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Car Forum / Saab Cars / August 2005[Saab_c9000] Saab C9000 SuperSwede's in Australia?
Hi everyone, Following on from Clifford Bernard's SuperSwede being offered for sale via Ebay recently, it has started me wondering just how many of these unique Saab 9000's made it to Australia, and apart from Cliff's (which is a beautiful car and I wish I had $10k to buy it!) what happened to the others. So far nobody seems to know. Myself and a few other people have posed this question in the Saab C9000 web-forums at: http://www.saab900classic.net/phpBB2/index.php?c=3 and hopefully we'll eventually track down one or more of the other SuperSwede's in Australia and gather some info about their history. I've set up a skeletal web page on the SuperSwede because it's such a unique car (much like the Saab C900 Enduro was back in 1981) at: http://www.saab900classic.net/superswede.html which will be updated with more info and pictures in the next few days. In the meantime if you're interested in Cliff's SuperSwede, the Ebay listing is at: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7177636405&ssPageName =STRK:MEWA:IT Regards, Craig.  SignatureCraig's Saab C9000 Page - http://lios.apana.org.au/~c9000 - Sydney Australia Craig's Saab C900 Workshop -- For all Saab C900/C9000 Enthusiasts world-wide! http://www.saab900classic.net http://www.saab900.org c9000@lios.apana.org.au Come and explore our site, and check out our web-forums, mailing list, etc. Craig, Excellent! A C9000 page! Are you enjoying all of the Saab videos on the Saab video site that I posted in here yesterday? SG > Hi everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Craig. > Hi everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > beautiful car and I wish I had $10k to buy it!) what happened to the > others. Now if I didn't know what an enormous venture maintaining a "special editions" website would be, I might be inclined to start a site dedicated to SAAB 9000 special models and start with this car! :) Great looker and this one, particularly, is in excellent condition. The older-style 9000 with body kit looks sooo evil, but in a good way :) Paul 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ > Hi everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > http://www.saab900classic.net http://www.saab900.org c9000@lios.apana.org.au > Come and explore our site, and check out our web-forums, mailing list, etc. Nice C9000 site, but please correct some inaccuracies. You write: "Saab's C9000 (ie. 'Classic' 9000) family of cars was produced between 1985 and 1992 as a joint-partnership between Saab and Fiat, Lancia, and Alfa-Romeo. In 1990 Saab became part of General Motors (everyone has a different view about why and how this occured!), and GM initiated a complete re-design of both the 900-series and the 9000-series. The 'next generation' 9000's were released in 1993, and the redesigned 900's were released a year later in 1994.(refer to the note below)" The 9000 wasn't re-designed in the same way as the 900. The 9000CS used the same basic design and platform, nothing to do with GM. The changes to the 9000 were mainly styling changes front and rear. Hence it's false to distinguish the C9000 as a Classic 9000 in the same way as the C900. Johannes, Regardless, it is terrific to finally have a C9000 page. It is long overdue SG > > Hi everyone, > > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > to the 9000 were mainly styling changes front and rear. Hence it's false > to distinguish the C9000 as a Classic 9000 in the same way as the C900. > Johannes, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > SG But the 9000CS is not a GM model as is implied on the site. In fact, Haynes manual is titled: Saab 9000 1985-1998, thus indicating the mechanical continuity of the range. It is far from a "complete re-design" by GM as suggested on the site. I doubt very much that GM was involved at all in the 9000CS, apart from buying a share stake in the company. > But the 9000CS is not a GM model as is implied on the site. In fact, Haynes > manual is titled: Saab 9000 1985-1998, thus indicating the mechanical > continuity of the range. It is far from a "complete re-design" by GM as > suggested on the site. I doubt very much that GM was involved at all in the > 9000CS, apart from buying a share stake in the company. Indeed - the changes are really quite minor - it's a facelift, similar to that which was carried out on the C900 in 1988. SignatureGrunff > > But the 9000CS is not a GM model as is implied on the site. In fact, Haynes > > manual is titled: Saab 9000 1985-1998, thus indicating the mechanical [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Indeed - the changes are really quite minor - it's a facelift, similar > to that which was carried out on the C900 in 1988. So, this means that in 2006/2007 the 9-5 will be the C9-5 SG > > > But the 9000CS is not a GM model as is implied on the site. In fact, Haynes > > > manual is titled: Saab 9000 1985-1998, thus indicating the mechanical [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > SG Possibly. I think GM has a very different