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Car Forum / Saab Cars / January 2008Buying an old (1980-1983) Saab good idea?
What can I expect if I buy such a car and what will be the best type if there is any choice. Can such a engine run on LPG and what mileage will I get on petrol? ( we use km/litre ) Edmund Edmund (Edmund <nomail@hotmail.com>) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: > What can I expect if I buy such a car and what will be the best type if > there is any choice. Can such a engine run on LPG and what mileage will > I get on petrol? If you only do a very small mileage in it as a second/weekend car, the cost of fuel will be irrelevant. If you do a decent mileage in it as a main car, the cost of fuel will be nothing compared to the cost and hassle of constant maintenance. >What can I expect if I buy such a car and what will >be the best type if there is any choice. >Can such a engine run on LPG and what mileage will >I get on petrol? >( we use km/litre ) Not a good idea at all. Do yourself a really big favor and don't do it. There are plenty of reliable cheap Japanese cars out there. > >What can I expect if I buy such a car and what will > >be the best type if there is any choice. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Not a good idea at all. Do yourself a really big favor and don't do > it. There are plenty of reliable cheap Japanese cars out there. It depends on what the car is for. There are probably easier cars to live with on a small budget, but maybe it is for historical interests in the marque. OP using a hotmail address makes it possible that it could be a troll? But there is not much else in the group at this time. >> >What can I expect if I buy such a car and what will >> >be the best type if there is any choice. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >in the marque. OP using a hotmail address makes it possible that it >could be a troll? But there is not much else in the group at this time. Probably not a troll but naive sounding. These are cars to avoid if you have a low budget and need reliability. The chances are that most cars of that vintage will need a sh.t load of money spent just to get back to good running order. There can be a multitude of stuff which needs replacing/repair and unless you have access to a pick and pull and your own workshop it could end up being a savaging loss. On the other hand, you never know your luck. You can buy an absolute dunger and be surprised by having it run for a long time without trouble. Conversion to LPG wouldn't be cheap. I don't know which country the OP is in but here in Australia an LPG conversion would cost more than the care is worth. Much better idea to buy a cheap Japanese car (anything but a Mitsubish or Mazdai). >>> >What can I expect if I buy such a car and what will >>> >be the best type if there is any choice. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Much better idea to buy a cheap Japanese car (anything but a Mitsubish > or Mazdai). Ah, I understand your reticence!! In Europe spares are pretty simple to source, as these are European Cars. In Australia it's far easier, (I imagine) due to Geography to get parts for an old Japanese car than an old European one. However, I would agree that running a car of that age is a risk regarding repair costs, depending on useage. I certainly wouldn't entertain putting an LPG system in one. Al >Ah, I understand your reticence!! In Europe spares are pretty simple to >source, as these are European Cars. In Australia it's far easier, (I >imagine) due to Geography to get parts for an old Japanese car than an old >European one. It is true that there are a lot of Japanese cars here but there are enough old Saabs in the wreckers yards and you can still order many parts brand new from GM Holden dealerships. For hard to get parts it is possible to order from the US and have the parts delivered within a week. >However, I would agree that running a car of that age is a risk regarding >repair costs, depending on useage. I certainly wouldn't entertain putting >an LPG system in one. They are basically just more unreliable compared with Japanese cars of the same vintage. This is not peculiar to Saabs, most European cars are more unreliable (at least in the conditions we have here). > What can I expect if I buy such a car Lots of work probably. > and what will be the best type if there is any choice. > Can such a engine run on LPG and what mileage will > I get on petrol? > ( we use km/litre ) Why as old as 80-83 ? I'm thinking there might be issues with using unleaded petrol too. Graham > > What can I expect if I buy such a car > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Graham It could be exempt from UK Road Fund Tax if the car is over 25 years old. > > > What can I expect if I buy such a car > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > It could be exempt from UK Road Fund Tax if the car is over 25 years old. True. It would still be a pain finding leaded petrol though. The OP seesm to be from the Netherlands btw. Graham >> > What can I expect if I buy such a car >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> Why as old as 80-83 ? I'm thinking there might be issues with using >> unleaded petrol too. >It could be exempt from UK Road Fund Tax if the car is over 25 years old. ITYM "pre-1973". The 25-year rule was frozen at pre-'73 a few years ago. In SAAB terms, that probably means a 95 or 96 V4 (the 99 was around, but I've not seen one that old in many years - by contrast, there still seem to be a few of the V4 cars around). A 95 or 96 would make a reasonable daily driver, given care and attention. I see one around locally that's used like that - but it will need more looking after than a modern car, and things will occasionally break.  