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Car Forum / Saab Cars / October 2005SAAB Bi-Power
At fckn last ... SAAB have come up with something that makes a modern car worth buying. I must say, my allegiances started to slip towards Volvo over this matter, but SAAB have finally "got it". <http://www.trollhattansaab.net/archives/2005/04/more_on_the_bio.html> Paul 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ > At fckn last ... SAAB have come up with something that makes a modern car > worth buying. I must say, my allegiances started to slip towards Volvo > over > this matter, but SAAB have finally "got it". This info has been floating around for a few months now. One question I have, is if the engine can operate equally well with varying blends and with ethanol outperforms its gasoline powered brother, why not just include it by default in all Saabs? Or is this the ultimate goal? - tex >> At fckn last ... SAAB have come up with something that makes a modern car >> worth buying. I must say, my allegiances started to slip towards Volvo [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ethanol outperforms its gasoline powered brother, why not just include it by > default in all Saabs? Or is this the ultimate goal? The article was from April, but was part of a wider article about fuel that I was reading. As a first step, I would think so. I know of a few people who regularly use smaller concentrations, say up to 20%, ethanol as an octane enhancer for track days. It seems to be good on the late 9000s onwards ... Were they Trionic-5, or Trionic-3 throughout the production? It works. If SAAB is to move away from petrol (and/or diesel) as the primary fuel source then this is a good first step. I suppose it depends what kind of hand-in-glove relationship GM has with the oil companies. Paul 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ > If SAAB is to move away from petrol (and/or diesel) as the primary fuel > source then this is a good first step. I suppose it depends what kind of > hand-in-glove relationship GM has with the oil companies. It's going to take a bit more than just Saab cars to convince most petrol dealers to also start vending ethanol based fuels. Without widespread places which offer e85 fuel these vehicle offerings are moot. I know in some parts of the US anyway (mostly in the midwestern states where corn crops are king), ethanol blends are already offered at many fueling stations (but it's hardly widespread). Car companies today, including GM, realize that gasoline fuels are invariably on the decline. Long gone are the days when it was populist to think the car companies had an overly cozy relationship with the oil industry. In 20 years, car companies want to sell double the number of vehicles they are selling today. They know the only way they can conceivably do this is by coming up with vehicles fueled by non-petroleum resources. So the more important relationship here is between Saab and GM itself...will GM want to plunder the Saab technology for use in its other vehicles? I don't see why it shouldn't That would certainly give the technology a chance to prolifer. - tex > > If SAAB is to move away from petrol (and/or diesel) as the primary fuel > > source then this is a good first step. I suppose it depends what kind of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > crops are king), ethanol blends are already offered at many fueling stations > (but it's hardly widespread). I believe from what I've heard the Sweden is 'pushing' E85 to reduce dependence on imported oil. It probably does indeed need a government driven incentive to make things change. Left to their own devices, I'm sure that oil companies would prefer not to bother. > Car companies today, including GM, realize that gasoline fuels are > invariably on the decline. Long gone are the days when it was populist to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > vehicles? I don't see why it shouldn't That would certainly give the > technology a chance to prolifer. If GM had some brains they might do ! I see no evidence of this. I keep looking at the '06 9-5 and wonder what the hell's going on. Graham > If GM had some brains they might do ! I see no evidence of this. I'm guessing there must be some drawbacks to the system designed by the Saab engineers. perhaps mainly that they designed it around a turbo-charged engine? > I keep looking > at the '06 9-5 and wonder what the hell's going on. Heehehehe! Agreed...it's still styling is not easily for the eyes to digest. - tex >> I keep looking >> at the '06 9-5 and wonder what the hell's going on. > > Heehehehe! Agreed...it's still styling is not easily for the eyes to > digest. Most of it is not too