rear wheel drive car in mind. > > > > But the 9000CS is not a GM model as is implied on the site. In fact, Haynes > > > > manual is titled: Saab 9000 1985-1998, thus indicating the mechanical [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Possibly. I think GM has a very different rear wheel drive car in mind. Jonannes, Right, the rear from the spy shots looks BMWish SG > > > > > But the 9000CS is not a GM model as is implied on the site. In fact, Haynes > > > > > manual is titled: Saab 9000 1985-1998, thus indicating the mechanical [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > SG So here is the Historical Timeline for the 900 and 900. The years may vary depending on country I believe the years indicated below are internationally accepted 1979-1994 (C900) - Classic 900 1994-1998 (NG) - New Generation 900 1999-2001 9-3 1984-1992 (C9000) - Classic 9000 1993-1998 (NG9K) - New Generation 9000 1997-2005 (C9-5) - Classic 9-5 2006-? (NG9-5) - New Generation 9-5 SG > > > > > > But the 9000CS is not a GM model as is implied on the site. In fact, Haynes > > > > > > manual is titled: Saab 9000 1985-1998, thus indicating the mechanical [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > SG These are obviously not Saab's own descriptions, so I can't see this having some kind of international status. They may be convenient labels for the purpose of discussion, but NG9K is not a label I would want to see in general use when there is already the CS/CSE labels. But that's just IMO. The C900 and NG900 are very different cars, whereas C9000 and CS are not. The NG900 are build on a platform shared with GM Opel cars at the time, whereas the CS carries on with the same platform as C9000. This platform was superficially shared with Type 4 cars, but Saab used their own Panhard rod rear suspension. The CS was a facelifted C9000, unlike the NG900 which was a completely different car from C900. As said, Haynes manual is titled 'Saab 9000 1985-1998', indicating the mechanical continuity of the range. There is no merit in distinguishing the CS as a different creation, the difference is cosmetic. Some people like the C9000, others think the CS looks cleaner. It's a matter of taste. > > > > > > > But the 9000CS is not a GM model as is implied on the site. In fact, Haynes > > > > > > > manual is titled: Saab 9000 1985-1998, thus indicating the mechanical [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > > > > Indeed - the changes are really quite minor - it's a facelift, similar > > > > > > to that which was carried out on the C900 in 1988. > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Grunff [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > as a different creation, the difference is cosmetic. Some people like > the C9000, others think the CS looks cleaner. It's a matter of taste. Johannes, I completely agree with you, and I'm sure others do but.. that means that if you are saying "same platform" then there is no NG that can be applied. It's almost like saying that the Pontiac GrandAm is A Saab 9-3 SS, saying that there really is no different "Since" they are on the same platform, and I disagree, there are enough changes. I mean, if we line up the last year C9000 (1992) with a 1993 CS, they LOOK different, and there were some changes with the engine, etc. The entire rear was redone, even though it is technically on the same platform. SG > > > > > > > > But the 9000CS is not a GM model as is implied on the site. In fact, Haynes > > > > > > > > manual is titled: Saab 9000 1985-1998, thus indicating the mechanical [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > > SG But then you can use the CS/CSE labels for the facelifted models. There has been engine variations (the same block) over the entire model life 1985-1998, not just for the 1993 model. Secondly, in case of the 900, the 'Classic' tag was introduced because the car's unique styling and mechanical principles. That made it a classic, whereas the NG900 is much more a mainstream (ordinary) car. Note that 'Classic' is used as a special word with special meaning, not just a label. Since all 9000 are similar, they are much more likely to share the same status as potential 'Classic' cars; this should not be reserved for 1985-1992 models. Whether a car is can be termed 'Classic' depends on how it stands out from the crowd. It's also indicated by the secondhand prices of well kept models. The 9000 is a very well designed and build car, but secondhand bargains, so the jury is still out. > It's almost like saying that the Pontiac GrandAm is A Saab 9-3 SS No it isn't, nor is it like saying a Saab 9000 (either CC or CS/CD) ia an Alfa 164, or a Lancia Thema, or a Fit Tempra. A Saab 9000 whether in the CC early model, or the Later split CD and CS based models is no different. It is an Evolution rather than a rebirth. The C900 is a totally different animal to the NG/GM900 and the C9-3 (yes this applies), because the GM900 and the C9-3 are based on the Cavalier/Vectra platforms and share a body shell shape, where as the C900, only has a similar engine to the others, but a near unique engine/transmission layout that it only shares with