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Car Forum / Saab Cars / May 2008Why is the supply of E85 fuel so tightly controlled?
Last night I met up with the person who has the very first 2008-built MY08 Saab 9-3 BioPower car sold in Australia. That car has the capability to run on ethanol blend fuels up to 85 percent ethanol (aka E85), however I was very amazed when he was telling about how E85 can't be purchased from the small number of outlets that stock it around Australia without 'registering' on a federal government database, and service stations that do have it will deliberately lie when you ask them about it if your vehicle is not registered in this database! The price of E85 at the outlet he buys from in Forrestville (Sydney) is A$1.05 per litre at present (I guess it does vary a little over time). The only reason I could think of for why it's being so tightly regulated is that there are exclusive agreements in place with Manildra Corp for supply of the ethanol going into the fuel mixture, and that the government has basically removed it's excise (which accounts for a large degree of the much lower price) as a 'sweetener' to big business and government departments to kick-start the interest in high-concentration ethanol blend fuels in Oz. Does anyone know any more about this? Smacks immediately of an Australian federal government 'approved' cartel arrangement with Manildra Corp! That aside, the car is great to drive and compared to the shite that comes out of local manufacturers, it's much nicer. For $50k, I'd much rather have one of those than a Falcodore or Toyosan... Especially since they can run on fuel costing 1/3 less than normal petrol (which currently costs on average about A$1.40 to A$1.60 per litre for 'regular' unleaded here in Sydney)! Craig.  SignatureCraig's Saab C900 Page at | Craig's Classic Saab Workshop - Sydney .au http://lios.apana.org.au/~c900 | http://www.classicsaab.net and other URL's Email: c900@lios.apana.org.au | For Saab 99/C900/9000 Enthusiasts World-Wide! Alternate: saabonaut@gmail.com | Web-forums, galleries, library, links, etc. > Does anyone know any more about this? Maybe something to do with containing rising food costs? http://tinyurl.com/27lmsb Then again maybe a huge government conspiracy to stamp bar codes on our foreheads and control us all from laptops running Windows 3.1? (This one for the conspiracy freaks out there (like the original poster)). >> Does anyone know any more about this? >Maybe something to do with containing rising food costs? >http://tinyurl.com/27lmsb >Then again maybe a huge government conspiracy to stamp bar codes on our >foreheads and control us all from laptops running Windows 3.1? >(This one for the conspiracy freaks out there (like the original >poster)). I think most people would view the situation with fluctuating fuel pricing in Australia to be a conspiracy, so the OP isn't alone in these concerns. SignatureSheik Yerbhouti - the popular ambassador to Australia of the Arab Royal States Anonymous I welcome you loving emails. Come and view my free image galleries at: http://www.southwestslutbags.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=2941 http://www.technotranceravesex.net/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=20555 >>> Does anyone know any more about this? > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I think most people would view the situation with fluctuating fuel pricing > in Australia to be a conspiracy, so the OP isn't alone in these concerns. Dunno, but I fully support the large scale roll out of E85 across petrol stations in Australia. Ethanol actually has lower energy per litre then does petrol, however it's massive octane rating 104 for E85 means that it works great guns in turbocharged and supercharged motors and you can get significantly more power then you ever could with petrol. > Last night I met up with the person who has the very first 2008-built MY08 > Saab 9-3 BioPower car sold in Australia. That car has the capability to run [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > deliberately lie when you ask them about it if your vehicle is not > registered in this database! Perhaps you can provide some evidence of this ? Graham >> Last night I met up with the person who has the very first 2008-built MY08 >> Saab 9-3 BioPower car sold in Australia. That car has the capability to run [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> deliberately lie when you ask them about it if your vehicle is not >> registered in this database! >Perhaps you can provide some evidence of this ? Of the 'database'? The owner of the bio-power 9-3 had a phone call directly from someone who's a techincal expert from Brazil brought to Australia by Manildra to help set up the process of producing E85 fuel. He arranged with the person who owns the car in question to