff > > 1: leave the gearbox attached to the engine and get it out as one piece > > OR: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > -- > Grunff Grunff, thank you. But I already have the clutch off, and driveshafts and boots are really good. Does that change your view? Richard. > But I already have the clutch off, and driveshafts and boots are really > good. > Does that change your view? It swings it a little, but I'd still pull the lot - much less fiddly. I think unbolting the tranny and leaving it behind is quite doable, but for my money not worth the additional knuckle skin. SignatureGrunff > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I was wondering what the easiest option was: > 1: leave the gearbox attached to the engine and get it out as one piece Yes. Without question. > 2: loosen all the gearbox bolts and get only the engine out, as this saves > me the hassle of removing driveshafts etc. The driveshafts "hassle" totals two bolts for the lower ball joints per side, maybe the shock absorber, and that's _it_. You'll also have to undo the speedo cable and shift linkage. It's a whole lot easier to get at the important bits when the engine and tranny are out as a unit. > The question is: > Is 2: an option? And if yes: Is there a gasket between the engine and the > gearbox? Not a good one, and I've seen gaskets but I always use a good grade of RTV on that joint. Which is very tricky to get done properly if you're fighting that joint with one in the car and one not in the car. The oil strainer has to go in the sump, while you control descent of the engine without smearing things, while you're avoiding the firewall at the alternator bracket, while you're standing at an unnatural angle using muscles in inefficient ways. Ask me how I know this... > If yes then I need a new one before I start....., if no: what do I use there > instead to keep the oil in? :-) > The book I have is not clear about this. Maybe Haynes says something more > specific? RTV; try to keep it out of the bolt holes if you can. Dave Hinz . . > > 2: loosen all the gearbox bolts and get only the engine out, as this saves > > me the hassle of removing driveshafts etc. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > undo the speedo cable and shift linkage. It's a whole lot easier to get > at the important bits when the engine and tranny are out as a unit. Dave, are the driveshafts not bolted to the gearbox? I thought 4 bolts each? And I also have to disconnect the steering rods, right? Take both wheels off and put something underneath the car... Drain the oil from the gearbox too... If you take both shafts out, what happens to the differential thing in there? Or is that only an issue with the 900 gearboxes? Gearbox is only 12 hassles (bolts) total. And the other option counts up to 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 2 + 2 + 1 + 1 = ehm .. 22 hassles (bolts) Voila: the reason for my question. Besides: the gearboxbolts are all nice and greasy, whereas the the ball joint bolts look a lot harder. > > The question is: > > Is 2: an option? And if yes: Is there a gasket between the engine and the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > alternator bracket, while you're standing at an unnatural angle using > muscles in inefficient ways. Hm... it doesnt seem that hard to me, but _I_ never did it before, so.... > Ask me how I know this... Ok then, if you insist: "Hey Dave, how do you know this?" :-) I will have a close look, and reconsider. Thanks. Richard. > . > . [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > are the driveshafts not bolted to the gearbox? I thought 4 bolts each? Nope, it's a 3-lobed driver going into the drive cups. Undo the clamps on the rubber boots right at the tranny, undo the lower a-arm bolts at the balljoint, slide the balljoint outwards. I did the shocks at the same time but I'm not sure it's needed. > And I also have to disconnect the steering rods, right? Nope. Plenty of room to get the shaft ends out of the drive cups without that. > Take both wheels off and put something underneath the car... Well, yes, the road wheels being off make getting to the ball joint bolts much easier, so jack stands under the car will work the trick. I usually use the shaft making the cross-bar on the "A" arm. > Drain the oil from the gearbox too... No reason to; you'll keep it horizontal. > If you take both shafts out, what happens to the differential thing in > there? Or is that only an issue with the 900 gearboxes? Same gearbox for all practical purposes. You're not taking the inner drivers out, you're taking the driveshaft out of them. Slides right in/out. > Gearbox is only 12 hassles (bolts) total. Yeah, but you have to get the exhaust manifold out of the way, remove the starter (if a B-engine) to get at the 3 or 4 under there, and a whole lot of leaning over to get at things that are very easy to access if you have the whole thing out. Not to mention the two bolts upwards through the back of the tranny case into the back of the block. Those are a bitch. Don't forget the long bolt behind the flywheel, going upwards, that is longer than the space you have to remove it, and so on. > And the other option counts up to 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 2 + 2 + 1 + 1 = ehm .. 