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Car Forum / Saab Cars / September 2007

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Intermittent engine vibration

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Doug Schwarz - 21 Sep 2007 18:19 GMT
I have a 1995 900S with an intermittent engine vibration.  It appears to
be related only to engine speed and it comes and goes.  Here are my
observations:

1.  I notice the vibration mainly through the gear shift lever and the
gas pedal.

2.  When it first started it would exist for an entire trip and then be
absent for another entire trip.  Now it seems to start and stop during a
trip and the amplitude varies, i.e., it's not the same intensity all the
time, but you definitely can notice when it's there and when it's not.

3.  It feels and sounds a bit like a hole in the exhaust system, but the
character of the sound does not change with the throttle.  It will be
present at idle.  If I get up to speed, press the clutch and then rev
the engine back up to the cruising rpm the vibration feels exactly the
same.  As a result I conclude that it's not related to the tires or
other drivetrain components after the clutch and also not a hole in the
exhaust system.

4.  It seems to peak in amplitude at about 3200 rpm.

5.  The other day I did quite a bit of driving around town on a hot day
(about 82 deg. F) and the vibration was absent so maybe it's temperature
dependent.

I called the local dealer and the service advisor said he'd never heard
of anything like that before.  I didn't get a chance to talk to a
mechanic.

Any ideas?  Thanks!

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Eeyore - 21 Sep 2007 18:34 GMT
> I have a 1995 900S with an intermittent engine vibration.  It appears to
> be related only to engine speed and it comes and goes.  Here are my
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> Any ideas?  Thanks!

I'd start by replacing the usual suspects in the ignition department. Especially
plugs and leads.

Graham
Charles C. - 21 Sep 2007 18:50 GMT
> I have a 1995 900S with an intermittent engine vibration.  It appears to
> be related only to engine speed and it comes and goes.  Here are my
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> other drivetrain components after the clutch and also not a hole in the
> exhaust system.

So it should happen with the car stationary.

> 4.  It seems to peak in amplitude at about 3200 rpm.

Ignition, any vacuum pipes.  There is a possibility that the vibration
is there after 3200 rpm but its frequency is such that you can't tell.

> 5.  The other day I did quite a bit of driving around town on a hot day
> (about 82 deg. F) and the vibration was absent so maybe it's temperature
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> of anything like that before.  I didn't get a chance to talk to a
> mechanic.

Does the car have a Direct Ignition cassette? :-)

Sorry, I had to have mine replaced recently (1997 9000) with the
symptoms being mainly a misfire (there is vibration for you) and having
got the new one I have realised that the car was rough for some time now
... but I could not tell.

One approach is to drive the car until it gets worse.

:-(
Charles

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Doug Schwarz - 22 Sep 2007 02:49 GMT
> > I have a 1995 900S with an intermittent engine vibration.  It appears to
> > be related only to engine speed and it comes and goes.  Here are my
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> So it should happen with the car stationary.

Yes, it happens when the car is stationary.

> > 4.  It seems to peak in amplitude at about 3200 rpm.
>
> Ignition, any vacuum pipes.  There is a possibility that the vibration
> is there after 3200 rpm but its frequency is such that you can't tell.

Yes, the vibration is there after 3200 rpm, it just seems to peak in
amplitude there.

I immediately suspected an electrical problem of some sort because of
the intermittent nature, but the service advisor said that the "check
engine" light would come on if one of the spark plugs was not firing.

> > 5.  The other day I did quite a bit of driving around town on a hot day
> > (about 82 deg. F) and the vibration was absent so maybe it's temperature
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Does the car have a Direct Ignition cassette? :-)

No, it's the 2.3L non-turbo and there is no mention of the DI with this
model.

> Sorry, I had to have mine replaced recently (1997 9000) with the
> symptoms being mainly a misfire (there is vibration for you) and having
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> :-(
> Charles

Thanks for your comments (and Graham, too).  I get the impression that
the vibration would be far worse if one cylinder was not firing at all,
but I will investigate further.  There doesn't seem to be any loss of
power and the car is perfectly drivable -- it just vibrates.

Any other thoughts, anyone?

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Eeyore - 22 Sep 2007 13:49 GMT
> I get the impression that the vibration would be far worse if one cylinder was
> not firing at all

Absolutely. You'd notice it big time. What you have may simply be an early
indication of a failing HT lead or whatever.

Graham
Jim M - 22 Sep 2007 18:04 GMT
> Any other thoughts, anyone?

Have you checked the inside of the distributor cap to see if it's clean.
Many of the non-turbo's (including my 1995 900S) have a leaky distributor
shaft seal. Mine's done it for years. It's only a little oil that gets by,
but every a few months it accumulates and I notice the idle is less smooth
and it's more difficult to start off from a stop(5sp-M/T). Lately I just
pull and clean the cap at every oil change (3k miles) and that works fine.

