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Car Forum / Saab Cars / September 2005SAAB Quality Since GM?
To open a can of worms. I've always been a big fan of Saabs, possibly due to my perception that they were substantially engineered and innovative. I especially like the 9000 series. What I want to know, is whether that reputation for rock-solid build quality has been maintained since GM took over? For instance, the 9000 had a chain-driven cam-shafts, which I always considered rather a better solution than belts, as failure usually means a lot of work. What do you guys think? > To open a can of worms. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > What do you guys think? Steven, Good question! I think we need to address this. This is what Saab needs right now, "better" build-quality. Customer perception truly believes that quality has nosedived since 1993/1994. SG > To open a can of worms. > > I've always been a big fan of Saabs, possibly due to my perception that they > were substantially engineered and innovative. > > I especially like the 9000 series. Uhuh. Very nice car. > What I want to know, is whether that reputation for rock-solid build quality > has been maintained since GM took over? No. See the comments regarding such simple things as squeaks and rattles. I have 2 squeak and rattle free 9000s that are both over 10 yrs old. Not bad eh ? > For instance, the 9000 had a chain-driven cam-shafts, which I always > considered rather a better solution than belts, as failure usually means a > lot of work. To put it mildly ! > What do you guys think? I reckon 'real' Saabs were better engineered and built. GM appears not to understand what Saab is about I'll venture. Graham As a saab tech.. everytime we see something GM involved, we cry.. extremly bad Mike > To open a can of worms. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > What do you guys think? > As a saab tech.. > everytime we see something GM involved, we cry.. One word - BEANCOUNTERS !!!!!! Teleman > To open a can of worms. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > considered rather a better solution than belts, as failure usually means a > lot of work. Not a particular good example. The 9-5 also has chain-driven cam-shafts. > What do you guys think? An Auto Express consumer survey earlier this year bore that out. It covered 50,236 people and 100 different cars. The reliability and build quality was disappointing, perhaps because other manufacturer have made huge progress. As a 9000 CSE owner, it feels rather strange to say that about a Saab! The good points (always mention the good points) were that 9-5 ranked 2'nd in comfort, 16 in performance, 17 in practicality, 17 in ease of driving, 18 in ride. The 9-3 ranked 10 in comfort, 27 in braking, 28 in performance. The rest I better not mention :-) "> > Not a particular good example. The 9-5 also has chain-driven cam-shafts. This seems to suggest that at least one core value is still intact - which is nice to know.. So assuming there was a lead time before the bean-counters did their damage - what would be the latest 9000 a true Saab man would contemplate? Best regards, Steve > "> > > Not a particular good example. The 9-5 also has chain-driven cam-shafts. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > So assuming there was a lead time before the bean-counters did their > damage - what would be the latest 9000 a true Saab man would contemplate? You might want to avoid the V6 9000s ( rubber cam belt ). Otherwise any 9000 is just fine. They didn't get GMised ( other than the V6 engine which came from Vauxhall ) Graham > You might want to avoid the V6 9000s ( rubber cam belt ). Otherwise any 9000 > is just fine. They didn't get GMised ( other than the V6 engine which came > from Vauxhall ) Anecdotally at least, the GM V6 unit seems a bit suspect, as two persons of my knowing have had major problems. Its the sort of thing which can't help but start a prejudice. Steve > > You might want to avoid the V6 9000s ( rubber cam belt ). Otherwise any > 9000 [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Steve Is there a V6 in existence that doesn't have a bad reputation? There seems to be a few good inline 6's, but many problematic V6's out there from every manufacture I can think of that's offered one. Not to mention they almost invariably are less powerful with poorer fuel economy than a turbo 4, while having the increased complexity of a V block without the huge torque of a V8. The worst of both worlds. > > > You might want to avoid the V6 9000s ( rubber cam belt ). Otherwise any > > 9000 [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > having the increased complexity of a V block without the huge torque of a > V8. The worst of both worlds. The biggest Vee you can get in a transverse drive vehicle