SignatureAndy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair) johannes (johannes <johs@sizefit876655ter.com>) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: >> Why as old as 80-83 ? I'm thinking there might be issues with using >> unleaded petrol too. > It could be exempt from UK Road Fund Tax if the car is over 25 years > old. It could be. But it won't be. Because free VED is only for cars built prior to 1/1/73. > johannes (johannes <johs@sizefit876655ter.com>) gurgled happily, sounding > much like they were saying: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > It could be. But it won't be. Because free VED is only for cars built > prior to 1/1/73. When was it fixed at 1973 ? Wot a swizz is wot i say ! Graham >> What can I expect if I buy such a car > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Why as old as 80-83 ? I'm thinking there might be issues with using > unleaded petrol too. It is for our tax scheme, at this moment we don't have to pay tax ( kind of road tax ) for it if the car is more then 25 years old. I am not sure but I guess our taxes are the highest in the world. ( Netherland ). After reading these reactions, I think I buy something else :-) > Graham Edmund > >> What can I expect if I buy such a car > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > After reading these reactions, I think I buy > something else :-) Pop over to www.saabforum.nl ... you'll change your mind. >It is for our tax scheme, at this moment we don't >have to pay tax ( kind of road tax ) for it if [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >After reading these reactions, I think I buy >something else :-) Do you mean "road taxes" are highest in the world? What sort of taxes do you pay? I can;t imagine anything being higher than the tax burden in the USA :-) >> Graham > >Edmund > I can;t imagine anything being higher than the tax burden in the USA > :-) Uh ? About 30% of your US income goes in taxes. In mainland Europe it's about 50%. Graham >> I can;t imagine anything being higher than the tax burden in the USA >> :-) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Graham That 30% would have to be an average... which in a country as diverse as the USA is really misleading. In most industrialized states, we pay 20-30% in income taxes to the Federal Gov't on income, then another 5-10% in State income tax, a sales tax on all sales, and major property tax on any real estate owned. On vehicles, most states have an initial sales tax in addition to a yearly excise tax or a registration fee that is value related. It's hard to compare, because so many services and such are or are not wrapped into a country's economic model. For example, health care in the USA is privately paid for to the tune of $10-12K/year for most. Roads are paid for by federal, state, and direct gasoline taxes that you pay in addition. Pretty much everything else is taxed in some way too, with a sales tax, an excise tax - sometimes both! So, just curious as to what the "rate" in .nl, even though it's totally uncomparable :-) >>> I can;t imagine anything being higher than the tax burden in the >>> USA [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > So, just curious as to what the "rate" in .nl, even though it's > totally uncomparable :-) Hi, it doesnt really matter much ow much tax you pay. In the end, it all goes round in circles, and whatever you pay you are likely to get back at some point. The only difference is that countries spread the tax "burden/profits" over the population in different ways. Wikipedia has some info. Richard. >Hi, >it doesnt really matter much ow much tax you pay. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >The only difference is that countries spread the tax "burden/profits" >over the population in different ways. In the USA, we tend not to spread it - we just give most of it to large corporations to that their executives can take home tens of millions in salary and bonuses while they ship the jobs and money off shore to third world countries where they get labor for .35 cents/hour. > >It is for our tax scheme, at this moment we don't > >have to pay tax ( kind of road tax ) for it if [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I can;t imagine anything being higher than the tax burden in the USA Dear me... In Denmark you pay for 3 cars and get 1. >>It is for our tax scheme, at this moment we don't >>have to pay tax ( kind of road tax ) for it if [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I can;t imagine anything being higher than the tax burden in the USA > :-) We don't have road tax anymore, we used to call it road tax but since our government did use this “road tax” for all but the roads it was called an illegal tax and now it is named it different. For a 1200 kg car on petrol we pay 432 Euro/year tax 880 euro/year on diesel 932 euro/year on LPG Our gas prizes are most tax too one litre petrol costs 1.48 euro!, not a gallon, a litre. For a new car we pay an additional 4 % import tax then about 23 % illegal tax which we call BPM and over the new sum we pay 19 % BTW, next year that will be 20 %. I heard only Denmark is more expansive but they urn about twice as much as we do in Netherland. Parking a car is next to impossible and cost up to 4.75 euro/hour. Our smart government invented a new way to squeeze even more money out of us, in a few years time we have pay for each km we actually drive in our car in addition to all this. We have to buy a GPS device which records every inch that our cars moves and we have to pay for that too. Besides that we have a zillion different taxes and sneaky local taxes that are called different. Edmund >>> Graham >> >>Edmund > >>It is for our tax scheme, at this moment we don't > >>have to pay tax ( kind of road tax ) for it if [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > Besides that we have a zillion different taxes and sneaky > local taxes that are called different. Just curious. The very high tax burden in continental Europe is widely attributed to the cost of providing fairly generous 'social provision' like state pensions, health service and unemployment and illness benefits. In view of those high taxes are people generally (in your opinion) still willing to pay this much for those services ? Graham >> Besides that we have a zillion different taxes and sneaky >> local taxes that are called different. Just curious. The very high tax burden in continental Europe is widely > attributed to the cost of providing fairly generous 'social provision' like > state pensions, health service and unemployment and illness benefits. > > In view of those high taxes are people generally (in your opinion) still > willing to pay this much for those services ? Hard to tell, I really do not want to go into detail with all this, but a lot of people realize it is getting worse and worse. I heard there never where more people leaving the