Jim
Doug Schwarz - 22 Sep 2007 19:06 GMT
> > Any other thoughts, anyone?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Jim

Jim,

Thanks for the suggestion.  As it so happens I have just come in from
having done exactly that!  Yes, there was some oil in there, but not
very much.  I cleaned it up and took a short test drive, but the
vibration was still present.

I visually inspected all the HT wires and they look to be in quite good
shape.  I'll have to look at the service records to see when they were
last replaced.  I realize that you can't tell if they're faulty just by
looking at the outside, but if they're new they're most likely okay.

In general, the vibration seems to be less frequent over the last couple
of days so I may have no choice but to wait until it gets worse.  I
don't actually drive much (often less than 100 miles per week) so that
may take a while.

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Eeyore - 22 Sep 2007 20:32 GMT
> > > Any other thoughts, anyone?
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> last replaced.  I realize that you can't tell if they're faulty just by
> looking at the outside, but if they're new they're most likely okay.

Sometimes things just fail unexpectedly.

Plugs can develop degraded insualtion for example.

I had a Vauxhall once that behaved a bit like your Saab. The problem turned out
to be a hairline crack in the distributor cap.

Graham
Doug Schwarz - 27 Sep 2007 04:22 GMT
> Sometimes things just fail unexpectedly.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Graham

Thanks, again, for your comments.

Today I replaced the coil, distributor cap, rotor and all HT wires.  The
spark plugs themselves were replaced at 95k miles (currently at 113k
miles so that's 18k miles ago).  No change in symptoms.  Well, at least
now I know what is *not* causing the vibration.

As an aside, the rotor was very hard to remove.  I literally had to saw
and crush it to get it off and then lightly file the shaft to remove all
the bits that were still stuck on.  Weird.

Any other suggestions anyone?  Charles suggested leaking vacuum hoses --
how would I check those?  Could an engine mount fail intermittently?

For those just tuning in: I have a 1995 900S with an intermittent engine
vibration.  It doesn't matter whether the car is moving or stationary
and it seems to peak in amplitude at about 3200 rpm.

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Charles C. - 27 Sep 2007 18:30 GMT
>> Sometimes things just fail unexpectedly.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Any other suggestions anyone?  Charles suggested leaking vacuum hoses --
> how would I check those?  Could an engine mount fail intermittently?

What you are looking for is a possible misfire.

One way of checking for leaking hoses (sucking rather than blowing) is -
I am told - to have the engine at idling speed, and spray carburettor
cleaner liquid (gas) to the various hoses and connectors.

If you work slowly round the engine, if you find a leaking (sucking)
point, the revs of the engine will increase.

Another possible cause of vibration would be a misfire caused by a
leaking head gasket.  If (I guess) the misfire is bad enough for you to
notice the vibration then you should be able to notice a luck of pulling
power.  It could also differ between a cold and hot engine, and
certainly under the heavier loads.

> For those just tuning in: I have a 1995 900S with an intermittent engine
> vibration.  It doesn't matter whether the car is moving or stationary
> and it seems to peak in amplitude at about 3200 rpm.

Engine mount.  Would have been my next suggestion ... but it should be a
lot more obvious or different with the car in motion.  Accelerating or
decelerating would move the engine and change the vibration.

=====================

Engine timing out?
Anyone? How does the timing work on this model (sorry my knowledge is as
far as early c900s).  Does it have points in the distributor or
electronic gadgetry?

Charles

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Jorgen Moquist - 28 Sep 2007 02:24 GMT
>>> Sometimes things just fail unexpectedly.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
>
> Charles

OT: had an Mitsubishi -91 Colt GTI 1.8L 16V ( pre GDI engine ).
    once one ignition wire was bad, runned very bad around 2000-2200rpm.
    no problem running under or over 2000rpm.
/jorgen
Charles C. - 27 Sep 2007 18:42 GMT
> I have a 1995 900S with an intermittent engine vibration.  It appears to
> be related only to engine speed and it comes and goes.  Here are my
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> other drivetrain components after the clutch and also not a hole in the
> exhaust system.

OK, a different take.

If it sounds like an exhaust assume it is exhaust related.

If you open the engine hood (bonnet) can you hear that sound?  Anything
at the exhaust manifold?

A blowing head gasket (got to be blowing badly) would produce some
hishing(?) sound.  If you took a look at the sparking plugs do they all
look the same (brown/grey colour).  Is there one or two adjacent plugs
which are different to the rest (oily, black or wet).  Too far fetched,
you should be able to tell from luck of power.

> 4.  It seems to peak in amplitude at about 3200 rpm.
>
> 5.  The other day I did quite a bit of driving around town on a hot day
> (about 82 deg. F) and the vibration was absent so maybe it's temperature
> dependent.

