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Car Forum / Saturn Cars / March 2006sudden engine overheating
I have a '93 Saturn SL1 with 146k miles that catastrophically overheated on the highway recently (still need to get it towed and into a repair shop from a mall parking lot!). I'm trying to get an idea of what might have happened and whether there could be significant engine damage. This problem came mostly out of nowhere, although there have been a few odd things lately: 1. Had the EGR valve replaced a few weeks ago after a hesitation problem - after my mechanic forced the valve closed, essentially disconnecting it from the pneumatic mechanism, the hesitation completely disappeared. So he installed a new valve, hesitation was gone. 2. Soon after having the EGR valve replaced, the check engine light came on again (code 26 - quad drive module), which only happened at speeds in excess of 65 mph. This light first came on at high speeds 8 months ago, and it didn't seem to be a big issue, and the light went off once slowing down to 60 mph or lower - I figured it was something worthless like the canister purge solenoid, or after the EGR incident, that it was perhaps because of the EGR. Apparently not. 3. Although the entire car is a rattling piece of plastic junk and I give up trying to diagnose individual rattles, since shortly before the EGR valve went bad, there has been a loud rattle and occasionally a grinding sound coming from somewhere under the hood. Other than the sound, everything seemed to run fine. Right before overheating, there was a chirping sound, but after a prolonged horrible squealing after overheating and attempting to drive again, it looks like these sounds are due to the drive belt covered in coolant ejected from the reservoir. 4. A few months ago, the coolant overheat/fill light flashed at me a few times (while the engine was still cold). I never had to add coolant before, but it was very slightly below the fill bar. I added some coolant and the light didn't come back. I don't know how long I was driving with the engine really hot, but suddenly I looked down and the temp gauge was way up in the red zone. Since it was pitch black, late at night, and freezing outside, and I don't own a cell phone, I decided to try to get the car to an area near a phone. The fan was blowing after turning the car off, so it must have known it was overheating. Turned it on once more after about 10 minutes, horrible squealing (wet drive belt?) when reentering the highway, and it shot up to past the red mark within 30 seconds and for the first time the coolant overheat light started flashing. I pulled over again, turned the car off, and after a few minutes once more entered the highway and drove, with the light flashing, to a mall off the highway. The car was 'smoking' but it smelled only like burning coolant. Coolant was belched everywhere under the hood and it lost possibly up to half a liter pouring onto the pavement. What are the chances that serious damage was done to the engine? Is there any relationship at all between the vacuum used to open/close the EGR valve, engine pressure, and possible head gasket seal leaks? Any suggestions are appreciated. Also - this is eerily similar to major problems I had with my last car, an 87 Nova. I had perpetual problems trying to prevent the car from overheating, but it was usually fine so long as it wasn't the middle of summer in stop-and-go traffic. Something was pressurizing the coolant (head gasket seal problem? It was blown years before and fixed, but maybe not well enough) and it was being ejected from the reservoir. The radiator appeared empty, as it had a cap and was accessible, unlike the Saturn. The car probably only badly overheated once when I tried some stupid tip I read online about leaving the radiator cap slightly open while driving to alleviate the pressure drop (I was desperate, and it was 100 degrees that day...), and it died of what was probably a cracked cylinder catastrophically on the interstate a couple months afterwards. If this is likely to happen to the Saturn, I don't think I want to spend $1000 or more fixing it now. I do not believe items 1 through 3 are related to your engine overheating. Item #4 though was a warning sign that there was a problem, possibly a major one like a head gasket or a minor one like a stuck closed thermostat, a leaking water pump/hose/radiator. By not addressing the issue at the early warning sign, this has now definitely turned into a major problem. I'd guess that you probably blew the head gasket, then cooked the oil. Never, ever continue to drive an overheated vehicle without at least letting it cool down completely and then checking to make sure the coolant level is full. Continuing to drive it, especially at high RPM/speed was the worst thing you could have done. In the future, you should immediately turn the heater and blower on full hot to help provide additional cooling to the engine and if the temperature does not go down, then pull over and shut it down completely. Please post what they find and estimated cost to repair. Also make sure you change the oil and filter as well as the coolant when you do the required mechanical repairs. Bob >I have