typically though. Personally, I think Saab turbo'd 4s are great ! Graham > Is there a V6 in existence that doesn't have a bad reputation? There seems > to be a few good inline 6's, but many problematic V6's out there from every > manufacture I can think of that's offered one. Not to mention they almost > invariably are less powerful with poorer fuel economy than a turbo 4, while > having the increased complexity of a V block without the huge torque of a > V8. The worst of both worlds. I suppose it is possible that the very advantage of a V6, its compactness, might actually be its Achilles heel, in that heat and forces have less material to disperse into, while also being less rigid. There might be harmonic value with a V8 also. What about the Buick 3800? Bulletproof, great fuel efficiency (30mpg in a full-sized car with automatic trans), great torque and power. Great engine. Or hell, I have a Saab 900 SE V6, 1994 model. Whatever people may say, it is a car that drove 190 k miles through the Northeast and still remains rust free (some bubbling near rear wheel well) and overall seems to be in excellent condition, even the leather and steering wheel. The only problem is I can't get it to start. But the engine turns over fine. Oddly the engine has about twice as much oil in the crankcase as it should (the dipstick is way up...) although this is fresh clean oil, not like if a headgasket blew. If I ever had the time to diagnose the thing, I bet I could drain the oil and it would fire up... I don't know where all the complaints of unreliability of any Saab post-C900 or 9k come from, but really these cars are solidly made and durable. Do the power steering racks go every 100k miles? Do the gearboxes grenade themselves at 120k? Do the dashboards show more crack than a plumber after 10 years? Do the headgaskets blow every 150 k miles? Do the frame rails near the front suspension mounts hold so much mud and crap that they rust out and render the car a piece of scrap metal after 15 years? Do the wiper linkages break and leave you with no wipers just that day when you need the wipers on HI just to barely see anything while driving 20 miles per hour on an Interstate? Oh and heater valves and crumbling wiring and... Don't get me wrong at all - I love the C900. My personal car is a 1990 Turbo. I also have a 1989 900 turbo, a mint 1990 900 S, a near-mint 1992 900 S (the 3 of which I'd like to sell) and also a 1987 SPG I've been stealing parts from. They are great road cars that are a joy to own, and even - work on. The 900 SE isn't technically mine either. And the C900 is a very well put together car. How many other 20 year old cars do you see going about their business? A few Mercedes but that's it... And they are very resistant to rust, comparitively speaking. But I can't go out and say that anything else produced by Saab is a junk car. And for those who complain of V6 timing belts and turbo direct ignition cassettes, let me say that: The timing belt is scheduled for 35k miles. If you change the tensioner to the new style, the interval becomes the standard 100 000km figure as any other timing belt car (like a 9-5). The DI cassette will usually go 120 k miles and costs less than a transmission... > The DI cassette will usually go 120 k miles and costs less than a > transmission... My big complaint with the DI cassette is not the frequency of failure or even the cost, but the manner in which it fails. I can think of very few parts in any car that both fail with such frequency *and* result in completely disabling the vehicle with no warning at all. I agree. The DIC shouldn't even be a replacement item. GM's various distributorless ignition setups (since 1984) have proven to be pretty much trouble free and will last "forever" much like any other solid-state electronics. Why is Saab's version so very different? However Saab has promised NHTSA that the new revisions of the unit are "good" and much more infrequent replacements. But still... geez I am getting confused with too many gmail accounts... > I agree. The DIC shouldn't even be a replacement item. GM's various > distributorless ignition setups (since 1984) have proven to be pretty > much trouble free and will last "forever" much like any other > solid-state electronics. Why is Saab's version so very different? Because the're too much clever electronics is in that DI cassette ? As an electronics designer, I'd like to know what the typical failure mode(s) is (are). I'll bet there's something(s) straighforward that's fixable by design. Graham > > I agree. The DIC shouldn't even be a replacement item. GM's various > > distributorless ignition setups (since 1984) have proven to be pretty [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Graham The failure is related to the heat and lack of cooling possibilities when mounted on