bad, especially when looked at in context with the SUV. The lower fog lights are just the wrong shape for the car ... That shape looked wrong on Subaru, too, which is where I think it came from. The publicity shots make it look worse than it is. Actual photographs on the road, in real light look okay. Paul 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ >>> If SAAB is to move away from petrol (and/or diesel) as the primary fuel >>> source then this is a good first step. I suppose it depends what kind of [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > would > prefer not to bother. Your absolutely right. Sweden have pledged to rid their dependence upon oil by 2020. That they have also a programme to cease nuclear power is going to be an interesting one to watch ... I'm sure countries like Holland (and indeed the whole Netherlands, no doubt) will adopt a similar stance very quickly. I hope it spreads to the UK, too. The FFV will be sold in Sweden, the UK, Ireland, Holland & Spain, as well as China and Brazil. Okay, trial markets, but I bet the out-letters of LPG will have a stock of E85 overnight! What I like is that SAAB are once again truly deserving of the term 'eco-power'. Nice one! Now let's hope GM don't make an arse of it :) Paul 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ >> If SAAB is to move away from petrol (and/or diesel) as the primary fuel >> source then this is a good first step. I suppose it depends what kind of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > crops are king), ethanol blends are already offered at many fueling stations > (but it's hardly widespread). That's quite true. The fringe market it always interesting to watch, though. LPG (for example) is sold at a few outlets in the UK, but as you well put, it's not widespread. > Car companies today, including GM, realize that gasoline fuels are > invariably on the decline. Long gone are the days when it was populist to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > vehicles? I don't see why it shouldn't That would certainly give the > technology a chance to prolifer. I would hope they do. What I understood about the SAAB bio-power car was that it could feasibly run on petrol or E85 or any concentration in between. The Trionic-7 system is full adaptive to the fuel. I may be wrong. I may have read more into it. While I still see this as a first step towards a non-petrol car, it's a good step IMO. Unlike many other alternative fuels, the FFV is capable of running on petrol or a substitute (E85 in this case) without the need for a second fuel tank and without the need for an alternative fuel delivery system to switch over to. Now, one of these engines with a switch-over electric engine operating on the rear axle for in-town driving ... I'd buy one ... What I fear is a future where the sound of snorting V8s, burbling SAABs and grumbling TVRs are a thing of memory and a tear in the eye of the likes of you and me ... Sure, the air won't reek of petrol, but ... :) Paul 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ > That's quite true. The fringe market it always interesting to watch, though. > LPG (for example) is sold at a few outlets in the UK, but as you well put, > it's not widespread. LPG penetration is roughly 1 in 10. How does that compare to always trying to find Optimax for example? We have a car which was converted a couple of years ago and we considered the issue of number of LPG pumps. The difference is one of planning, nothing more, in that when going on a journey, I'll use one of the many resources available to check up on where the LPG pumps are. Choices include, a full country map, a website specifically for searching by town, road, postcode or my favourite which is an Autoroute overlay. In two years I have run out about 4 times I think, the furthest I was from an LPG filling station was about 5 miles. Sure that wasn't by chance but because I knew where they were and how to plan. As I said though, how does that compare to driving around without a care in the world then realising you want to fill up with solely Shell Optimax? So you might say "ah, but I can put *any* petrol in if i'm desperate!" and my response is "So can I!". I still have a 15 gallon fuel tank with a petrol system so it's not exactly a problem. In fact it's arguably better because if you go and fill the Saab tank up with lower grade fuel, the ECU will adapt down and then you have to re- adapt once you've got rid of all the low grade fuel. What you won't find is huge signs saying LPG all the time, you just need to know where to look. In fact, sometimes when pulling up at a filling station which says it does LPG, I *still* have to search to find it and have resorted to