country then at this time, in my personal surroundings several have emigrated to spain. Most people here don't have a clue from what is happening and the Dutch only complain but never take any action and never protest to anything. I that way you can say they are "willing" to pay for it. > Graham Edmund >>>It is for our tax scheme, at this moment we don't >>>have to pay tax ( kind of road tax ) for it if [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > "road tax" for all but the roads it was called an illegal > tax and now it is named it different. ... and still the money is spent on car-related issues. :) > For a 1200 kg car on petrol we pay 432 Euro/year tax > 880 euro/year on diesel > 932 euro/year on LPG ONLY for cars that have the old LPG system, the newer cars (1996 -> ) have G3, and then the tax is around 500 EURO... > Our gas prizes are most tax too one litre petrol > costs 1.48 euro!, not a gallon, a litre. Yes, and LPG is 0,60 per liter. > For a new car we pay an additional 4 % import tax then > about 23 % illegal tax which we call BPM and over the new > sum we pay 19 % BTW, next year that will be 20 %. Some say it is illegal, but every country in Europe can decide on their own tax system. No, BTW will remain 19% in 2008. > I heard only Denmark is more expansive but they urn about > twice as much as we do in Netherland. Not true. The average income in DK is only a bit higher than in NL. > Parking a car is next to impossible and cost up to 4.75 euro/hour. What are you doing with a car in an old city center never designed for cars? :-D If you live in a city centre you get / buy a parking licence. If you go to a city centre you park outside the center for cheap and get a free bus ticket. > Our smart government invented a new way to squeeze even more money > out of us, in a few years time we have pay for each km we actually > drive in our car in addition to all this. Not true. If you drive less than average you pay less. > We have to buy a GPS device which records every inch that our cars > moves and we have to pay for that too. Not true. There has been discussion about such a system, but it has been postponed until it is technically feasable... and acceptable in terms of privacy. It doesnt look like it is going to happen. > Besides that we have a zillion different taxes and sneaky > local taxes that are called different. ... to pay for all the problems car-owners and drivers are causing! :) > Edmund > >>>> Graham >>> >>>Edmund Buy a 1996 Renault Megane G3 LPG. You have one for 2000 EURO, pay 35 EURO tax per month, and drive on 0,60 EURO LPG and 14 km/liter... Thats even cheaper than public transport! ;-) Richard. >> We don't have road tax anymore, we used to call >> it road tax but since our government did use this [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ... and still the money is spent on car-related issues. > :) No it is not! >> For a 1200 kg car on petrol we pay 432 Euro/year tax >> 880 euro/year on diesel >> 932 euro/year on LPG > > ONLY for cars that have the old LPG system, the newer cars (1996 -> ) > have G3, and then the tax is around 500 EURO... Around 500? it is 600 and rising, on top of that one need a very expensive G3 installation. >> Our gas prizes are most tax too one litre petrol costs 1.48 euro!, not >> a gallon, a litre. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > own tax system. > No, BTW will remain 19% in 2008. I corrected that it will be 20% a year later. >> I heard only Denmark is more expansive but they urn about twice as much >> as we do in Netherland. > > Not true. The average income in DK is only a bit higher than in NL. That is not what I heard from people I met during the holidays. Besides that it is impossible to compare with all the sneaky hidden taxes and costs we have here. >> Parking a car is next to impossible and cost up to 4.75 euro/hour. > > What are you doing with a car in an old city center never designed for > cars? :-D Driving to my work. > If you live in a city centre you get / buy a parking licence. That is so cheap right? NOT. If you go > to a city centre you park outside the center for cheap and get a free > bus ticket. Parking in alkmaar isn't cheap, parking in Amsterdam is impossible and expensive and your car is robbed when you come back. Nowhere you get a free bus ticket either. >> Our smart government invented a new way to squeeze even more money out >> of us, in a few years time we have pay for each km we actually drive in >> our car in addition to all this. > > Not true. > If you drive less than average you pay less. Wanne make a bet on it? >> We have to buy a GPS device which records every inch that our cars >> moves and we have to pay for that too. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > until it is technically feasable... and acceptable in terms of privacy. > It doesnt look like it is going to happen. There is no such thing as privacy in Netherland, and the government is not telling anything yet ( ministry of information ) but they are already taking "irreversible steps", these are there exact words! >> Besides that we have a zillion different taxes and sneaky local taxes >> that are called different. > > ... to pay for all the problems car-owners and drivers are causing! :) No they don't, they spent only a fraction of it on roads and stuff. But they give themself a 30 % raise in pay. Edmund >>> We don't have road tax anymore, we used to call >>> it road tax but since our government did use this [quoted text clipped - 100 lines] > > Edmund Dear Edmund, I think you are just wining. I am sorry. Here are the numbers. Spending of government departments in 2006: Total expenses related to cars and transport: 6 290 + 7 073 = 13 363 million + 6 458 ? = 19 821 million http://statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/Table.asp?STB=G1&LA=nl&DM=SLNL&PA=60050&D1=a&D2=a &D3=(l-4)-l&HDR=T&LYR=G2:4 Total tax income from cars and trucks: 2 143 + 513 + 3 452 + 94 + 3 982 + 2 836 +4 545 = 17 565 million. http://statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/Table.asp?STB=T&LA=nl&DM=SLNL&PA=70122ned&D1=a&D2 =(l-5)-l&HDR=G1 It depends on what you add and what not. You can also add some of the health related costs... but I didnt. I think income and expenses are close. Average car in NL is 1135 kg (2004), tax is 500 Euro for LPG G3. http://www.cbs.nl/nl-NL/menu/themas/verkeer-vervoer/publicaties/artikelen/archie f/2005/2005-1789-wm.htm and http://www.belastingdienst.nl/reken/motorrijtuigenbelasting/ Average income in NL and DK is comparable, even a percent or so higher in NL, but taxes are higher: GDP NL: 132.6 GDP DK: 126.0 http://epp.eurostat.cec.eu.int/portal/page?