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Car Forum / Saab Cars / January 2008Used Saab 9-3 Convertible
Hi, I am looking at a couple Saab 9-3 Convertible SE vehicles, between the years 2002 and 2003. I test drove one today and the engine light was on, and it seemed as though the gas gauge was malfunctioning. Additionally, the car seemed to hesitate when the accelerator was pressed down. I am not used to driving a Saab, and am not sure how it should drive, but it didn't seem quite right. I guess I would just like to know how these vehicles drive, as well as any problems I should be looking for. Are there any common malfunctions or problems with these vehicles? I own a Toyota FJ Cruiser as my main car, and have an older Porsche as a summer car (which the Saab will replace). As many of you probably know, Porsche is not the epitome of reliability. I want something I do not have to worry about so much, and something that is a little bit less expensive to fix. So what are the best qualities of the 9-3? I was also looking at a Z3 and an SLK230, but I think I really like the Saab more. Thank you for your help. >Hi, >I am looking at a couple Saab 9-3 Convertible SE vehicles, between the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I am not used to driving a Saab, and am not sure how it >should drive, but it didn't seem quite right. Engine light is indicative of an emissions component failure. That's not horrible since most of those items are minor, but it's not good. I'd find another car. Also, Saab engines don't suffer from any flat spots. There is a delay before the turbo kicks in, then you start to fly, but you should get normal acceleration until it does. Drive another couple to compare. >I guess I would just >like to know how these vehicles drive, as well as any problems I >should be looking for. They drive well. Soft, smooth, comfortable with good handling. Many of use put in a set of Koni adjustables for a much improved ride and handling. Some also install a steering rack brace kit which cuts way down on tramlining under high boost (something that feels like torque steer, but isn't). If you are coming from a Porsche, you might want to do both. Keep in mind that it's FWD, so you have to relearn a bit compared to driving the Porsche RWD. Great in the Winter with All Seasons - pull out stuck SUV's with snow tires. Off the top of my head, Koni's are about $550 and the brace about $200. >Are there any common malfunctions or problems >with these vehicles? There are a couple of wear items like an idler pulley ($50) that needs 50K replacement - 10 minute DIY job. There was a potential sludge issue with a motor redesign on some engines in those years. I don't know whether those specific motors were affected as I own an earlier unaffected motor but check out the details before purchase. The electronic ignition/spark module, known as DIC, typically expires around 70K miles. Since they can fail without warning in some cases, most of us who are knowledgable carry a spare ($230 new or Ebay $50) just as insurance. It's a 10 minute replacement job with a hand torx driver that's in the trunk that anyone can do. Look for maint records with regular synthetic oil changes (best for the turbo itself). For a 2002/3 you should find that the only things done were oil, brakes (maybe), and tires. >I own a Toyota FJ Cruiser as my main car, and >have an older Porsche as a summer car (which the Saab will replace). >As many of you probably know, Porsche is not the epitome of >reliability. Didn't but I will take your word for it. >I want something I do not have to worry about so much, >and something that is a little bit less expensive to fix. Saabs will cost more than the Toyota for some parts, less than the Porsche to repair. Like a Porsche, it's best to find an independent mechanic to work on it instead of a dealer - unless you do your own work. >So what are >the best qualities of the 9-3? It will be much smoother and comfortable than any Toyota. The turbo give you lots of whoosh and it's a blast. It does take a little learning to pull out in traffic quickly and then avoid going too fast. You will notice the "pull out" issue when test driving. We can teach you :-) Lots of nice gadgets if you like bells an whistles - Saab engineers like to automate and put in little extras. You can seat 4, although the rear two can't be large people. The trunk is fairly roomy with the top up - and with it down, you can put some really large items in the rear seat. If your Porsche isn't a convertible, you will love having one. Saabs 'vert tops are very well insulated and finished and you can drive it year round and it's as warm or warmer than any sedan. >I was also looking at a Z3 and an >SLK230, but I think I really like the Saab more. Thank you for your >help. Z3 and SLK will cost you more cash. The Z3 does not have the best of reputations for reliability - at least according to my friend who owns one... he's been very disappointed. Other than that I can't comment on the others. > It will be much smoother and comfortable than any Toyota. The turbo > give you lots of whoosh and it's a blast. It does take a little > learning to pull out in traffic quickly and then avoid going too fast. > You will notice the "pull out" issue when test driving. We can teach > you :-) What is the "pull-out" issue? This may be what I experienced that I thought may have been a problem. Thanks. >> It will be much smoother and comfortable than any Toyota. The turbo >> give you lots of whoosh and it's a blast. It does take a little [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >What is the "pull-out" issue? This may be what I experienced that I >thought may have been a problem. Thanks. My experience is that recent Saab's move out slowly. After all, before boost, you have a relatively small, low compression 2 liter motor, trying to push a car that weighs over 3000 lbs. That's not exactly a recipe for speed. The solution is just a bit of technique to make sure it's a turbo charged 2 liter motor with plenty of pull when you move out. Give the accelerator a rev a half second before you plan to move out so that the RPM's are up a bit and the turbo is spinning. Not a lot, and I've never measured, but I probably poke it up to 2500, maybe a little more. Let it fall for a moment (no sense wearing your clutch), but a split second later pull away moderately aggressively. The turbo will be spinning and you will get boost almost instantly and you move out fast. The tricky part is that you now have boost at a low speed, pulling into traffic, with a lot of throttle. Unless you want to accelerate like you are trying to catch someone on the Autobahn, you need to back off the throttle quickly. So, just about the time you get moving, back off the throttle. The whole process from the initial rev above to backing off the throttle in traffic is probably 2 seconds. The other issue is that if you are pulling across traffic in a turn while doing this, you can spin the inside tire. That wears the tire a little and if you don't back off you fast will not have a lot of control over steering direction. So be careful. On a slick or wet road you can do a little front end fish tail. Installing an upgraded rear sway bar will cut that quite a bit. Saab builds in a "don't boost quickly in low gears so no one get's surprised" program in the factory computer but people who have upgraded their ECU or added an MBC will definitely feel this problem more often. > Saab builds in a "don't boost quickly in low gears so no one get's surprised" program in the factory computer ... Now that's interesting. I haven't heard that before. My '02 9-5 Aero is an absolute *dog* off the line -- I have accidentally chirped the tires in a 9-3 turbo (and even in a rental Nissan Sentra!!) because I'm so used to punching it hard to get the 9-5 moving. Once you shift into 2nd/3rd it doesn't have this "no power" issue, but even then there is a HUGE turbo lag, 1.5-1.7 sec or more. This happens after each shift and I've never come up with a way to keep the turbo spinning between shifts. Could this "don't boost quickly in low gears" program be the cause? Though it may be a moot point, as it looks like new ECUs run $1000-1200, and I'm not eager to dump that much into an experiment. It looks like most aftermarket ECUs are mostly aimed at increasing horsepower, and I *don't* need that. Once the turbo finally spins up there is PLENTY of horsepower. It's just the "starting out in 1st gear" and "long lag after hitting the gas or shifting" that are annoying. Gary >> Saab builds in a "don't boost quickly in low gears so no one get's >surprised" program in the factory computer ... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >a 9-3 turbo (and even in a rental Nissan Sentra!!) because I'm so used to >punching it hard to get the 9-5 moving. The Saab programming does not cause the initial problem - no boost at idle. That's a "feature" :-) of a small turbo motor. The programming does restrict boost in 1st & 2nd gears. The idea behind this it to prevent serious boost from build in the low gears where you can spin the tires and/or have more trouble controlling it. it's supposed to make the Saab drive more like a normally aspirated engine with no turbo surge. In higher gears, that isn't an issue and there's no serious governing of the boost above 2nd gear aside from an overall limit on max boost. >Once you shift into 2nd/3rd it doesn't have this "no power" issue, but even >then there is a HUGE turbo lag, 1.5-1.7 sec or more. This happens after [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >It's just the "starting out in 1st gear" and "long lag after hitting the >gas or shifting" that are annoying. You should understand first that your Saab engine is capable of producing much more HP. The turbo produces boost on a relatively fixed schedule depending on how fast it's spinning. The amount of boost that gets to the engine is determined by the opening or closing of the waste gate (when open, it dumps excess boost). The programming of the ECU controls the waste gate, as well as the ignition timing of the engine and fuel delivery. Your Saab can create more HP, or more HP faster, simply by leaving/keeping the waste gate closed. Saab has the waste gate programmed to be very open very quickly