top of the engine. I took mine apart, the insulation in one of the coils had burned through, I guess it short circuited. It also help if you diagnose any overheating problem immediately, i.e. don't drive round with the temperature gauge at 3/4 mark. It must always be at a healthy 1/2 mark. >>>I agree. The DIC shouldn't even be a replacement item. GM's various >>>distributorless ignition setups (since 1984) have proven to be pretty [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > don't drive round with the temperature gauge at 3/4 mark. It must always > be at a healthy 1/2 mark. With the way the cooling systems were designed in the late 80's early 90's, I would guess that you are probably right on the money about the overheating being related to DIC failues. I mean, it doesn't make any sense to me that you would use an 89 degree C thermostat, and use a thermosensor switch in the radiator that first turns the fan on at 87 and doesn't put the fan at high speed until 92!! How did the designers suppose that we were going to cool the engine down (and regulate it) to 89 degrees with > 92 degree coolant at the outlet of the radiator? And this most certainly was not a GM design issue...  Signature-Fred W Toys for sale, Hey get your toys here: <http://users.adelphia.net/~fredwills/> > >>>I agree. The DIC shouldn't even be a replacement item. GM's various > >>>distributorless ignition setups (since 1984) have proven to be pretty [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > And this most certainly was not a GM design issue... The opening temp of the 'thermostat' is merely that. It prevents a cool engine from getting cooling it doesn't need. The coolant will actually be a lot hotter than the thermostat temp once the engine's doing some serious work. You're taking the meaning of 'thermostat' too literally. Graham > > > I agree. The DIC shouldn't even be a replacement item. GM's various > > > distributorless ignition setups (since 1984) have proven to be pretty [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > don't drive round with the temperature gauge at 3/4 mark. It must always > be at a healthy 1/2 mark. You reckon it's just heat ? Obviously that came to mind. Electronics can take some pretty serious heat as long as it's actually purpose designed to do so. Silicon semiconductors have a top limit on operating temp of 200 C. Integrated circuits rather less. Varies with complexity but up to 125C. Graham > > > > I agree. The DIC shouldn't even be a replacement item. GM's various > > > > distributorless ignition setups (since 1984) have proven to be pretty [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Graham It's the copper windings in the coils, not the Silicon. I don't think there are any semiconductors in the DI itself, all the electronics is done before the DI and it's supplied with 400 Volts at the plug end. This reduces the size of coils necessary so that they will fit into the confined space. But extra heat combined with the vibrations will rub on the insulation material in the long run and may short circuit a coil. Once short circuited, the increased current will burn the coils. To prevent this, keep the engine cool. If the engine temperature rises above normal while driving on a hot day in city, then switch off the ACC and bear the heat. >>>>>I agree. The DIC shouldn't even be a replacement item. GM's various >>>>>distributorless ignition setups (since 1984) have proven to be pretty [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > If the engine temperature rises above normal while driving on a hot day in > city, then switch off the ACC and bear the heat. Actually, I found the reverse with the AC. When you turn on the AC, the axuillary electric cooling fans come on. This helps cool the engine. Try this and see if it is true in your Saab. The best for the engine would be to rig a separate switch so you can turn on just the electric cooling fans without running the AC compressor. The reason for that isn't necessarily to cool the engine but to cool the aircon condenser. If the condenser becomes too hot, then it doesn't cool the refrigerant, and there is no transfer of heat. Most cars will do something like this. Many cars have a "pusher" fan behind the grille to suit this purpose, like my '91 Mazda MX-6 partscar. I'm thinking of taking that (relatively small) fan and fitting it to the intercooler on my 1990 900t... On the C900, the compressor won't engage if there is not enough refrigerant pressure. Sounds great for an owner of a 900 with escaped A/C, but - no, in such a situation the fan still isn't engaged. Oh well! > "> > >>Not a particular good example. The 9-5 also has chain-driven cam-shafts. > > This seems to suggest that at least one core value is still intact - which > is nice to know.. Timing chain is a core value? Why