_pageid=1996,39140985&_dad=portal&_sc hema=PORTAL&screen=detailref&language=en&product=EU_MAIN_TREE&root=EU_MAIN_TREE% 2Fbasic%2Fstrind%2Fecobac%2Feb011 and: http://www.cbs.nl/nl-NL/menu/themas/dossiers/eu/cijfers/default.htm http://epp.eurostat.cec.eu.int/portal/page?_pageid=1996,39140985&_dad=portal&_sc hema=PORTAL&screen=detailref&language=en&product=EU_MAIN_TREE&root=EU_MAIN_TREE% 2Fbasic%2FYEARLIES_NEW%2FB%2FB1%2FB13%2Fdad14096 The tax per km has been postponed until AFTER the next elections. We all know what will happen then, because nobody wants to pay more for their cars. The system will only be applied to trucks. I want to take up that bet, yes. There is no "ministry of information" in NL. What do you mean? The system to track you is based on RFID chips technology, that has nothing to do with GPS. "They" ? Are you getting paranoid? The only people I know that moved abroad were the people that had so much money that they didnt have to care about social security, and tried to move the money to another country where they pay less tax, or no taxes at all. Most of them went to Belgium or Luxemburg, less than 150 km away, and drove to Holland a few times per week. Oh drove? By car? Really? Yes, really... Why you want to go to Amsterdam centre by CAR from Alkmaar is totally beyond me. But you will have a reason to complain... I agree. I bet you even have to drive in rush hour? No more responses from me, I am totally put off by your compaining. Sorry. Richard. > Do you mean "road taxes" are highest in the world? What sort of taxes > do you pay? We have to pay income tax nationally. We have to pay council tax locally based on property value, even if you are renting rather than owning the property. We have to pay duty on cigarettes, fuel and alcohol. We have to pay tax on cigarettes, fuel and alcohol. We have to pay tax on the duty cigarettes, fuel and alcohol. We have to pay tax on car insurance premiums (compulsory if you want to drive on the road). Then we have to pay tax to the government each year if you want to actually use the road, if you don't pay, your car/bike/van can be crushed. That is what the average brit driver pays SignatureCarl Robson Audio stream: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com:8000/samtest Homepage: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com Elder (Elder <carl.robson@bouncing-czechs.com>) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: > That is what the average brit driver pays Yet UK taxation is towards the lower end of european countries, viewed as a whole. Sure, it's not as low as the US - but that's a small price to pay for not getting left to die in the streets like dogs if our credit cards don't have enough space on 'em... >Yet UK taxation is towards the lower end of european countries, viewed as >a whole. > >Sure, it's not as low as the US - but that's a small price to pay for not >getting left to die in the streets like dogs if our credit cards don't >have enough space on 'em... They won't leave you to die in the USA, but our health care financing system is a mess and needs much reform. Unfortunately, the monied interests own lots of politicians and have lots of money to throw around to prevent any change to a system that keeps their coffers full. still just me (still just me <wheeledBobNOSPAM@yahoo.com>) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: >>Sure, it's not as low as the US - but that's a small price to pay for >>not getting left to die in the streets like dogs if our credit cards >>don't have enough space on 'em... > They won't leave you to die in the USA Whilst it was a slight exaggeration - and the NHS is _FAR_ from perfect - I've seen too many collecting boxes (especially in the poorer bits of the rural south) to wholly believe that. >Whilst it was a slight exaggeration - and the NHS is _FAR_ from perfect - >I've seen too many collecting boxes (especially in the poorer bits of the >rural south) to wholly believe that. Well, the South, yeah, but that's not part of the USA. :-) > Yet UK taxation is towards the lower end of european countries, viewed as > a whole. But so is the standard of living. Compared to many. SignatureCarl Robson Audio stream: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com:8000/samtest Homepage: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com > > Yet UK taxation is towards the lower end of european countries, viewed as > > a whole. > > > But so is the standard of living. > Compared to many. I find that Tax on insurance is the most offensive invention. Insurance is a form of solidarity; if I am fortunate enough not to require a payout, then my money goes towards helping someone else in misery from an accident. > What can I expect if I buy such a car and what will > be the best type if there is any choice. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Edmund Hi Edmund - Good choice with a SAAB. For the period you are looking at, there were three SAAB mdoels available on the market: the 96, the 99 and the 900. Of those models, the 99 and 900 are more popular, but there is nothing wrong with the 96 of the day. Of the 99 and 900, there were carburetted and turbo-charged variants for the 99 and the 900 and a fuel-injected model for the 900. It comes down to personal choice over the model and the engine, but the turbo cars were pretty awesome, even then - the 99 was the turbo- classic of the day. Black, two door. Lovely. That said, the 900 is more plentiful for parts (although that might depend on where you live), but both the 99 and 900 shared the Bosch CIS/K-Jet system (on the FI & turbo cars) that was used on VW & Audi back then; a lot of parts are still available new from Bosch. Why specifically 1980-1983? Pre-APC? 1983 was the year SAAB launced APC for the turbo cars and that engine configuration was a stunner. One year I would steer clear of is 1980 - there was a steel strike in Sweden that year and cheaper imported steel was used, but was not as well treated. Cars from that year seem more prone to rust, if they are still around. 