register them on the database and now he can legally buy E85 from any Australian outlet that stocks it. The guy from Brazil is living somewhere close to where the owner of the bio-power 9-3 lives on the northern beaches area. Seeing as it's the very first 08-buily my08 bio-power 9-3 to be sold in Australia, it's currently a unique vehicle! I didn't know E85 was even available in Australia yet, but clearly it is. Why it's not legal to buy without 'approval' is still a mystery. I believe it's due to the excise issue. I bet once more manufacturers start making cars that run on high-proportional ethanol fuels things will change (and the price of ethanol fuel blends will rise). Craig. SignatureCraig's Saab C900 Page at | Craig's Classic Saab Workshop - Sydney .au http://lios.apana.org.au/~c900 | http://www.classicsaab.net and other URL's Email: c900@lios.apana.org.au | For Saab 99/C900/9000 Enthusiasts World-Wide! Alternate: saabonaut@gmail.com | Web-forums, galleries, library, links, etc. > >> Last night I met up with the person who has the very first 2008-built MY08 > >> Saab 9-3 BioPower car sold in Australia. That car has the capability to run [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Craig. Probably because E85 will toasr any engine not made to run on it. Al SignatureLike Noddy, as I travel through life, it's not the personal attacks I'm concerned about, it's being recognised wearing lippy and a dress. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html > Probably because E85 will toasr any engine not made to run on it. toasr tost toste toast Al SignatureI don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html >Probably because E85 will toasr any engine not made to run on it. That's probably true with just about all existing vehicles, but it's not really a sensible reason to make it 'illegal' to buy without being 'registered' with the Federal government. 8-) Playing devil's advocate for a moment... If there were no special deals/arrangements in place, there would be no reason to restrict it's sale. If the 'offset' for the excise doesn't constitute a 'special arrangement', then I wonder what does. If someone was silly enough to put it in an vehicle not designed to run on it, that would be in the same league as trying to run a petrol engine on diesel, or vice-versa. Clearly there is some sort of liability protection going on or there'd be no reason to use a 'prohibition order' style of control mechanism to regulate end-user supply. Craig. SignatureCraig's Saab C900 Page at | Craig's Classic Saab Workshop - Sydney .au http://lios.apana.org.au/~c900 | http://www.classicsaab.net and other URL's Email: c900@lios.apana.org.au | For Saab 99/C900/9000 Enthusiasts World-Wide! Alternate: saabonaut@gmail.com | Web-forums, galleries, library, links, etc. > Probably because E85 will toasr any engine not made to run on it. I doubt it. It won't cause pre-ignition because it is a higher octane. It may run lean if the engine sensors/ecu don't have a wide enough range of adaption, but it should still run even if the ecu goes to limphome mode. Older carb cars would have less issues as long as there is enough range on the mixture adjustments/jetting. Only issue might be if the ethanol reacts with any existing metals or plastics/rubbers in the fuel system. It is still a spark combustion fuel. SignatureCarl Robson Audio stream: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com:8000/samtest Homepage: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com > > Probably because E85 will toasr any engine not made to run on it. > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > plastics/rubbers in the fuel system. It is still a spark combustion > fuel. Regarding running ethanol, I simply don't think burnt valves, holed pistons or cracked heads would improve performance or emissions. Not as bad as methanol though. You MUST make changes to timing and jetting to run alcohol fuels and you will use far more alcohol than petrol for the same power output. The ideal is to run alcohol fuels on the rich side to avoid problems. With methanol it's approximately twice the fuel you would use on straight petrol. You can't just dump these fuels into an engine with stock settings and expect the engine to last. Al SignatureLike Noddy, as I travel through life, it's not the personal attacks I'm concerned about, it's being recognised wearing lippy and a dress. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html > Regarding running ethanol, I simply don't think burnt valves, holed > pistons or cracked heads would improve performance or emissions. Not as [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > use on straight petrol. You can't just dump these fuels into an engine > with stock settings and expect the engine to last. I've actually been looking into this a little since joining this discussion. I plan, sometime in the near future to tune the Trionic 5 ecu (yes it is T5.2 1993 ecu but it is still possible) with T5suite. http://members.home.nl/t5suite/ And in the documentation, there is mention of E85, and tunning the injector cycle and ignition timing/advance to run E85 through a mechanically stock T5, and possibly even T7 car. On the subject of burned valves etc, unlikley to happen if you do add sufficient extra fuel which is what I said regarding carb jetting and adaption ranges. I said don't let it run lean. A standard spark ignition engine, with sufficient fueling is all you need. Just look at LPG/Propane systems. Propane is far lower than petrol in calorific value. It doesn't even need to be accuratley measures, just open the tap, pour it in, fire the spark, drive. No problems. Again, get it too lean and it will break the engine. A simple gas tester can sort that out. SignatureCarl Robson Audio stream: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com:8000/samtest Homepage: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com > > Regarding running ethanol, I simply don't think burnt valves, holed > > pistons or cracked heads would improve performance or emissions. Not as [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > lean and it will break the engine. A simple gas tester can sort that > out. I've run methanol in air cooled engines. It's rather more complicated than it first appears. With limited knowledge.. Good luck. Al SignatureLike Noddy, as I travel through life, it's not the personal attacks I'm concerned about, it's being recognised wearing lippy and a dress. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html > I've run methanol in air cooled engines. It's rather more complicated > than it first appears. With limited knowledge.. Good luck. Methanol and Ethanol are different animals though. Especially with regard to fuel system fittings. And air cooled engines again, trickier because there is no mechanical way of regulating temp other then airflow and constantly cycling engine oil. At least with a liquid cooled engine it is possible to open or close the flow of coolant in addition to air flowing past and oil circulating. SignatureCarl Robson Audio stream: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com:8000/samtest Homepage: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com >> > Probably because E85 will toasr any engine not made to run on it. >> > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Al I remember helping a friend set his Honda CR 250 to run on Methanol years ago, the common consensus was to think of the biggest jet size you think it needed then double it :-) It ran really well and we didn't care that he had the fastest chook chaser amongst us, it was always a pleasure to follow in his exhaust smoke ;-) Signature"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color." Don Hirschberg > >> > Probably because E85 will toasr any engine not made to run on it. > >> > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > It ran really well and we didn't care that he had the fastest chook chaser > amongst us, it was always a pleasure to follow in his exhaust smoke ;-) Aldehydes cause insanity apparently... so that's what happened to you. Think fuel flow in *area* of jets. Don't forget the needle and seat restriction playing a part in the setup. If you have a whopping main jet it could drain the bowl and you will run lean at high rpm.. nasty. Oh well you can't fall out of the sky. AFAIK they won't allow even E10 in light aircraft. Al SignatureI don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html >> >> > Probably because E85 will toasr any engine not made to run on it. >> >> > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Al That could be it then :-) remembering that this was decades ago and he had the bike set up to race short circuit flat track. He did pretty well at it and competed at a national level, its just a pity that he got the dreaded "rust" and it killed him a few years ago. Signature"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color." Don Hirschberg >>> Last night I met up with the person who has the very first 2008-built MY08 >>> Saab 9-3 BioPower car sold in Australia. That car has the capability to run [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >Why it's not legal to buy without 'approval' is still a mystery. I believe >it's due to the excise issue. There lies your answer..... Excise issue...... Just think, strip out (distill) other substances, and you probably have pure ALCOHOL (Ethanol) Now how much tax is there on alcohol.....? Thats why I'm sure.... > I bet once more manufacturers start making >cars that run on high-proportional ethanol fuels things will change (and the >price of ethanol fuel blends will rise). > >Craig.
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