the 99. Remember different body shells and design tweaks is a Saab standard. Saab 99 3 and 5 door hatch and 2 and 4 door sedan/saloon. Saab C900 in 3 and 5 door hatch, 2 and 4 door saloon/sedan and 2 door convertable NG/GM 900 sam Saab 9000 CD 4 door Saloon, and CC/CS 5 door hatch with facelift. SignatureCarl Robson Car PC Build starts again. http://smallr.com/rz Homepage: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com >> So here is the Historical Timeline for the 900 and 900. >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> 1997-2005 (C9-5) - Classic 9-5 >> 2006-? (NG9-5) - New Generation 9-5 >These are obviously not Saab's own descriptions, so I can't see this >having some kind of international status. They may be convenient labels >for the purpose of discussion, but NG9K is not a label I would want to >see in general use when there is already the CS/CSE labels. But that's >just IMO. I think that the timeline splits are pretty much universally accepted in Saab enthusiast circles, but yes they're not Saab's own definitions and I bet that GM is even less keen to see distinctions made between model changes introduced since they took over the company. However, it's a lot easier to distinguish the models using the most common terminology, particularly when chatting amongst other enthusiasts. >The C900 and NG900 are very different cars, whereas C9000 and CS are >not. The NG900 are build on a platform shared with GM Opel cars at the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >as a different creation, the difference is cosmetic. Some people like >the C9000, others think the CS looks cleaner. It's a matter of taste. But the fact remains, IMHO anyway, that the pre-1993 and the 1993+ 9000's are different in ways that do distinguish them as being seperate build series. They're not a totally different car like the C900's and NG/GM900's, but they are different in body styling, and other areas as well. If it was simply just a body style change, then there would be plenty of contention for saying the two builds of the 9000's were not different enough to be given seperate 'enthusiast titles'. Regards, Craig. SignatureCraig's Saab C9000 Page - http://lios.apana.org.au/~c9000 - Sydney Australia Craig's Saab C900 Workshop -- For all Saab C900/C9000 Enthusiasts world-wide! http://www.saab900classic.net http://www.saab900.org c9000@lios.apana.org.au Come and explore our site, and check out our web-forums, mailing list, etc. > >> So here is the Historical Timeline for the 900 and 900. > >> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > Craig. Here, here! By the way, do you know of Mr. Wade from trollhattensaab.net, your fellow Saab Enthusiast also from Australia? SG out our web-forums, mailing list, etc. >By the way, do you know of Mr. Wade from trollhattensaab.net, your fellow >Saab Enthusiast also from Australia? Can't say this I do know that person, but I could well have met him if he was one of the people at the last SCCA NSW branch event last month... Craig. SignatureCraig's Saab C900 Page --> http://lios.apana.org.au/~c900 Sydney, NSW Australia Craig's Saab C900 Workshop -- For all Saab C900 Enthusiasts world-wide! http://www.saab900classic.net http://www.saab900.org c900@lios.apana.org.au Come and explore our site, and check out our web-forums, mailing list, etc. > >> So here is the Historical Timeline for the 900 and 900. > >> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > Craig. Well, then we'll never agree. I just think it's idiotic to say that 9000CC is a classic car and 9000CS is not. Why not use their Saab names instead of the Classic/NG nonsense. < snip > > Well, then we'll never agree. I just think it's idiotic to say that 9000CC > is a classic car and 9000CS is not. Why not use their Saab names instead > of the Classic/NG nonsense. I'm 100% with you here. The '92-93 model on 9000 was simply a 'facelift' in my view. Nothing significant in the mechanical dept changed for sure. The bodyshape isn't changed much either other than to be a bit sleeker. In comparison the C900 / NG900 is a clear difference, not least in the chassis and indeed the total body has no relationship whatever to the previous model. Graham > < snip > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Graham Yes, even the enthusiast web site http://www.saabmuseum.com/9000/my.html confirms that view. Notice that they have two entries for the 900: '900' and 'GM900', but only one entry for the 9000. For the 9000, you find a complete list of MY changes. The 1992 MY was introduced as follows: Model Year 1992 The most significant change for 1992 was the introduction of the 9000 CS - a five door with a lower bonnet and four headlamps - separate lamps for full and dipped beam. The new rear section had improved safety reinforcements. Catalytic converters became standard on all Saabs for all markets provided that fuel grades and local rules allowed them. Saab made another industry first with the introduction of CFC-free air conditioning systems. ABS (Antilock Braking System) was standard on all models for Sweden, Europe (not UK) and the United States. On sale from the Spring of 1992 was the 9000 