1979 was the launch year of the 900, 1980, the final year for the 96 and 1984 the final year for the 99. By 1982, SAAB had got over the complicated GL, GLS, GLi, GLSi and EMS models (in most markets) and fuel injection was very much commonplace. Me? I'd go for either a fuel-injected or turbo-charged 900. Both are very good cars, but the turbo was quite a stunner. Fuel mileage? 10 Km/L shouldn't be a problem, but I just ran 25 MPG through google conversion, so I don't know it that is proper gallons or those little US gallons :) > Hi Edmund - Good choice with a SAAB. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Why specifically 1980-1983? 25 years old mean I don't have to pay tax for owning the car, at least for a few years to come. A car like this on LPG means saving about 950 euro's a year. > Pre-APC? 1983 was the year SAAB launced APC for the turbo cars and that > engine configuration was a stunner. Sorry what is APC? > One year I would steer clear of is 1980 - there was a steel strike in > Sweden that year and cheaper imported steel was used, but was not as [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > through google conversion, so I don't know it that is proper gallons > or those little US gallons :) Where ( which country ) do you live? Why all these people say I shouldn't buy such an old Saab? I think these Saabs looks nice and solid, but reading these replies ......... I also heard the turbo's are not the most reliable and it might not be best suited for converting to LPG. Thanks for your info Edmund > > Hi Edmund - Good choice with a SAAB. > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > the car, at least for a few years to come. > A car like this on LPG means saving about 950 euro's a year. Ah ... okay, I understand that. I wondered whether 1980-1983 was chosen for a specific model. > > Pre-APC? 1983 was the year SAAB launced APC for the turbo cars and that > > engine configuration was a stunner. > > Sorry what is APC? I will refer you to Wikipedia, if I may? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Performance_Control ... essentially an early "boost controller" to allow the turbo car to run reliably on all grades of fuel. I do not know how adaptive it is for running LPG. Does anyone else know, for certain? > > One year I would steer clear of is 1980 - there was a steel strike in > > Sweden that year and cheaper imported steel was used, but was not as [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I also heard the turbo's are not the most reliable and > it might not be best suited for converting to LPG. I am in the UK. I have run "Classic" 900s as my daily car for about seven years now and so does my wife. The turbo car is as reliable as the fuel injected car, in fact, it is the best of the model line-up for that period. Pre-APC turbo cars (the ones before 1983) must run on high octane petrol and do not run as high boost (so, less power) as the cars with the APC system. You might (just) find a car fitted with APC that was over 25 years old. However ... Since LPG seems to be the fuel system you require, do consider the normal fuel injected car. In this period (for the 8V 900), the fuel system simply squirted fuel in all the time (hence, CIS - continuous injection). I don't pretend to know much about LPG, but if all you need to do is drill the intake runners and fit new injectors, set up the timing to go bang at the right time, then the SAAB 900 8V engine is about as simple as it gets. I know of many successful LPG installations in Volvos and VWs from the early part of the 1980s and their engines were very similar to SAAB's. I do not know how a turbo car would cope with LPG. Can someone else enlighten us here? > Thanks for your info My pleasure :) Do check out the forums at http://www.saabforum.nl and find ask about how people have installed LPG into their old SAABs. It is not very popular in the UK, but I know it is more popular in Europe. > Ah ... okay, I understand that. I wondered whether 1980-1983 was > chosen for a specific model. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I do not know how adaptive it is for running LPG. Does anyone else > know, for certain? OK I do understand that and I do know a little about engines and fuel in general. In principe LPG should do just fine in a turbo engine because of the high octane number of LPG. However with the "old" LPG system where the gas in sucked in via the air intake.........might not be a good idea since the explosive mixture is then going through the turbo. > Since LPG seems to be the fuel system you require, do consider the > normal fuel injected car. In this period (for the 8V 900), the fuel [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > installations in Volvos and VWs from the early part of the 1980s and > their engines were very similar to SAAB's. I think I will take a look at such a Saab 900 8V. Does that stands for 8 valve or something else. Are all the engines the same in a Saab 900 8V if not what is the best durable engine? Edmund > I think I will take a look at such a Saab 900 8V. > Does that stands for 8 valve or something else. > Are all the engines the same in a Saab 900 8V > if not what is the best durable engine? 8V = Eight Valve, yes. The 8V engine is known as the B201. The car engine code will start with B201 on the ownership documents. There were two variants of this engine, B & H. The B engine (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_B_engine) was derived from Triumph. This was fitted to the 99 model and the early 900 model (up to about 1981). The H engine (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_H_engine) is a further development and considered to be the better of the two. The so- called H engine was available as both an 8V and 16V, as 2.0L, 2.1L and 2.3L in various models up to very recently). For your interest (up to about 1983), there were only 8V engines in the 900. The better one for your needs is the B201 H engine. You will be able to spot this, because it was a silver cam cover (see: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/SaabHengine.jpg/300px-S aabHengine.jpg), whereas the older B engines had a black cam cover (see: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/1974-SAAB99LE-engine.jp g/350px-1974-SAAB99LE-engine.jpg). If it says 16V on the cam cover (like: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/1993_Saab_900T_Converti ble_B202_engine.jpg/300px-1993_Saab_900T_Convertible_B202_engine.jpg), it is a newer engine. The normally aspirated fuel injection engine is the most simple. If you want to squirt the fuel into the intake snorkel then go ahead. I have seen installations where the intake runners (after the throttle) were drilled, tapped and had injectors inserted. This is a much better proposition for if you decided upon a turbocharged model. You can see the long intake runners in some of the pictures on Wiki. Although a B engine this picture (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/ thumb/8/8f/1974-SAAB99LE-engine.jpg/350px-1974-SAAB99LE-engine.jpg) shows the long intake runners and the fuel injectors bored into the head. For LPG installations (and just extra fuelling for people running very high boost), I have seen the intake runners drilled about 2 inches back from where the normal petrol injectors are. Is the 900 becoming a viable car for your needs? > Is the 900 becoming a viable car for your needs? The 900 looks nice to me if I can find one. On internet I see more 99 models and I don't even know the difference with the 900 models but I do like the solid impression the Saabs are given me. Still a little worried about the engines. But if it sounds and runs good I might buy one. Thanks a lot for all your information. Edmund > > Is the 900 becoming a viable car for your needs? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > sounds and runs good I might buy one. > Thanks a lot for all your information. For the period you are looking at (1979-1983), they will all be eight valve engines. Look at the back of the car - GL, GLE, GLS and EMS will all be carburetted. If it says "turbo" it is ... if there is a turbo under the bonnet (look next to the battery), it's a turbo. If it says 900i on the back, it's a normally aspirated car (no turbo) - I think that's the one you want. Do be aware that SAAB engines of this period will be dramatically improved with new spark plugs, leads, cap and rotor arm, perhaps a coil (all cheap enough) and replacing the rubber vacuum hose with silicon (again very cheap). Once replaced, set the timing and the mixture and you're done - happy motoring. >> Ah ... okay, I understand that. I wondered whether 1980-1983 was >> chosen for a specific model. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Edmund Please stop trolling now, ok? Richard. In article <b2d23f9c-be8f-406e-aa90-1c20f6baf340 @x69g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>, pjgh93@googlemail.com says... > I don't pretend to know much about LPG, but if all you > need to do is drill the intake runners and fit new injectors, set up > the timing to go bang at the right time, then the SAAB 900 8V engine > is about as simple as it gets. I know of many successful LPG > installations in Volvos and VWs from the early part of the 1980s and > their engines were very similar to SAAB's. A simple "ring burner" system would work ok on a non turbo car even a 16v injection, but can cause backfires if not setup properly and that will trash the AFM on a efi car. A direct injection system with injectors in the manifold won't have that problem, will be a lot more expensive to install, but it will be a lot more efficient. SignatureCarl Robson Audio stream: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com:8000/samtest Homepage: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com > What can I expect if I buy such a car and what will > be the best type if there is any choice. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Edmund Hi Edmund, find one that does not have ANY rust, and is well maintained. You can simply have the engine swapped for 1000 EURO if necessary, restoring a badly rusted car can easily cost thousands... Expect to pay anything from 1500 EURO for an ok one, and 2000 and up for a good one. Parts are really easy to find for the 900, for the 99 its getting a bit more difficult. Engine maintenance of the Saab is easy, especially the non-turbo versions. Try to find one with electronic ignition. LPG conversion is around 1100 EURO. Taxes are zero for over 25 year old cars in NL. LPG is 0,60 per liter / 98 gasoline is 1,55 per liter 10-12 km/liter on gasoline, 8-10 km/liter on LPG. Good luck, Richard. >> What can I expect if I buy such a car and what will >> be the best type if there is any choice. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Good luck, > Richard. For the record: Road tax for 900 gasoline is 40 EURO per month, road tax for 900 LPG is 95 EURO per month. R. > For the record: > Road tax for 900 gasoline is 40 EURO per month, > road tax for 900 LPG is 95 EURO per month. Why more for LPG ? Do LPG cars damage the infrastructure more ? ! Graham >> For the record: >> Road tax for 900 gasoline is 40 EURO per month, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Graham Its not “road tax” we don't have that. ( they do not even use a fraction from all those automotive tax billions for the roads ) It is possession tax if you have a car registered, which is obligated, you have to pay this tax. Because LPG is less expensive then petrol, our government is taxing away the advantage from people. In Netherland the government interested in money only, nothing else matters. Same is true for diesel cars. Edmund > >> For the record: > >> Road tax for 900 gasoline is 40 EURO per month, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > ( they do not even use a fraction from all > those automotive tax billions for the roads ) I would say the road tax in the UK is also largely notional but they still call it that. It seems to be becoming more of a politically correct tax, with small (engined) cars paying less than big ones. Even so, I pay 'only' about 300 Euros annually. > It is possession tax if you have a car registered, > which is obligated, you have to pay this tax. > Because LPG is less expensive then petrol, our > government is taxing away the advantage from > people. How silly ! > In Netherland the government interested > in money only, nothing else matters. > Same is true for diesel cars. Very short sighted behaviour. Graham >> >> For the record: >> >> Road tax for 900 gasoline is 40 EURO per month, [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > How silly ! Just that... its not true! Driving an LPG car