getting out and walking the pumps at times because they blend them in so damn well! :) Certainly if you're not looking, you won't see them. David. >> That's quite true. The fringe market it always interesting to watch, though. >> LPG (for example) is sold at a few outlets in the UK, but as you well put, [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Certainly if you're not looking, you won't see them. Well that certainly is interesting. More widespread than I thought. You're absolutely right about the chance of finding a particular garage that stocks your choice of petrol being a good comparison to finding LPG. Very interesting reading, indeed. Remind me, what car you run LPG on. The mechanics (5 or 6 door up the road) have an LPG tank and I've always been interested. I just need the right car. Paul 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ <snip> I have just been reading that the FFV is now ready for the market! SAAB have a "greater than expected" pre-order of around 800 vehicles and are releasing the car in Sweden imminently. Certain other EU states to follow. Paul 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ > Remind me, what car you run LPG on. The mechanics (5 or 6 door up the road) > have an LPG tank and I've always been interested. I just need the right car. Am I allowed to say, it's not a Saab ;) It's a Volvo estate. If you want any more info, i'll happily take further Q's offline rather than digress too much on the Saab newsgroup. David. >> Remind me, what car you run LPG on. The mechanics (5 or 6 door up the road) >> have an LPG tank and I've always been interested. I just need the right car. > > Am I allowed to say, it's not a Saab ;) Course you are! > It's a Volvo estate. If you want any more info, i'll happily take > further Q's offline rather than digress too much on the Saab newsgroup. Volvo, eh? No great drama - much respect for our Volvo brothers here, I would think. I can't see LPG being *that* good for an 8V C900 turbo, but I always had it in mind for any 9000 that I might own. The car might be worth the investment, if you see what I mean. I still regard LPG as a good fuel alternative at the moment, but given this ethanol idea, I can't help thinking whether it would work well with a Trionic-3 or Trionic-5 car. Paul 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ > Volvo, eh? No great drama - much respect for our Volvo brothers here, I > would think. Paul, Please..."cousins" at closest, not "brothers". Oh - by the way, my daughter (age 7) greeted me at the door yesterday with "Hey dad, you've got mail from the Queen!". Seems that there's an envelope which arrived, with "Royal Post" on it, from a friend of mine in England. Thank you very much, they're quite nice! Dave P.S. My daughter is a bit put out that you're not the Queen. Can you make some calls maybe? >> Volvo, eh? No great drama - much respect for our Volvo brothers here, I >> would think. > > Paul, Please..."cousins" at closest, not "brothers". Being a C900 T8 owner, I like "brother". The Volvo 8V block is very similar indeed. If I was an older/newer owner, perhaps I'd think "cousin" :) > Oh - by the way, my daughter (age 7) greeted me at the door yesterday > with "Hey dad, you've got mail from the Queen!". Seems that there's an > envelope which arrived, with "Royal Post" on it, from a friend of mine > in England. Thank you very much, they're quite nice! Yay! Thank fck the Royal Mail still have the capacity to actually deliver mail to its intended recipient! We have "some issues" with the service over here at the moment! Now stick them on your SAAB and go tear up some road!!! Must be worth a good 20-25 BHP on any pre-1973; perhaps 5-10 BHP on a good C900T or 99T. > P.S. My daughter is a bit put out that you're not the Queen. Can you > make some calls maybe? I'm not much into granny cross-dressing, or the accent, but I could try :) Paul 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ >> Oh - by the way, my daughter (age 7) greeted me at the door yesterday >> with "Hey dad, you've got mail from the Queen!". Seems that there's an >> envelope which arrived, with "Royal Post" on it, from a friend of mine >> in England. Thank you very much, they're quite nice! > Yay! Thank fck the Royal Mail still have the capacity to actually deliver > mail to its intended recipient! We have "some issues" with the service over > here at the moment! This is up there with "damn and blast British Telecom", is it? > Now stick them on your SAAB and go tear up some road!!! Must be worth a good > 20-25 BHP on any pre-1973; Sweet, my '63 will be...58-63 horsepower! W00T! > perhaps 5-10 BHP on a good C900T or 99T. I need to get that thing on the road, dammit, but the state