so lazy people don't have to do maintenance and their engine will not self destruct? I suppose Ferrari has no core values either because they use those reprehensible timing belts in their inferior engine designs? > So assuming there was a lead time before the bean-counters did their > damage - what would be the latest 9000 a true Saab man would contemplate? Any 9000, right up to the very last one off the mine, is worth considering IMNSHO. In fact a nice ;98 would be worth stashing in the back of the garage... > Best regards, > > Steve back at ya, Signature-Fred W Toys for sale, Hey get your toys here: <http://users.adelphia.net/~fredwills/> >> "> >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > has no core values either because they use those reprehensible timing > belts in their inferior engine designs? Perhaps you enjoy spending $1,000 every 30,000 miles just to replace a timing belt and much more if it breaks while the engine is running - I don't. I have a V6 GM 900, but I bought it as a 'sacrificial' car for amy daughter to learn to drive in, and I suspect it will acquire many dents and scratches before long once she starts. As for using Ferrari as an example - why don't you tell us what maintenance intervals are for the Ferrari? I heard a rumor, and I will qualify it as a rumor, that the engine needs an overhaul every 3,000 miles. What we need are some facts - do you have the factory recommended maintenance intervals for a particular model Ferrari? I suspect the often quoted line applied to a Ferrari, 'If you have to ask how much it costs to maintain the car, you should not be buying the car!' >> So assuming there was a lead time before the bean-counters did their >> damage - what would be the latest 9000 a true Saab man would contemplate? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > back at ya, > >>> Not a particular good example. The 9-5 also has chain-driven cam-shafts. > >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > timing belt and much more if it breaks while the engine is running - I > don't. That really is the point. Having to replace a timing belt at some considerable expense at regular intervals is not a great feature. The only explanation I've ever heard in favour of timing belts is low audible noise ( Oh and maybe reduced cost for manufacturer - but that's not something of interest to the purchaser ) . In view of the excellent sound insulation in a Saab - that's not really a convincing argument. Give me a timing chain any day. Graham > > >>> Not a particular good example. The 9-5 also has chain-driven cam-shafts. > > >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Give me a timing chain any day. What are the new 9-3SS? belt or chain? >>>>>>Not a particular good example. The 9-5 also has chain-driven cam-shafts. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > What are the new 9-3SS? belt or chain? All 4 cyl engines have timing chains. There is no 6 cylinder option in the 9-3SS (at least not in the US). Therefore, all (US) SAAB 9-3SS have chains. Signature-Fred W Toys for sale, Hey get your toys here: <http://users.adelphia.net/~fredwills/> > >>>>>>Not a particular good example. The 9-5 also has chain-driven cam-shafts. > >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > the 9-3SS (at least not in the US). Therefore, all (US) SAAB 9-3SS have > chains. 4 cyl engines in 900, old 9-3 and 9000 have timing chains, but.. The reason I ask is because the engines 4 cyl engines in the new 9-3SS are derived from GM engines and modified by Saab in some way, turbochargers etc. In the UK they also sell an entry model 1.8i and 122bhp (2.0L non turbo). This engine is a straight GM engine, that one must have timing belts? Then there are the 1.9 diesel engines which originates from FIAT/Alfa. You don't find anything mentioned about chain/belt in Saab advertising, so only a mechanic would know. Johannes a ecrit: > 4 cyl engines in 900, old 9-3 and 9000 have timing chains, but.. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > You don't find anything mentioned about chain/belt in Saab advertising, so > only a mechanic would know. The 2.0 litre 9-3 SS motor has timing chains. So do the GM Ecotec 2.2 and 2.0 motors used in other cars. The Ecotec / Global 4 motor was developed from the outset, mainly by Opel and Saab engineers exclusively. The Saab variant has a head/block/rotating assembly developed by Saab entirely. However, the block/head/rotating mass and 5-speed transmission are used nowadays also in a few cars, like the Saturn ION RedLine and Chevrolet Cobalt SS Supercharged (with a supercharger in place of the turbo) making 205hp. If you open the hood of one of these cars, and look at the transmission it says "SAAB" right on it... > That really is the point. Having to replace a timing belt at some considerable > expense at regular intervals is not a great feature. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Give me a timing chain any day. I'm somewhat split on the topic, Volvo has always used timing belts on their OHC engines, but up until the 90's they all had it right on the front so replacing it is very easy, not very expensive, and is just something you do ever 40-75K depending on whether it's an 8v non interference or 16v interference engine. I like the longevity of the chains Saab uses especially with them being back up against the firewall but then again chains can and do stretch and break and given it's not a regular maintenance item it's easy to not see it coming and be left replacing the engine. A friend of a friend recently lost his 9K to a timing chain failure. >>> "> >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Perhaps you enjoy spending $1,000 every 30,000 miles just to replace a > timing belt It does not cost that much on any SAAB for just the timing belt replacement. You exaggerate by a factor of 2, and the last I heard, the first 3 belts are covered under the warranty so all you have to do is drag your car into the stealership on time. > and much more if it breaks while the engine is running - I > don't. Yes, more if you don't change the belts, but if you do they are pretty darn unlikely to fail between those changes unless you have some other untended problems, like oil leaking on the belt. Now consider this: The same type of poor maintenance practices by owners that cause belts to go unchanged and break are also the reason that timing chains will go tits up at around 100k miles (sometimes even less) with the same damage to the top end. Even if they don't let it go to the point of breaking, a timing chain replacement (which seems to be required on even well maintained SAABs after an average of 110-120k miles) is a far more expensive proposition that the timing belt replacement and is *not* covered under any warranty that I am aware of. > I have a V6 GM 900, but I bought it as a 'sacrificial' car for > amy daughter to learn to drive in, and I suspect it will acquire many [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > qualify it as a rumor, that the engine needs an overhaul every 3,000 > miles. You're right, it is just a rumor, and a silly one at that. Perhaps they are talking about oil changes, but even those are at 10k miles on modern ones. The major service interval is 30k miles. That's when the belt gets changed. You can verify that on Ferrari's web site if you wish. Signature-Fred W Toys for sale, Hey get your toys here: <http://users.adelphia.net/~fredwills/> >>>> "> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > first 3 belts are covered under the warranty so all you have to do is > drag your car into the stealership on time. I bought the car used. It was sold after the head was repaired when the timing belt broke. So, I got the first timing belt and a new head "free". I considered this when I bought the car. I do not think the car will last much longer than another 30,00 miles anyway - with a beginning drive behind the wheel :-( >> and much more if it breaks while the engine is running - I don't. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > miles) is a far more expensive proposition that the timing belt > replacement and is *not* covered under any warranty that I am aware of. As far as I know, my first Saab was running fine with the original timing chain at 225,000 miles. I sold it to a teenage driver who had three accidents in the first month - so you know how it eventually died. >> I have a V6 GM 900, but I bought it as a 'sacrificial' car for amy >> daughter to learn to drive in, and I suspect it will acquire many [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > ones. The major service interval is 30k miles. That's when the belt > gets changed. You can verify that on Ferrari's web site if you wish. > I bought the car used. It was sold after the head was repaired when the > timing belt broke. So, I got the first timing belt and a new head > "free". I considered this when I bought the car. I do not think the car > will last much longer than another 30,00 miles anyway - with a beginning > drive behind the wheel :-( Might be good to give the beginning driver lots of supervised practice, I managed to put one small scuff in the bumper of my first vehicle but I know lots of people who didn't. I also knew a few people who got a nice first car and promptly totalled it though. > > I bought the car used. It was sold after the head was repaired when the > > timing belt broke. So, I got the first timing belt and a new head [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > lots of people who didn't. I also knew a few people who got a nice first car > and promptly totalled it though. It might