a '93 Saturn SL1 with 146k miles that catastrophically > overheated on the highway recently (still need to get it towed and into [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > 1 > 2 & > 3 Totally unrelated and common EGR valve issue. > Right before overheating, there > was a chirping sound, but after a prolonged horrible squealing after > overheating and attempting to drive again, it looks like these sounds > are due to the drive belt covered in coolant ejected from the > reservoir. > 4. A few months ago, the coolant overheat/fill light flashed at me a > few times (while the engine was still cold). I never had to add > coolant before, but it was very slightly below the fill bar. I added > some coolant and the light didn't come back. > I don't know how long I was driving with the engine really hot, but > suddenly I looked down and the temp gauge was way up in the red zone. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > valve, engine pressure, and possible head gasket seal leaks? Any > suggestions are appreciated. > I do not believe items 1 through 3 are related to your engine overheating. > Item #4 though was a warning sign that there was a problem, possibly a major [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > change the oil and filter as well as the coolant when you do the required > mechanical repairs. Thanks for your reply. The car was started briefly to bring it up onto the tow truck bed and there was some white smoke (but nothing like the billowing huge clouds). There really wasn't much of an early warning sign since if the coolant was leaking, it wasn't doing it very much (which could be anything minor in an old car from an aging hose to a corroding radiator). It didn't seem to leak anymore after the initial refill, and I checked it a few times afterwards. The mechanic it was towed to said if it's a blown head gasket (and likely if there's *any* white smoke), it would be something like $1200-2000 to fix it, and he doesn't recommend doing so, and may even refuse to do so, on a car with over 100k miles since something else could go a month later. I don't really appreciate this mindset, since if I bought another car, it would probably have over 100k on it from the start, and something is just as likely if not more likely to be wrong with it. My Nova's head gasket was replaced at close to 100k for $600 and it survived another 4-5 years (billowing white clouds, and as a stupid teenager I drove it for 2 days like that). So I'll probably get it fixed even if I have to have it towed somewhere else after diagnosis, which is worth it for $60. Is $1200-$2000 a ridiculous price for replacing the head gasket on a Saturn? I know these cars are expensive to repair but that sounds a little crazy. The repair shop looked a little too pretty and nice for my price range, so it wouldn't surprise me if they charge top prices. But I trust them to diagnose it well. I know it's my fault for driving it further, but things are a little scary in this area for a young woman walking alone at 11:30pm on a Saturday night, plus I wasn't well-prepared for the cold weather nor did I have a cell phone. I probably should have driven it in more short spurts but that wasn't going too well. I also had nonrefundable airplane tickets and had to leave for the airport in 5 hours! It was a tough judgment call, having a vague idea but not knowing how much damage was already done or would be done by driving an extra mile or so. Will let you know what the diagnosis is. > Is $1200-$2000 a ridiculous price for replacing the head gasket on a Saturn? Yes, that is ridiculous. Get a 2nd or 3rd estimate. Lane [ lane (at) evilplastic.com ] --- Visit my Saturn Car Audio and Performance Page at http://www.evilplastic.com > > I do not believe items 1 through 3 are related to your engine overheating. > > Item #4 though was a warning sign that there was a problem, possibly a major [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > damage was already done or would be done by driving an extra mile or > so. Will let you know what the diagnosis is. More than likely it is a stuck thermostat. If engine was overheated badly enough to wraps head and blow a head gasket or cause other damage, you would be better to replace the engine with a bone yard motor because sometimes when a motor is cooked good, it is never quite right again even after repairs and if the head of block is not cracked now, it may later. >I have a '93 Saturn SL1 with 146k miles that catastrophically >overheated on the highway recently (still need to get it towed and into [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] >afterwards. If this is likely to happen to the Saturn, I don't think I >want to spend $1000 or more fixing it now. 1000 dollars or so will buy a lower mileage engine out of a wreck with install. Being a 93 I'm theorizing the coolant wasnt changed every 2 years and years of having a bad PH balance had ate up the head gasket and probably the waterpump. > More than likely it is a stuck thermostat. If engine was overheated > badly enough to wraps head and blow a head gasket or cause other [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > >have known it was overheating. Turned it on once