is actually much cheaper. The tax is 1 EURO less perliter, and the "road-tax" on modern cars is about the same as gasoline. >> In Netherland the government interested >> in money only, nothing else matters. >> Same is true for diesel cars. > > Very short sighted behaviour. Its not. Money seems the only thing people are concerned about, so if we want to solve the problems then it has to go by the wallet :) Richard. >>> For the record: >>> Road tax for 900 gasoline is 40 EURO per month, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Edmund Edmund, Its not true that LPG is cheaper. Its just that it .... ... is less taxed! :) And for newer LPG cars (G3) the road-tax is about the same as for a gasoline car. But still... not many people switch to LPG. I dont know why. Because they dont like changes probably? Diesel is still the most polluting car-fuel. The VAT is still 19% next year. The state expenses for everything related to cars and traffic is enormous. Check your sources please. The Netherlands is one of the most densely "asphalted" countries on earth. Also one of the most polluted by car traffic. Also one with the most traffic jams. If the tax on cars and driving would be lower, most people would buy a second car or a even a third . Where I live there are is not enough parking space. The neighbourhood is new (6 years old), and they designed the number of parking spots as 1 for every household. Sounds reasonable to me. Problem is... many households have more than one car! Why? But they can afford it, thats for sure.. There is excellent public transport, and the train station is at 10 minutes. Or at 2 if you live at the other side of the neighbourhood. The Netherlands is one of those countries where people only complain about taxes and never want to look at the benefits they get from them. The Netherlands has what I call a "complain culture". Everyone is complaining about how bad the government / system is, but nobody wants or is able to change anything. Its like a passtime, a party talk subject. A bit like football or the tabloids. There are way too many cars in this country, everyone agrees, but nobody wants to give up their own. Now people start saying that it is a "right" to be able to park your car in your own street. Its so silly. Richard. >>>> For the record: >>>> Road tax for 900 gasoline is 40 EURO per month, [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Its not true that LPG is cheaper. Its just that it .... > ... is less taxed! :) That is right, I did only compare the prices we have to pay at the gas station. > And for newer LPG cars (G3) the road-tax is about the same as for a > gasoline car. Not exactly true, for a 1200 kg car it's 432 euro/year on petrol and 600 on LPG with a G3 installation. For heavier cars the figures are a lot worse, only for the one or two Ultra light cars it is the same as petrol. > But still... not many people switch to LPG. I don't know why. Because > they dont like changes probably? G3 installations have top build in by one of the approved stations and not to my surprise they are rather expensive. Even so I read LPG markt is growing so be prepared for a spectaculair rise in costs soon. The government has already announced a few tax raises for next year and the year after. > Diesel is still the most polluting car-fuel. That is not sure at all, it has the lowest CO2 emission per km for all cars. Note that the government for many years used the CO2 emission as an excuse to raise the taxes every time. > The VAT is still 19% next year. You are right again :-) it is 20 % in 2009! > The state expenses for everything related to cars and traffic is > enormous. Check your sources please. My sources are fine, automotive taxes are a great income for our government and they do not spend much of it on the infra structure. > The Netherlands is one of the most densely "asphalted" countries on > earth. Also one of the most polluted by car traffic. Also one with the > most traffic jams. That is misleading at least, we have about 17 or 18 million people crowded on this small place and the government is still giving child support and they are importing people! > If the tax on cars and driving would be lower, most people would buy a > second car or a even a third . that doesn't matter either, you can only drive one at the time. > Where I live there are is not enough parking space. The neighbourhood > is new (6 years old), and they designed the number of parking spots as > 1 for every household. Sounds reasonable to me. Problem is... many > households have more than one car! Why? Because the taxes are so excessive both man and wife have to work to be able to pay the bills? > But they can afford it, thats for sure.. There is excellent public > transport, and the train station is at 10 minutes. Or at 2 if you live > at the other side of the neighborhood. How do you calculate that, by driving to it by car :-)? I live 3 km from the station and it takes at least 20 minutes to come there by bus. > The Netherlands is one of those countries where people only complain > about taxes and never want to look at the benefits they get from them. > The Netherlands has what I call a "complain culture". Everyone is > complaining about how bad the government / system is, but nobody wants > or is able to change anything. You are absolute right about that, we complain and thats about it. We still accept every tax rise and nobody ever strikes or does anything to stop our government, so that is exactly why our government never stops taken a lager piece of the cake every year. > Its like a passtime, a party talk subject. A bit like football or the > tabloids. > > There are way too many cars in this country, everyone agrees, but > nobody wants to give up their own. Yeah how do you want to go to your work without one? Remember not even the students did fit in the trains, let alone all the working people. > Now people start saying that it is a "right" to be able to park your > car in your own street. That is not an unfair demand at all, the car drivers has paid for the roads parking places and all about 30 times now. Parking should be free in the whole country! > Its so silly. > > Richard. Edmund > The Netherlands is one of the most densely "asphalted" countries on > earth. Also one of the most polluted by car traffic. Also one with the > most traffic jams. I seriously