Not enough fuel so on a hot day it had enough on colder days not so ...
should not matter when the engine is at working temperature tho.

> I called the local dealer and the service advisor said he'd never heard
> of anything like that before.  I didn't get a chance to talk to a
> mechanic.
>
> Any ideas?  Thanks!

All I can say is have another go at describing the problem (using
different words).

Cheers
Charles

PS. Wild guess, flywheel/clutch issue.  But should really change with revs.

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Doug Schwarz - 28 Sep 2007 08:02 GMT
In article <46fbe943$0$8415$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>,

[snip]

> > Any other suggestions anyone?  Charles suggested leaking vacuum hoses --
> > how would I check those?  Could an engine mount fail intermittently?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> If you work slowly round the engine, if you find a leaking (sucking)
> point, the revs of the engine will increase.

Okay, I'll try that when I get a chance.

> Another possible cause of vibration would be a misfire caused by a
> leaking head gasket.  If (I guess) the misfire is bad enough for you to
> notice the vibration then you should be able to notice a luck of pulling
> power.  It could also differ between a cold and hot engine, and
> certainly under the heavier loads.

I haven't noticed any lack of power.

> Engine mount.  Would have been my next suggestion ... but it should be a
> lot more obvious or different with the car in motion.  Accelerating or
> decelerating would move the engine and change the vibration.

Agreed and there is no correlation with acceleration or turning.

> Engine timing out?
> Anyone? How does the timing work on this model (sorry my knowledge is as
> far as early c900s).

I don't know.

> Does it have points in the distributor or electronic gadgetry?

No points so I guess that means electronic ignition.  Nothing too fancy.

> > I have a 1995 900S with an intermittent engine vibration.  It appears to
> > be related only to engine speed and it comes and goes.  Here are my
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> If it sounds like an exhaust assume it is exhaust related.

It was certainly my first thought, but how could an exhaust problem be
intermittent?

> If you open the engine hood (bonnet) can you hear that sound?  Anything
> at the exhaust manifold?

No, although I can't rev the engine with my head under the hood/bonnet.

> A blowing head gasket (got to be blowing badly) would produce some
> hishing(?) sound.  If you took a look at the sparking plugs do they all
> look the same (brown/grey colour).  Is there one or two adjacent plugs
> which are different to the rest (oily, black or wet).  Too far fetched,
> you should be able to tell from luck of power.

I haven't pulled the plugs because I don't have the deep socket I would
need, but they were changed 18k miles ago.  No lack of power.

> All I can say is have another go at describing the problem (using
> different words).

Thank you, Charles, for sticking with me on this.

I'll list my observations being as specific as I can.  I know there's
nothing like actually experiencing the problem first hand.

1.  1995 900S, 2.3l non-turbo, 4 cyl., 113k miles.  I've owned the car
for all but 8k of those miles so I'm very familiar with the feel of it.  
Normally, it is smooth.

2.  Went on a long trip (375 miles there, visited a few days, 375 miles
home).  Next time I drove the car (short trip to store evening of
return) the extra vibration was present for the whole trip -- from
starting of the engine to shut down both there and back.

3.  Next day, no extra vibration at all.

4.  Next day, extra vibration present for all driving that day.

5.  Extra vibration gone for a while -- I thought (hoped) forever.

6.  It progressed into an intermittent problem.  Now it comes and goes
during a trip -- perhaps several times or it might not happen at all or
it might happen for the whole trip.  These are just short, around-town,
trips, 10-30 minutes.

7.  Description of vibration: It feels and sounds a bit like a hole in
the exhaust -- low pitch, feel it on the gear shift and gas pedal, don't
feel it on the steering wheel.  A passenger not touching anything might
not notice it at all.  An exhaust problem I would expect to vary in
amplitude with engine throughput -- more gas, more vibration.  This is
*not* what I observe.  Vibration seems to be independent of engine
throughput, only dependent on engine speed.  It happens when the car is
stationary and is exactly the same as when the car is moving.  It seems
to increase in amplitude as engine revs increase, up to about 3200 rpm
where it either peaks or at least levels off.

The vibration is not random feeling.  What I mean is that if the engine
was misfiring randomly -- random sparks not occurring, say -- you would
notice that randomness in the feel, it would feel jerky.  That is not
what happens.  This vibration is very regular.  It feels just like the
normal engine vibration, but just at a greater amplitude.  Does that
make sense?

That's about the best I can do.  If you think of anything let me know,
but I may just have to see if it gets worse or hope I can demonstrate it
to a mechanic.  The local dealer is about 25 minutes away so by the time
I get there it may not be happening any more.  I'd hate to have to leave
it with them for a few days for such a minor problem.  The car is quite
drivable after all.  But I worry that the vibration is indicative of
something potentially serious.  Besides, it's just annoying!

Thanks, again.

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