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Car Forum / Saab Cars / February 2008

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Oh ... FFS!!! Broken 8V Injector Hose

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PJGH - 23 Feb 2008 13:29 GMT
There is was refitting my AIC valve and someone startled me by yelling
"EXCUSE ME" ... I jumped and knocked the injector hose. I heard a
distinct crack and then petrol started swelling out :(
Bloomin' fuming ...

Can anyone help me? I need an injector hose for a 1989 C900 8V turbo -
the one I need is for the injector closest to the distributor.
Does anyone have a spare I could borrow, while I sorted out a
replacement? At a push (or rather, preferably), a flexible hose from
an early VW/Audi would do. Would one from a 99 work?

Anyone? I can pick up tonight, or tomorrow from somewhere reasonably
close.
PJGH - 24 Feb 2008 14:43 GMT
> There is was refitting my AIC valve and someone startled me by yelling
> "EXCUSE ME" ... I jumped and knocked the injector hose. I heard a
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Anyone? I can pick up tonight, or tomorrow from somewhere reasonably
> close.

Okay ... I've found a chap who can make me up aftermarket PTFE lined
stainless overbraid hoses, but the smallest he can do is "quarter
bore" (which I gather is 1/4 inch).
In his opinion, it shouldn't matter but I can't help thinking the
microbore 6x2mm was used by SAAB for a reason.

Who knows for certain?
Has anyone commissioned their own aftermarket hoses? What bore did you
use?
still just me - 24 Feb 2008 18:10 GMT
>Okay ... I've found a chap who can make me up aftermarket PTFE lined
>stainless overbraid hoses, but the smallest he can do is "quarter
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Has anyone commissioned their own aftermarket hoses? What bore did you
>use?

I don't know for certain, but in a high pressure system like FI, the
diameter of the hose is likely not a limiting factor. The valve is
doing all the fuel metering/limitation.

I think it would be all right to run with it, if you can get it tight
enough on the fittings not to spray gas. Then you can take a little
time to look for proper replacements.
PJGH - 24 Feb 2008 21:12 GMT
> >Okay ... I've found a chap who can make me up aftermarket PTFE lined
> >stainless overbraid hoses, but the smallest he can do is "quarter
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> enough on the fittings not to spray gas. Then you can take a little
> time to look for proper replacements.

Ta for that - I'm sure on of our local SAAB Specialists will have a
suitable replacement that I can pick up tomorrow.
I want to replace the lot with good aftermarket material and have an
end to snapping these damn things.

The problem with the old Bosch CIS/K-Jet system is that the injectors
are manual - they are opened (continuously) by the pressure of the
fuel, not fired by ECU. To that end, the wider the bore, the lesser
the pressure for the same delivery of fuel? Or does the pressure
increase when the bore drops to the aperture of the injector opening
and crack the injector open. That's my dilema. I have found loads of
posts on forum boards where people have commissioned aftermarket hoses
for the CIS system, but they are very light on the technical detail.

I know years ago, I had this discussion with Grunff (now there's a
name from the past, alt.autos.saab-wise) and he commissioned a set
from a local hydraulic specialist. The guy I talked to today could not
drop down to microbore - his swaging machine would not go that small.
I've got a couple of leads to follow up tomorrow (on foot).
Bill Bradley - 24 Feb 2008 21:25 GMT
> The problem with the old Bosch CIS/K-Jet system is that the injectors
> are manual - they are opened (continuously) by the pressure of the
> fuel, not fired by ECU. To that end, the wider the bore, the lesser
> the pressure for the same delivery of fuel? Or does the pressure
> increase when the bore drops to the aperture of the injector opening
> and crack the injector open. That's my dilema.

    Pressure is set by the smallest point, not the largest, and on the CIS
neither sets the pressure: the injectors are spring-loaded, not just
open jets, and it's the opening pressure that matters.

    Bill
still just me - 24 Feb 2008 23:49 GMT
>The problem with the old Bosch CIS/K-Jet system is that the injectors
>are manual - they are opened (continuously) by the pressure of the
>fuel, not fired by ECU.

I might take back what I said then. You'd have to get into a detailed
discussion of the engineering to figure it out and I don't understand
the manual system well enough to predict it. In general, pressure in a
smaller hose will be higher, but volume lower - assuming the pump can
maximize the flow to the hose in all conditions. If there is some sort
of round robin going in where it applies a certain amount of fuel and
expects opening, you'd be lowering the pressure point with a large
hose. If, on the other hand, the pump supplies much more pressure than
needed, it would reach the same pressure anyway.

Again, I lack the knowledge of that injection system to add anything
but basic information at this point...
MH - 25 Feb 2008 21:19 GMT
> I don't know for certain, but in a high pressure system like FI, the
> diameter of the hose is likely not a limiting factor. The valve is
> doing all the fuel metering/limitation.

The size of the hose is not very important, but since the velocity of the fuel
flow in a larger hose is smaller, and because of Bernoulli's principle, there
will be less pressure loss with the same volumetric flow rate. Consequently,
there will be a slightly higher pressure at the injector, causing it to inject
slighty more fuel. To avoid this all hoses should be the same length and same
diameter.

Signature

MH

PJGH - 26 Feb 2008 11:18 GMT
> > I don't know for certain, but in a high pressure system like FI, the
> > diameter of the hose is likely not a limiting factor. The valve is
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> slighty more fuel. To avoid this all hoses should be the same length and same
> diameter.

That's superb - thanks for that. I did think the pressure would
increase at the injector, but wondered if the overall pressure would
drop - I'm no Physics guy ... more Humanities. As it happens,
Goodridge are going to make me up a set in 2mm and all the same length
(the 75cm length) as per the longest of the standard SAAB fuel lines.
 
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