more after about 10 > >minutes, horrible squealing (wet drive belt?) when reentering the I never change my antifreeze every 2 years but I do run around 70% anitfreeze though and have for many years and have no build up problems at all. I have a 89 burb that the overflow tank is as clean as the day it was built with no stains and it has no had a coolant change for about 7 years now. I also have a 1954 JD tractor that has not had a coolant change in 20 years but it is almost pure antifreeze (80 to 90%) and it is clean still too. It sees about 30 to 50 hours of use a year too. The best way to insure coolant stabilty is to run 60/40 or better as 50/50 does not cut it long term, especailly if a motor with aluminum parts. Wate is very reactive with disimular metals and the less of it in your coolant, the better. >1000 dollars or so will buy a lower mileage engine out of a wreck with >install. [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] >> >have known it was overheating. Turned it on once more after about 10 >> >minutes, horrible squealing (wet drive belt?) when reentering the > I never change my antifreeze every 2 years but I do run around 70% > anitfreeze though and have for many years and have no build up [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > motor with aluminum parts. Wate is very reactive with disimular metals > and the less of it in your coolant, the better. You have some points there but not enough caution to people who are in a different climate than you. Pure antifreeze will freeze and doesnt do a very good job of absorbing and transfering heat away from an engine. Clean means nothing when you have acid in your cooling system and not just in your battery. So more antifreeze can be a very bad thing. Tap water or just dirty unfiltered water gets people into trouble. I use a carbon filter jug (once used for drinking water) here at home to distile my well water. I use a 50/50 mix of dexcool and all of my vehicles cooling systems are very clean. http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF6/images/680.jpg When Mazda first came out with aluminum rotary engine in 70's it shipped with 90/10 (anti freeze to water) Pure anit freeze will "slush" at about 15 degrees and will not become a solid block until about 90 below. A 90/10 mix will slush at about 25 below (F) and 80/20 about minus 55. Peak protection is reached between 65 and 70% of about 84 below. Also when anitfreeze is present, your coolant does not freeze sold or with enongh force to damage block. At the mixture freeze point it starts to slush. It is also a misconception about cooling capacity on antifreeze too. While pure antifreeze has a slightly lower heat capacity than pure water per liter, this is not really a factor in a closed cooling system that is properly designed and pure anitfreez has a boiling point of about 380 degrees too. Also antifreeze will adhere and cuduct heat from block more readily too because it will reduce gassing from contact with a hot surface as this gassing insulates heat transfer and the higher the boil point of coolant,the less gassing and better heat transfer to coolant. One more tid bit, if you use Proplene Glycol anitfreeze (non toxic) instead of Ethlene Glycol, it reaches its maximum freeze protection at a 100% consentration. >> I never change my antifreeze every 2 years but I do run around 70% >> anitfreeze though and have for many years and have no build up [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF6/images/680.jpg Next time you drain that 7 year old fluid, buy a backflush kit and use a garden hose. I think you will be absolutely AMAZED at the corrosion/rust that comes out of that radiator and engine block. You will never see this if all you do is drain the radiator and then run some clean water through it before refilling with new coolant. Basic Ethylene Glycol-based antifreeze has corrosion inhibitors added that will last 2 to 3 years . After that, the mixture in your radiator begin to attack the metals used in the radiator cooling passages, the engine block, and head. I know what my used 60/40 (EG/distilled water) coolant looks like when I backflush my system and this is after just two years. I can't imagine what yours will look like after seven! Oh well, to each their own. Me, I believe in preventive maintenance... Knock on wood, but with 5 vehicles in the family ranging from 1991 to 2001 and having owned and maintained many other vehicles of many different makes and model over the last 30+ years, I have only replaced one radiator and no heater cores. Bob > I never change my antifreeze every 2 years but I do run around 70% > anitfreeze though and have for many years and have no build up > problems at all. I have a 89 burb that the overflow tank is as clean > as the day it was built with no stains and it has no had a coolant > change for about 7 years now. > 1000 dollars or so will buy a lower mileage engine out of a wreck with > install. > Being a 93 I'm theorizing the coolant wasnt changed every 2 years and > years of having a bad PH balance had ate up the head gasket and probably > the waterpump. I'm guessing that $1000 doesn't include installation, just pulling it out of a junkyard (and who knows what