in low gears to avoid a fast buildup of boost. ECU upgrades typically provide more HP by letting the boost build higher before dumping it (by controlling the waste gate). But, they also provide more boost *faster*, by keeping the gate closed initially until boost builds. The Saab factory program opens the gate quickly, even at low boost, to keep drivability more the way most buyers expect it. Some of us don't need that mothering :-) Note that Saab itself sells ECU upgrades now. Factory boost is about 11psi, I believe the Saab upgrades and the stage 1 aftermarket upgrades hit about 14psi. ECU's can reprogram that upper limit though. People who do heavy mods head higher to 18-22psi but have to do other mods to increase airflow through the engine like larger down pipes. Around that you start to need larger injectors to supply more fuel - the turbo really gives us all the air we need... but we run short of fuel. There is also the MBC or Manual Boost Controller. This is a mechanical device which bypasses the ECU's control of the waste gate. It does the same thing a reprogrammed ECU does, but mechanically. It's cruder, since the ECU can be programmed to specific boost and timing curves... the MBC just creates a mechanical arrangement whereby the gate stays closed until a max boost setting is hit. The MBC also prevents the engine from reducing boost if the engine knocks (although the stock ECU will still control timing as best it can if it detects knock). The MBC needs to be detuned slightly to avoid problems with seasonal temperature changes or you need to manually retune it a little when the seasons change (Fall to Winter, Winter to Spring) The MBC is not ideal, but it costs about $35-$50 vs. $500-$800 for an aftermarket ECU and slightly more for a factory-aftermarket upgraded ECU. Back to your specific question: would an ECU (or MBC) upgrade help with the lag? The general answer is "yes", because it will give you more boost, more quickly. At the same time, it will also increase the upper end boost. Will it be enough of a change to be worth the money to you? Most people think so, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder... so it is a little risk. You could try an MBC if you are just a little mechanically inclined and if you like the effect, and want a more proper solution, jump into an ECU upgrade. . smooth and gradual, no wheel spin. But, they also , or the same boost for a longer time before they open the waste gate and vent it. > The Saab programming does not cause the initial problem - no boost at > idle. That's a "feature" :-) of a small turbo motor. Then why doesn't the 9-3 -- with a *smaller* turbo motor -- suffer from the same problem? As I said, I accidentally spun the tires when test- driving a 9-3 because it had SO MUCH more power off the line than my Aero. It is a slightly lighter car, but... It took me quite a while to learn how to drive the 9-5 without nearly killing it when starting out in 1st. I've never had that problem in ANY other car of any size, including 3 previous turbo Saabs. > You should understand first that your Saab engine is capable of > producing much more HP. The turbo produces boost on a relatively fixed > schedule depending on how fast it's spinning. The amount of boost that > gets to the engine is determined by the opening or closing of the > waste gate (when open, it dumps excess boost). "Much more HP" is not what I'm worried about. Once the turbo finally spins up, there is MORE than enough power. It's the 1.7sec or so that I have to wait *before* the turbo spins up that bothers me. This is true whether I'm cruising and punch it, or when I'm shifting from 1st to 2nd, 2nd to 3rd, less when shifting 3-4 or 4-5. The reaction I get when trying to accelerate hard from a stop is: * Ughhhh, getting it started is hard, no torque at first * ~1.7sec later, it slams me back into the seat. The resulting surge in speed takes me to the "time to shift" point almost instantly, so I spend VERY little time enjoying the full power the beastie is capable of. * Shift into 2nd, and the acceleration drops from "slam into the seat" to "very little, what happened to my torque??" It doesn't quite jerk you forward against the seat belt, but it almost feels like it. (Is this because the waste gate opens when I shift, instantly dumping all boost and spooling down the turbo?) * ~1.7sec later, the acceleration ramps up and pushes me hard into the seat, and once again almost instantly it's time to shift. * Shift into 3rd, the drop in power isn't as bad as the 1st-2nd transition but it's still significant. ~1.7sec later, etc etc. In nearly 90k miles of driving this car, I have not found any way to avoid this up-and-down power response when accelerating aggressively. I simply cannot acclerate hard and smoothly. As a result I very seldom acclerate hard. If I keep the boost gauge out of the yellow, the yo-yo torque response is not nearly as bad. Of course, I'm only getting about 1/4 of the power and torque the car is capable of. It's also annoying that I can't get quick response at speed. Even if I'm cruising at 3000rpm, I get no significant torque for ~1.7sec after hitting