is _still_ dicking me around with the title replacement. >> P.S. My daughter is a bit put out that you're not the Queen. Can you >> make some calls maybe? > I'm not much into granny cross-dressing, or the accent, but I could try :) Naah, no point, she'd spot it. Well, she caught on to the "ladies" on Monty Python's Flying Circus, anyway. So...ever seen ER? I spent 3 months over there in 1991-ish, and she changed my schedule when the two of us had a little encounter at Victoria Station... >>> Oh - by the way, my daughter (age 7) greeted me at the door yesterday >>> with "Hey dad, you've got mail from the Queen!". Seems that there's an [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Sweet, my '63 will be...58-63 horsepower! W00T! W00T! Bet thank thing will roar now :) >> perhaps 5-10 BHP on a good C900T or 99T. > > I need to get that thing on the road, dammit, but the state is _still_ > dicking me around with the title replacement. The 99T? Got a link to any progress? Is she fixed up yet ... Apart from the red tape, of course? >>> P.S. My daughter is a bit put out that you're not the Queen. Can you >>> make some calls maybe? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Naah, no point, she'd spot it. Well, she caught on to the "ladies" on > Monty Python's Flying Circus, anyway. It's the Batley Townswomen's Guild that always cracks me up .. I went to school in Batley! > So...ever seen ER? I spent 3 > months over there in 1991-ish, and she changed my schedule when the two > of us had a little encounter at Victoria Station... Our lass Alex Kingston? Yeah, I can "feel that" :) Paul 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ >> Sweet, my '63 will be...58-63 horsepower! W00T! > > W00T! Bet thank thing will roar now :) A bullnose 96 is astonishingly nimble even with stock horsepower. GREAT fun in the snow. >>> perhaps 5-10 BHP on a good C900T or 99T. >> >> I need to get that thing on the road, dammit, but the state is _still_ >> dicking me around with the title replacement. > > The 99T? Got a link to any progress? No linky...I'm not too gud with tha interwebs stuff... > Is she fixed up yet ... Apart from the > red tape, of course? Drives great. Er, that is, if it was legal to drive, which it isn't, of course, so I wouldn't consider test driving it. Yea, that's it. Zippy little fscker, I'll tell you. Well, less so after I figured out the wastegate was seized shut, but still zippy now that I fixed that. Which again, I wouldn't know because it's not legal to drive yet. Or something. >>>> P.S. My daughter is a bit put out that you're not the Queen. Can you >>>> make some calls maybe? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> months over there in 1991-ish, and she changed my schedule when the two >> of us had a little encounter at Victoria Station... > Our lass Alex Kingston? Yeah, I can "feel that" :) (google) Nope, that's definatly not the lady I saw in the hat and the Rolls Royce. Hm, nice though. Look at those ... eyes... (For the record, her IMDB photo doesn't look like the other ones google pulls up.) >>> So...ever seen ER? I spent 3 >>> months over there in 1991-ish, and she changed my schedule when the two [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Royce. Hm, nice though. Look at those ... eyes... (For the record, > her IMDB photo doesn't look like the other ones google pulls up.) Gah! WTF? You're right ... Curioser & Curioser ... I'll let the old grey matter mull this one over. For your edification ... Other Cirrus White T8 pilots are sporting the gang liveries :) <http://www.uksaabs.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=3732> Mmmm! Nice Incas :) Paul 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ >>>> So...ever seen ER? >>> Our lass Alex Kingston? Yeah, I can "feel that" :) >> (google) >> Nope, that's definatly not the lady I saw in the hat and the Rolls >> Royce. Hm, nice though. Look at those ... eyes... (For the record, >> her IMDB photo doesn't look like the other ones google pulls up.) > Gah! WTF? You're right ... That is not a good picture of her. > Curioser & Curioser ... I'll let the old grey matter mull this one over. Maybe I abbreviated it wrong and it should be E.R. ? > For your edification ... Other Cirrus White T8 pilots are sporting the gang > liveries :) <http://www.uksaabs.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=3732> We're a gang now? An international gang? Yikes. Do I have to write this on my income tax somewhere or anything, I wonder? > Mmmm! Nice Incas :) All incas, are nice incas. >>>>> So...ever seen ER? > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Maybe I abbreviated it wrong and it should be E.R. ? Now I get you ... Nope! >> For your edification ... Other Cirrus White T8 pilots are sporting the gang >> liveries :) <http://www.uksaabs.