help if the prospective driver had to pay for the vehicle ! I had no fairy godmother and my first car was paid for by me. I also had to service and maintain it ( no way I could afford to use a mechanic - never mind dealer prices ). That included an engine rebuild after not so long too. I'm frankly disturbed that Ma is apparently happily prepared to see the vehicle trashed by her daughter on account of being a newbie to driving. Does no-one give worthwhile driving lessons any more ? Graham >>>I bought the car used. It was sold after the head was repaired when the >>>timing belt broke. So, I got the first timing belt and a new head [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Graham Not "happily" prepared to see the vehicle trashed, but I am realistic. The issue may not be her driving, but others. Driving skills, especially defensive driving skills are not learned quickly. The newbie has enough to handle with just controlling her own vehicle. Many things an experienced driver takes for granted are not taught in Driver's Ed. I remember when I learned to drive, traffic was much less and the drivers were much less aggressive. Gas was also under $0.30 a gallon :-) One example of "defensive driving skills" we take for granted is predicting what the other drivers will do. I can tell which car/driver is going to weave through rush hour beltway traffic without signaling or looking. How? I can't really say, but I am always right. I suspect it might something to do observing subtle hints like hand position (holding cell phone) and front wheel angle/car position in lane. Try teaching that to a "newbie". They have to do the following and more: 1. Watch your speed 2. Watch behind you for car tailgating (always) and watch the cars beside you 3. look in front for brakes light or car slowing down (must learn to judge distance) 4. Watch for road conditions and changes in road conditions and adjust speed accordingly, but don't slam on the brake until you look in the rear view mirror 5. Tune radio/CD player and sing 6. Tell your parents to stop nagging - "I know it all" and "My eyes and reactions are better than yours" 7. Turn on lights if it is getting dark. 8. Turn on wipers if it starts to rain - and turn on lights if you turn on wipers - don't forget to slow down a bit 9.Check the dash for any warning lights - "check engine", engine temp rising etc 10. Listen for different noises that might indicate problems (flat tire, tapping in engine, failing transmission etc. (I owned a Ford) 11. Notice strange car behavior - pulling to one side, losing speed even if you step on the gas, brakes not working (I owned a Ford) 12. Anything else I do, but don't remember On top of all this you ask the newbie to predict what the car two lanes over is going to do in the next 1/4 mile? Times are tougher for beginning drivers these days. As for giving worthwhile driving lessons - how many children listen to their parents? I will do my best! She will not drive by herself for a year, even after she gets her licensee. > As for using Ferrari as an example - why don't you tell us what > maintenance intervals are for the Ferrari? I heard a rumor, and I will [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > often quoted line applied to a Ferrari, 'If you have to ask how much it > costs to maintain the car, you should not be buying the car!' I worked with a guy who had a Ferrari, IIRC it had about 80K on it at the time with no major engine work, but it did require regular and rather expensive maintenance. That said, it was absolutely immaculate inside and out. Not a car I'd be comfortable driving around but nothing inherently wrong with the design. >>As for using Ferrari as an example - why don't you tell us what >>maintenance intervals are for the Ferrari? I heard a rumor, and I will [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > out. Not a car I'd be comfortable driving around but nothing inherently > wrong with the design. I read somewhere that Ferrari's require engine maintenance every 5K miles that costs about $5K. I don't recall if this applies to old Ferrari's and/new. But if you can afford one, you can then afford the frequent maintenance costs. Dan > I read somewhere that Ferrari's require engine maintenance every 5K > miles that costs about $5K. I don't recall if this applies to old > Ferrari's and/new. But if you can afford one, you can then afford the > frequent maintenance costs. A lot of it is that the dealers have that same attitude and will rape you for every last cent they can. An interesting example I found online is that at least one model uses the same reciever/dryer in the A/C system as a Saab 900. The part from Ferrari is around $330, from Saab it's around $80, aftermarket is $29. That's quite a markup! |
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