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Car Forum / Saturn Cars / January 2008morning only starting problem - DOHC S Series, 1993
Any guess, or bet, on what might be the cause of a very recent startup problem that only seems to happen when starting up the Saturn for the first time of the day only? Weird, it starts like a rocket any other later time after that initial first-of-day startup. The battery voltage is 12v in the morning prior to startup. After I do manage to get it going, the voltage is almost 15 volts from the charging of the alternator. When I try to get it going initially, I turn the key on and nothing but dash lights. Turn key, off and on, a couple of times and then it starts up and runs beautifully. The rest of the day it starts right up at the first turn of the key. The starter is quite new and is a reman unit which has run great. Cleaned cables everywhere when putting in the new starter. From what threads I've perused, sensors seem to be a likely candidate. Fuel filter is fairly new, with approximately 10k miles on it. New wires, plugs, no oil leaks, clean EGR with new gasket. I do have to short out the contacts to get the dash error codes. Just haven't done that yet. Oh, the battery is fairly new also. It was replaced less than a year ago. Do ETCS's go bad after a few years or so? Just wondering, or how about CPS? I will reread my Chilton book, but it seemed, if I recall correctly, that there weren't any codes for these sensors when they get to be borderline. Anyone with deep experience and has advice to give here with my slight problem with my Saturn will be appreciated. I don't have much green left to just throw parts into it and certainly do not wish to visit the labor expensive auto repair dudes as I just don't have anything to spare anymore. Thanks, I hope.......... Is it a cold cranking issure - where it does not even turn over? If that's the case, not a sensor. There are usually three terminals on the starter solenoid: battery, start and the connection to the starter motor. Turning the ign key to the start position feeds battery voltage to the start terminal on the solenoid. This pulls in the solenoid which both kicks out the starter pinion gear to engage the flywheel and also closes a switch to provide power to the starter motor. See if you get voltage at the start terminal on the solenoid first and work from that point. You can force the starter by jumping the connection from the solenoid start terminal to battery. Oppie > Any guess, or bet, on what might be the cause of a very recent startup > problem that only seems to happen when starting up the Saturn for the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > repair dudes as I just don't have anything to spare anymore. Thanks, I > hope.......... Please describe, in detail, the symptoms of the failure to start. We can't read your mind so do not know if it cranks at all and does not catch or if you have a no crank condition. Any guess without this very basic of information would be a waste of time. Bob > Any guess, or bet, on what might be the cause of a very recent startup > problem that only seems to happen when starting up the Saturn for the > first time of the day only? ... > Please describe, in detail, the symptoms of the failure to start. We can't > read your mind so do not know if it cranks at all and does not catch or if [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> problem that only seems to happen when starting up the Saturn for the >> first time of the day only? ... Sorry for not getting back to this thread sooner. Anyhow....... OK, 1St thing in morning I put the key in and turn it whereupon nothing happens. It does not crank the engine over. There's a lot of dash lights lit up. There is a steady sound, that my buddy thinks is the starter itself and that, he says, is turning but the solenoid is not engaging the fly wheel. If this is so, my question is, why would the starter run great later, and crank the engine over, for the whole day after that initial hard-to-get-going startup in the morning? This is a re-manufactured palladium starter. Anyone else getting some doofus posting in this newsgroup that is cloning everyone's posting and has a lot of crap about the end of the world stuff? I looked at their newsgroup header and it has something like "newsadmin@interware.hu" in it. Annoying. How do you get rid of that? >> Please describe, in detail, the symptoms of the failure to start. We >> can't read your mind so do not know if it cranks at all and does not [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > hard-to-get-going startup in the morning? This is a re-manufactured > palladium starter. Not out of the question for the starter to be defective and not have the pinion gear properly get kicked out to drive the flywheel. Could also be a failed over-running clutch - also in the starter. How old is the starter and is it still in warranty? Upon turning the ignition key, you should hear a loud klunk which is the solenoid