the gas. BTW back in 2003 I tried a Stratmosphere Hyperboost diverter valve, which I think is a waste gate? I saw no change whatsoever and returned it. > ECU upgrades typically provide more HP by letting the boost build > higher before dumping it (by controlling the waste gate). But, they > also provide more boost *faster*, by keeping the gate closed initially > until boost builds. The Saab factory program opens the gate quickly, > even at low boost, to keep drivability more the way most buyers expect > it. Hmmm. > There is also the MBC or Manual Boost Controller. Now that sounds very interesting. Do you mean something like http://smartperformance.net/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=34 ? For only $25 that would be well worth trying. Do you have a particular one you'd recommend, or is that SmartPerformance one OK? > Back to your specific question: would an ECU (or MBC) upgrade help > with the lag? The general answer is "yes", because it will give you > more boost, more quickly. That's what I want. I'll have to give the MBC a try. Many thanks for the ****EXCELLENT**** explanation and suggestions!!! Wish I'd known this when I started whining about it back in 2003.... Gary >Now that sounds very interesting. Do you mean something like >http://smartperformance.net/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=34 ? >For only $25 that would be well worth trying. Do you have a particular >one you'd recommend, or is that SmartPerformance one OK? If you have a T7 engine (black DI), that looks like a good choice. It's also a good price. >> Back to your specific question: would an ECU (or MBC) upgrade help >> with the lag? The general answer is "yes", because it will give you [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Many thanks for the ****EXCELLENT**** explanation and suggestions!!! >Wish I'd known this when I started whining about it back in 2003.... I think you might have another issue as it sounds like your lag/boost is somewhat exaggerated on both ends. But, for $25, give it a shot. See what it does. While you are in there, check all the small vacuum hoses - replace them if they are not recent. You can do them all with 10' of hose. Also make sure all you turbo hoses are well clamped, throttle body is clean, etc. Replace the plugs with a fresh set of NGK's and change the air filter if needed. > If you have a T7 engine (black DI), that looks like a good choice. > It's also a good price. I believe all 9-5's were T7's. > I think you might have another issue as it sounds like your lag/boost > is somewhat exaggerated on both ends. But, for $25, give it a shot. > See what it does. Worth a try! It's cheap and it looks to be a dead-simple procedure. > While you are in there, check all the small vacuum hoses - Meaning the hoses going into the BPC? > Also make sure all you turbo hoses are well clamped, throttle body is > clean, etc. FWIW the throttle body was replaced about 2 years ago, so it should be relatively clean... Gary >> While you are in there, check all the small vacuum hoses - > >Meaning the hoses going into the BPC? Check those for cracks... but I was thinking of the smaller 1/8" ID (1/4" OD) ones on top of the engine. The turbo control hoses seem to be of a high quality rubber and last a long time for most of us but the small vacuum (control) hoses seem to dry out from the heat and crack. The longest one that goes to the blow off valve (or whatever Saab calls it... it's not exactly a blow off valve) is known for cracking. If you buy 10' of hose you can redo them all (<$10) > > It will be much smoother and comfortable than any Toyota. The turbo > > give you lots of whoosh and it's a blast. It does take a little [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > What is the "pull-out" issue? This may be what I experienced that I > thought may have been a problem. Thanks. Saabs are also known for there excellent safety, and crash test ratings. You might even consider sampling a later model sport sedan convertible(04-). The chassis is much tighter, the soft top itself has fantastic improvements. You don't even feel as though your driving a convertible, handles like a sedan. >>> It will be much smoother and comfortable than any Toyota. The turbo >>> give you lots of whoosh and it's a blast. It does take a little [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > fantastic improvements. You don't even feel as though your driving a > convertible, handles like a sedan. The crash test rating for Saab is maybe not always the best but the in statistics from real accidents Saab has always turned out to have the best rating. However in the latest statistics from 117000 accidents during 1995 to 2007 Toyota Avensis reached the top position followed by Saab 9^5 , 9^3 and Mitsubishi Galant, all were 30% better than the average car. SUVs in general get a low safety rating, mainly because they tend to roll over quite frequently after real accidents. In http://www.folksam.se/polopoly_fs/1.11226!/sakrabilar2005.pdf you will find the report from 2005, for 2007 there is no report in English AFAIK.  Signatureth
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