might be wrong with it?). I live in an apartment building and am not a hobbyist mechanic so the cost would likely be at least double for me! The cooling system problem has been diagnosed as the water pump. The bearings went bad, which explains that grinding and rattling sound under the hood that I described, that had occurred for a few months. You're correct that the coolant was neglected (I only checked the level and the color, but intended to get a flush, just never got around to it) but supposedly the water pumps are something that you just need to preventatively replace at ca. 100k miles, and if it was the bearings, the failure wasn't due to corrosion. The mechanic won't check the engine for damage until they can run it without causing further damage (is this common practice? it might be worth it for my sake to just turn it on for a couple minutes and check the emissions composition or pressure or whatever...), so they're replacing the water pump and belt and will then further diagnose. If the head gasket is ruined, there was no sign of it prior to the overheating incident. I had some water condensation around the engine oil cap that looked like a water/oil emulsion last time I did an oil change, but was informed that some water condensation around the cap is normal if the car is only driven short distances without warming up, particularly in winter. The rest of the drained oil looked ok. > > 1000 dollars or so will buy a lower mileage engine out of a wreck with > > install. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > in an apartment building and am not a hobbyist mechanic so the cost > would likely be at least double for me! Nah that was the whole shebang if you shop around ($400 for motor, rest labor). Yeah the replacement motor is a big question mark but then again so is yours in a way. > The cooling system problem has been diagnosed as the water pump. The > bearings went bad, which explains that grinding and rattling sound [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > short distances without warming up, particularly in winter. The rest > of the drained oil looked ok. Emissions have to be checked with the engine at a normal temp. A cylinder leak down test can be done in its current state, also pressure testing of the cooling system can be done. You might get lucky and be able to get this engine up and running without any major work at all. Make sure the mechanic uses Saturn approved (Ethylene Glycol, but without phosphates) engine coolant and also adds the required GM sealant pellets as well. Make sure he also thoroughly chemically flushes the radiator, heater core, and engine block first and then rinses it all out with distilled water following the chemical's directions to assure neutralization. This coolant replacement process should be done every two years regardless of mileage the vehicle is driven. Not having it replaced is just asking for trouble and may have contributed to premature water pump failure as well. By the way, while you are having this done, tell the mechanic to look at the rubber hoses and if they, or the thermostat, have not been replaced within the last 5 or so years, I'd suggest you do them now for peace of mind. Lastly, make sure you have the engine oil and filter changed too as I suggested earlier. If you are lucky you may get by without replacing anything else, but keep your eye on the head gasket and coolant level as these are temperamental and there may still be unobserved damage done by this incident. Bob And PS, if it runs lousy after you do all this, then clean and re-gap or replace the spark plugs since they are cheap and easy to get at. >> 1000 dollars or so will buy a lower mileage engine out of a wreck with >> install. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > short distances without warming up, particularly in winter. The rest > of the drained oil looked ok. I think I got lucky, I have the car back now with the replaced water pump and it seems to run well (no different than before). All the under-the-hood weird sounds are gone (wish I had known it was the pump beforehand! I opened the hood and tried to isolate where the sound was coming from a few times but it was futile). Guess you can only hope the damage was minimal. My view is that the car has been a serious deal (spent $3k on it 5.5 years ago), it has nearly 150k on it, so I'm not going to go seriously out of my way to keep it running for all perpetuity...at a certain point it doesn't make economic sense anymore, and even if you replace the engine - the transmission, CV joints, all sorts of things can and eventually will fail and it adds up to some serious cash, especially these Saturns which are economy junk cars with ridiculously expensive parts - one example, a cop gave me a repair order for the windshield, it cost over $400 to replace! (for a small contained crack far out of my view). When I called up glass shops, they'd look up the price for me and in shock, would ask me first what other kind of estimates I was getting, I had to tell them "I know it's expensive" because these places couldn't even believe their own price lists. I saw a list somewhere ranking the old model Saturn SL's as one of the top cars to get stolen