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=3732> > > We're a gang now? An international gang? Yikes. Do I have to write > this on my income tax somewhere or anything, I wonder? There is one Eduardo Grey T16S (Aero) sporting the tattoo, too! >> Mmmm! Nice Incas :) > > All incas, are nice incas. Shame I'm a rear wheel hand-braker :( > I can't see LPG being *that* good for an 8V C900 turbo, but I always had it I don't know, I just drive the "other" car on the long runs ;) I have heard of some 9000 turbo's being converted but don't know what's involved, I think you'd need to speak to a good LPG installer first. > investment, if you see what I mean. I still regard LPG as a good fuel > alternative at the moment, but given this ethanol idea, I can't help > thinking whether it would work well with a Trionic-3 or Trionic-5 car. What frustrates me with any of these fuels is that there's simply no government incentive to make it happen. Petrol is taxed so highly that they rather like the revenue from squeezing the motorist so much so that if they said "right that's it, no more petrol, lets have something environmentally friendly!", they'd still have to tax it the same otherwise the UK economy would collapse. I just can't see any great momentum to switch, they'd rather have us all on buses and trains (so they make out) which works for those that live close to train stations and do a daily commute but just doesn't work for those that have variable journeys due to the extortionate ticket pricing. Anyway, that's a whole new rant! :) David. > What frustrates me with any of these fuels is that there's simply no > government incentive to make it happen.... Exactly. This is not only true for the UK but also for NL. Politicians are all a bunch of hypocrites, not to mention the oil industry lobby. If politicians really care about the environment they should ban diesel outright, put a high(er) tax on petrol and subsidise use of LPG.  SignatureMH '72 97 '77 96 '78 95 '79 96 '91 900i > > What frustrates me with any of these fuels is that there's simply no > > government incentive to make it happen.... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > lobby. If politicians really care about the environment they should ban diesel > outright, put a high(er) tax on petrol and subsidise use of LPG. Is your thinking about banning diesel based on the particulates they make ? I've heard that bio-diesel is much better in this regard too. Graham > Is your thinking about banning diesel based on the particulates they make ? Yes, specially in urban areas. (Sulphur in diesel fuel is a problem too.) > I've heard that bio-diesel is much better in this regard too. Yes, about 65% reduction of particulates, but it produces more nitrogen oxides (NOx), which can be cured with a catalytic converter, but Diesel engines usualy do not have a cc because of the high sulphur content (which makes a cc useless). The 'best' fuel (relatively, of course) is hydrogen and oxygen, but LPG is environmentally friendly as well. To get some more SAAB content; my '79 96 runs both on LPG and petrol. I once did a test with a portable GC on its exhaust, running on LPG and then running on petrol, see http://members.home.nl/saab96/techtip/96GC-LPG.jpg The LPG graph (left) is a flat line; no hydrocarbon emisions, while the petrol graph (right) clearly shows peaks of benzene, toluene and xylene. SignatureMH '72 97 '77 96 '78 95 '79 96 '91 900i > > Is your thinking about banning diesel based on the particulates they make ? > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > The LPG graph (left) is a flat line; no hydrocarbon emisions, while the petrol > graph (right) clearly shows peaks of benzene, toluene and xylene. Good point. Petrol's a bugger to burn cleanly since it's made up of so many different molecules. In comparison a 'pure fuel' does much better. Alcohol should be very good in this regard too. I wonder if part of the reason for E85 rather than pure alcohol is to get some fuel system lubrication from the oil based content ? Graham >> > Is your thinking about banning diesel based on the particulates they >> > make ? [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Graham The reason for the 15% petrol in E85 is so the engine will start at temperatures below 15C. In Brazil, where they sell 100% ethanol at the pump, the recommendation is to fit a small supplemental petrol tank to allow the engine to start in lower temperatures. Maybe I missed this in earlier postings, but has anyone tried the E85 9-5? Is it actually available yet? Walt Kienzle 1991 9000T |
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