pulling in. This usually pushes out the pinion gear to engage the flywheel (though some starters use a worm gear to push out the pinion). Another unlikely possibility is that the starter is slightly misaligned. Loosen the mounting bolts, wiggle about and re-tighten. Cold weather will cause the solenoid to bind a bit. I had one that was a problem below freezing. found that there was water getting into the starter when I drove through a big puddle. Water froze overnight and wouldn't start the next morning. You could also check the voltage at the starter terminal from the ignition switch. If there is an abnormal voltage drop, the solenoid may not have enough power to pull in completely. (Rather than replace wiring or an ignition switch it is often easier to simply add a relay). >>> Please describe, in detail, the symptoms of the failure to start. We >>> can't read your mind so do not know if it cranks at all and does not [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > enough power to pull in completely. (Rather than replace wiring or an > ignition switch it is often easier to simply add a relay). Thanks for the advice. I'll get under the old auto when it warms up a tad. Only got a parking lot out here to work from and since it's in the below freezing cold range guess I'll have to hold off awhile. Before all this happened the ~ 1year old starter ran great. That makes me think the alignment couldn't have too far off. Others suggested that the cables being original on this 93 might be corroded inside even though the cable exterior looks OK. Weak battery, corroded battery connections, bad cable(s), bad ground to frame/engine, bad/loose connection at starter, defective ignition switch, defective starter relay, defective solenoid, defective starter motor, or any of the wiring in between. You should start with a good schematic and a multi-meter and diagnose when the problem is exhibited to find the problem. Good luck. Check/eliminate the simplest things first as this is usually the cause. Bob >> Please describe, in detail, the symptoms of the failure to start. We >> can't read your mind so do not know if it cranks at all and does not [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > I looked at their newsgroup header and it has something like > "newsadmin@interware.hu" in it. Annoying. How do you get rid of that? I hear you. A lot of these things you suggest I did check when installing the starter a little less than a year ago. Now, I still see no visible corrosion and there wasn't any showing a year ago when I installed it. I do clean contacts everywhere when doing these type of auto maintenance tasks. I can't check out the wiring at the starter until it warms up at least for one day. I also have to load test the battery which is also quite new when I can get somewhere to do that. I had already checked the ground to frame back then also. The rest would require my pulling the starter which I don't really want to do now as I'm out in snow country with no garage or warm place to work. I'll have to limp along for awhile probably. I also have yet to check the error codes to see if anything pops up. > Weak battery, corroded battery connections, bad cable(s), bad ground to > frame/engine, bad/loose connection at starter, defective ignition switch, [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >> I looked at their newsgroup header and it has something like >> "newsadmin@interware.hu" in it. Annoying. How do you get rid of that? Sounds like a connection or ignition switch problem. As stated above, you need to check for voltage at the starter terminal while attempting to start. James Sounds like the starter again or a bad connection at the starter. I had a remanufactured one only last 3 months on my Saturn and was doing what you say. I had to get another one. Free exchange. Sometimes you get a dud. Fred 94 SC2 > Any guess, or bet, on what might be the cause of a very recent startup > problem that only seems to happen when starting up the Saturn for the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > repair dudes as I just don't have anything to spare anymore. Thanks, I > hope.......... You might be right. I do have a limited lifetime replacement warranty, if that's any good. Just hate to do this again, especially out in the elements at this cold part of winter. > Sounds like the starter again or a bad connection at the starter. I had a > remanufactured one [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >> repair dudes as I just don't have anything to spare anymore. Thanks, I >> hope.......... In news:478ca611$0$10982$4c368faf@roadrunner.com Shark <Mshark@rochester.rr.com> wrote: > Any guess, or bet, on what might be the cause of a very recent > startup problem that only seems to happen when starting up the > Saturn for the first time of the day only? Morning sickness? You know what that means ... Hope it's a Sky.  SignatureBert Hyman St. Paul, MN bert@iphouse.com |
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