22 > hassles (bolts) > Voila: the reason for my question. Pull it as a unit, you won't regret it. I've done it both ways, and there's no question. > Besides: the gearboxbolts are all nice and greasy, whereas the the ball > joint bolts look a lot harder. You might be surprised. >> > The question is: >> > Is 2: an option? And if yes: Is there a gasket between the engine and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Hm... it doesnt seem that hard to me, but _I_ never did it before, so.... I guess it depends on if you're going to take the advice of several people who have been there and done that, or if you want to repeat the mistakes we've made and are advising you against. (shrug?) I've heard the saying that goes something like "Experience is learning from your own mistakes; wisdom is learning from the mistakes of others". >> Ask me how I know this... > > Ok then, if you insist: > "Hey Dave, how do you know this?" Don't ask... > I will have a close look, and reconsider. Maybe some of these images will help: http://www.davehinz.com/oldsite/saab/99turbo/ I don't have them annotated, but the pictures might help give you an idea what you'll find in there. I also notice that I never uploaded the installation pics, but as they say, it's more or less the reverse of removal. Dave Hinz Dave, thank you for the info, I was already hoping you could shed some light on this. The main reason I asked here is that I had never heard anyone that left the gearbox in place, even though it looked (rel.) easy. So... wise as I am (eh ... ahem.... ;) I though I better ask the better experienced here. :-) And yes, I was worried there just might be a bolt or two that I would not be able to remove this way. Good News about the steering rod and the inner drivers. I just didnt realise that. Makes a difference. *sigh* I _only_ have to replace the aux shaft that I broke when I rebuilt the oil pump and put the wrong rubber seal in there so it wouldnt turn anymore... Grr. Thanks again! Richard. > > . > > . [quoted text clipped - 102 lines] > > Dave Hinz > Dave, > thank you for the info, I was already hoping you could shed some light on > this. > > The main reason I asked here is that I had never heard anyone that left the > gearbox in place, even though it looked (rel.) easy. That's what I thought the first time I did one, yes. > So... wise as I am (eh ... ahem.... ;) I though I better ask the better > experienced here. >:-) > And yes, I was worried there just might be a bolt or two that I would not be > able to remove this way. The two up against the firewall are an absolute bitch in the car, and nothing to it out of the car. > Good News about the steering rod and the inner drivers. I just didnt realise > that. > Makes a difference. Were you able to make out those drivers on the pictures? There's one which shows the right-side one (left as viewed from the nose of the car) - you can see the starter leaning up against the wheelwell arch, just laying out of the way - that photo. Zoom in (click once or twice on thumbnail) and you can see the driver cup & rubber boot there. When you lift the whole thing, that improves the angle and makes the gaps larger, so the inner drivers just drop out with a bit of wiggling of the whole thing. Having a backhoe as a hoist isn't absolutely necessary, but it sure helps ;) > *sigh* > I _only_ have to replace the aux shaft that I broke when I rebuilt the oil > pump and put the wrong rubber seal in there so it wouldnt turn anymore... > Grr. By aux shaft you mean the layshaft that drives the water pump and the oil pump, yes? Yup, no way other than pulling the engine to get that sucker out. Mind that you don't do the same thing whe you install the water pump - any instructions which mention a slide hammer are WRONG and will break teeth. I can write something up on that if you want. > Thanks again! Da nada. Dave Hinz > sucker out. Mind that you don't do the same thing whe you install the > water pump - any instructions which mention a slide hammer are WRONG and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Da nada. `> Dave Hinz I think I remember reading that story... I dont have to remove the waterpump to get the shaft out, at least I did not have to with the donor engine. But getting the shaft IN might present some yet unknown surprises. I'll find out soon... R. >> sucker out. Mind that you don't do the same thing whe you install the >> water pump - any instructions which mention a slide hammer are WRONG and >> will break teeth. I can write something up on that if you want. > I think I remember reading that story... If it was me complaining about the previous owner of my 99T leaving me three distinct failures inside the engine I had blueprinted, and he had then torn apart to put the wrong pistons in it, then yes. That's the engine that is in those photos, with #3 piston/con rod poking through the block. The re-assembly was...not done well... Particularly annoying after all the effort I had gone into making it dead-freaking-nuts-right when I built it initially. > I dont have to remove the waterpump to get the shaft out, at least I did not > have to with the donor engine. But getting the shaft IN might present some > yet unknown surprises. > I'll find out soon... > R. (thinks...) Well, make sure you get the right number of teeth on those two gears; there are two versions of that shaft, and the water pump and dizzy's gears have to be the right ones for the shaft you use. I've never pulled that shaft without taking the water pump out, but if you look here: http://davehinz.com/oldsite/saab/99turbo/reanimation/cleanup/img_1470.html That's looking down the bore of the water pump showing the gear on that layshat. IF you take it slow, it may come out. There is nothing to "grab" the shaft coming out when you pull it, so if you can't just slide it out and you feel a hard stop, stop. I'd pull the dizzy first just to get that out of the way, and if you have a mechanical fuel pump (I assume not) get that out of there as well. If you don't have to pull the water pump, you don't want to. I don't know the diameter of the dizzy gear on that shaft compared to the water pump gear, that and the lobes for the fuel pump and such would be the other things which might hit the water pump's gear. |
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