Griffin - which came equipped with every available option as standard. That's it! Conclusion: The earlier 9000 are no more 'Classic' than the later models. > > < snip > > > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > That's it! Conclusion: The earlier 9000 are no more 'Classic' than the later > models. Incidentally, the Parker's price guide to used cars available here in the UK also doesn't distinguish between any 9000 model - but it certainly does between the C900 and the GM inspired 900 with the Opel Ascona / Vauxhall Cavalier chassis. Graham. > 1979-1994 (C900) - Classic 900 Ok. > 1994-1998 (NG) - New Generation 900 Ok. > 1999-2001 9-3 Ok. > 1984-1992 (C9000) - Classic 9000 > 1993-1998 (NG9K) - New Generation 9000 I really don't see how - this classification implies that the change is as significant as the C900-NG900 change - it is far from that. > 1997-2005 (C9-5) - Classic 9-5 > 2006-? (NG9-5) - New Generation 9-5 This seems quite likely, yes. SignatureGrunff > > 1979-1994 (C900) - Classic 900 > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > This seems quite likely, yes. Grunff, I wouldn't say that you can compare the changes between the C900-NG900 vs. the changes with the 9000. They are just "different" changes, and I don't think it's fair to use the Saab 900 to NG900 as the "transition" to compare everything to, it's just the first one that was called Classic vs. New Gen. Other vehicles can have changes, and don't need to be as identical to what the C900 went through. I mean really, if there were 101 change orders for the C900 into the NG900, does the C9000 need the same to justify it's new design being named NG9K? I wouldn't think so.. Maybe that's just my .02 cents SG >Regardless, it is terrific to finally have a C9000 page. I've got a mailing list going too - head to the "http://lios.apana.org.au/~c9000" page which is partner to my C900 page at "http://lios.apana.org.au/~c900". I don't own any 9000's yet so my focus for car projects will stay on the C900's for the forseeable future. >It is long overdue I'm always open to corrections on the info and assumptions I put online so the SuperSwede page and the C9000 mailing list + webring page will hopefully grow over time and I'll change the info so it's more correct when I get the chance. Regards, Craig. SignatureCraig's Saab C900 Page --> http://lios.apana.org.au/~c900 Sydney, NSW Australia Craig's Saab C900 Workshop -- For all Saab C900 Enthusiasts world-wide! http://www.saab900classic.net http://www.saab900.org c900@lios.apana.org.au Come and explore our site, and check out our web-forums, mailing list, etc. Craig, Have you seen the Saab videos? There are lots of videos with the C900, C9000 as well as the NG900 and NG9000! Take a look! SG > >Regardless, it is terrific to finally have a C9000 page. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Craig. >Have you seen the Saab videos? >There are lots of videos with the C900, C9000 as well as the NG900 and NG9000! >Take a look! I will be tonight once the network traffic goes down a bit. Having a 128 kbps ISDN connection doesn't make streaming video workable with all the additional latencies. Craig. SignatureCraig's Saab C900 Page --> http://lios.apana.org.au/~c900 Sydney, NSW Australia Craig's Saab C900 Workshop -- For all Saab C900 Enthusiasts world-wide! http://www.saab900classic.net http://www.saab900.org c900@lios.apana.org.au Come and explore our site, and check out our web-forums, mailing list, etc. >Nice C9000 site, but please correct some inaccuracies. You write: >"Saab's C9000 (ie. 'Classic' 9000) family of cars was produced between > 1985 and 1992 as a joint-partnership between Saab and Fiat, Lancia, and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > generation' 9000's were released in 1993, and the redesigned 900's were > released a year later in 1994.(refer to the note below)" >The 9000 wasn't re-designed in the same way as the 900. The 9000CS used >the same basic design and platform, nothing to do with GM. The changes >to the 9000 were mainly styling changes front and rear. Hence it's false >to distinguish the C9000 as a Classic 9000 in the same way as the C900. Ok well if that's actually the case then yes I need to make some changes. 8-) No hassle with that. I'd just like to get the situation clarified a bit more first. I personally can't see how GM would not have been at least partly responsible for the design changes in the 9000's after they took over Saab, but I haven't been a Saab owner since the early 1990's so I'm not exactly in a position to comment from first-hand experience. I'll check some other sites and make sure what the facts are then figure out what to change on the site(s) of mine that mention C9000's (in the context that I've described the pre-1993 9000's). Craig. SignatureCraig's Saab C900 Page --> http://lios.apana.org.au/~c900 Sydney, NSW Australia Craig's Saab C900 Workshop -- For all Saab C900 Enthusiasts world-wide! http://www.saab900classic.net http://www.saab900.org c900@lios.apana.org.au Come and explore our site, and check out our web-forums, mailing list, etc. |
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