doubt that. Try living in Soth East England. We can log-jam 12 lane motorways ! Graham >> The Netherlands is one of the most densely "asphalted" countries on >> earth. Also one of the most polluted by car traffic. Also one with [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Graham LOL! Cool! They should raise taxes.... ;-) Here the highway to Amsterdam is being widened, it will soon have 10 lanes. If it helps to solve traffic jams, it will make more people decide that its ok to take a job in Amsterdam centre and go there by... CAR :) And cause traffic jams again? The irony... I smile a lot . :) Richard. > >>> For the record: > >>> Road tax for 900 gasoline is 40 EURO per month, [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > But still... not many people switch to LPG. I dont know why. Because > they dont like changes probably? Initial investment. Scarcity of filling stations. A slight performance hit. Higher engine temperatures. Reduction of boot space. Fear of gas leaks which might lead poisoning or explosions. However, you can get government grant (UK) for converting a new car. > Diesel is still the most polluting car-fuel. Agreed. The soot gets in everywhere. > > > Eeyore wrote: > > >> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > However, you can get government grant (UK) for converting a new car. Begs the question WHY ! > > Diesel is still the most polluting car-fuel. > > Agreed. The soot gets in everywhere. I thought the latest EU diesel legislation fixed that ? Soot results from over-fuelling only AIUI and that's associated with primitive mechanical fuel injection systems. Electronic injection as per gasoline vehicles should eliminate that. WHY it took so long to get electronic fuel control into diesels is a question you might well ask. Graham > > > > Eeyore wrote: > > > >> [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > injection systems. Electronic injection as per gasoline vehicles should > eliminate that. Probably most of it comes from lorries and busses.. I live not far from a motorway. The soot spreads out by stealth; you don't really notice it until you wipe the walls by a damp cloth. > WHY it took so long to get electronic fuel control into diesels is a question > you might well ask. Maybe because one of the original attractions of the diesel engine was that it didn't need an electric system to run. The old distributor was always a weak point in petrol engines. > However, you can get government grant (UK) for converting a new car. Not any more you can't. The EU declared it illegal. SignatureCarl Robson Audio stream: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com:8000/samtest Homepage: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com > > However, you can get government grant (UK) for converting a new car. > > > Not any more you can't. The EU declared it illegal. I don't mind. Why should my Tax money support someone who can afford a new car? to receive." 84Office of the Holy Virgin. "Make me worthy." [85]Matthew, 7:7, "Ask and it shall be given you." 86Is. 45:15. [87]John 8:30-33. "Many believed on him. Then Jesus said: 'If ye continue... then ye are my disciples indeed, and the truth shall make you free.' They answered him: 'We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man.'" 88Rev. 22:11. "He that is righteous, let him be righteous still." [89]Circumcidentes cor. Rom. 2. "Circumcision is that of the heart." 901 Cor. 15:33. "Evil communications corrupt good manners." 91"What they have found by their curiosity, they have lost by their pride." Quod curiositate invenerunt, superbia perdiderunt. St. Augustine, Sermon cxli. 921 Cor. 1:21. "Which... by wisdom knew not... it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." 93St. Bernard, Sermones in Cantica Canticorum, lxxxiv. "The better one is, the worse one becomes, if one attributes the cause of this goodness to one's self." [94]Ibid. "Meriting blows more than kisses, I fear not, because I love." 95John 11:33. Et turbarit seipsum. "And he troubled himself." 96Matt. 26:46. "Let us be going." [97]Matt. 18:2. "Jesus went forth." 98Gen. 3:5. "Ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." [99]John 20:17. "Touch me not." 100Allusion to John 6:56; 1:47; 8:36; 6:32. "True disciple; an Israelite indeed; free indeed; true bread." 101In discipulis meis. Isaiah 8:16. "Seal the law among my disciples." [102]Is. 45:15. 1031 Cor. 1:17. "Lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect." 104"Rend your heart." 105Ps. 9:14. "Have mercy." I had a 90 until recently (I gave it away due to rising insurance cost), but it was made in 1985. As far as I know, this is the only year they made it. Contary to the 99 series it supports unleaded petrol and LPG. I've driven it over 20 years, even on LPG. At 280k km same engine, same gear box. Last year I replaced the carburetor. This year clutch and brake pads. That's all. If you can find one with a moderate mileage, grab it! joris > What can I expect if I buy such a car and what will > be the best type if there is any choice. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Edmund > What can I expect if I buy such a car and what will > be the best type if there is any choice. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Edmund Sorry that this is unrelated to your enquiry Edmund. OK, some silly bugger has been crossposting this to a spanking newsgroup, spoofing as me, but with strange random garbage as the message. Granted, I'm not bothered about being associated with the other group, but I don't want to be considered as a crossposting troll when I've never even visited. >Sorry that this is unrelated to your enquiry Edmund. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >but I don't want to be considered as a crossposting troll when I've >never even visited. He posted to all sorts of groups with forged names and addresses from current posters in those groups. Apparently he thinks people will read his deranged posts if they have ID's of current posters. On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 03:59:31 -0800, ian wrote: > Granted, I'm not bothered about being associated with the other group, > but I don't want to be considered as a crossposting troll when I've > never even visited. I understand, he posted under my name too. Edmund
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