for parts, most of which are exported to Latin America. It's just hard to decide when to actually dump the car, because at any point in time, spending $500 to get a particular thing fixed is easier than shopping for another used car. The shop said there was no evidence of head gasket failure, whatever that means. I thought about those pellets and I'm not sure if they added them - can you just purchase them from somewhere? Since they probably only added new coolant, a lot of the old sealant gunk is probably still there. Preemptively getting the thermostat and hoses changed is definitely a good idea, there's almost nothing worse than these multitudes of minor cooling system problems - any failure can destroy the car. The shop did an oil change, and the spark plugs were replaced a couple months ago. Glad to hear you escaped disaster this time around. If those are original hoses you are likely to repeat the experience very soon! Bob >I think I got lucky, I have the car back now with the replaced water > pump and it seems to run well (no different than before). All the > under-the-hood weird sounds are gone (wish I had known it was the pump > beforehand! I opened the hood and tried to isolate where the sound was > coming from a few times but it was futile). Guess you can only hope > the damage was minimal. > The shop said there was no evidence of head gasket failure >I think I got lucky, I have the car back now with the replaced water > pump and it seems to run well (no different than before). All the > under-the-hood weird sounds are gone (wish I had known it was the pump > beforehand! I opened the hood and tried to isolate where the sound was > coming from a few times but it was futile). Guess you can only hope > the damage was minimal. Glad it worked out with no additional damage. Just a tip for the future. It is often difficult to identify where a noise is coming from and there is a real safety issue when trying to get close to moving machinery. A mechanics stethescope can be of help but they can be hard to find when you need them. A proper mechanics stethescope has a long rod connected to a diaphram and this rod can be placed against a bearing housing to listen to an individual bearing while in operation. The second best technique is to use a piece of 3/4 hose a couple of feet long, place one end in your ear and the other end near various possible locations for any unusual noise. The hose will tend to isolate the noises and you will only hear noise from close to the open end. Almost any piece of hose will work. Some would also suggest a 1/4-3/8 " metal rod but this is much harder to use, especially for the inexperienced. > My view is that the car has been a serious deal (spent $3k on it 5.5 > years ago), it has nearly 150k on it, so I'm not going to go seriously [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > eventually will fail and it adds up to some serious cash, especially > these Saturns which are economy junk cars IMHO not true with ridiculously expensive > parts Agreed. Almost any automobile will give lots of very cost effective service long past 150,000 mi. PROVIDED that you DO NOT run them low on coolant or oil. Most really expensive repairs are caused by lack of lubrication or coolant or by abusive operation. Check your coolant and engine and transmission oil regularly and keep them changed at proper intervals. Change the transmission oil more frequently than mfg recommends, (IMHO use 50000 mi change interval) Do NOT ride the clutch. Check the CV joint boots and investigate any unusual oil or grease leaks, (when the leak stops it is usually because it has run out of lubricant and is about to fail. - one example, a cop gave me a repair order for the windshield, > it cost over $400 to replace! (for a small contained crack far out of > my view). When I called up glass shops, they'd look up the price for > me and in shock, would ask me first what other kind of estimates I was > getting, I had to tell them "I know it's expensive" because these > places couldn't even believe their own price lists. See the new thread "S series windshield replacement cost" I saw a list > somewhere ranking the old model Saturn SL's as one of the top cars to > get stolen for parts, most of which are exported to Latin America. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > probably only added new coolant, a lot of the old sealant gunk is > probably still there. Changing your coolant as recommended is a good practice. >Preemptively getting the thermostat and hoses > changed is definitely a good idea, there's almost nothing worse than > these multitudes of minor cooling system problems - any failure can > destroy the car. "If it aint broke don't fix it', but do practice regular inspections of all rubber parts like coolant hoses and CV boots. The original hoses may well be of much better quality that any replacement part. >The shop did an oil change, and the spark plugs were > replaced a couple months ago. Consider yourself lucky and hope that it continues, but don't count on it. In the future I would suggest that you do NOT continue to operate an overheated engine that is low on coolant. Just my .02 YMMV |
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