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Car Forum / Antique and Collectibles / Studebaker / March 2005How to reduce tapered axle risks with the Avanti
Been following the discussions about tapered axles recently, as in the March Co-Operator and other sources. Fairly soon we'll be getting into the Avanti's rear end, since it has some (carrier bearing?) noise, been ages since anything was lubricated, going through the brakes, etc. I's a T/T with 3.31 ratio. Should I consider replacing the axle shafts with new ones, to avoid risk of one breaking down the road? Want to be able to drive the car safely at "normal" highway speeds, which in Atlanta means keeping it under 80 MPH <G>, but I would not otherwise subject the car to "aggressive" driving. Sounds like the main culprit for shafts breaking is simple age/fatique, not some inherent design defect that cannot be worked around? The S.I. catalog does list new shafts, and I do see a pair gets me about halfway to the cost of a new flanged axle setup. In my stash I do have a spare pair of shafts that have been wrapped up in paper for 30+ years, plus a whole unused 3.08 rearend that could be a donor. OK to use ones that are that old but unused? Should bearings or anything else be replaced at the same time? Thanks in advance for your thoughts...Chris Collins 63 Avanti R-2 66 Cruiser With a Avanti especially, I'd consider the flanged axles. A rear wheel leaving a fiberglass car is not a pretty sight. If you are going to keep the car and drive it, it's cheap insurance IMHO. > Been following the discussions about tapered axles recently, as in the > March Co-Operator and other sources. Fairly soon we'll be getting into [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Thanks in advance for your thoughts...Chris Collins > 63 Avanti R-2 66 Cruiser  SignatureJP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 Challenger (Green Wrapper) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2 62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div) 56 Golden Hawk 50 Commander Coupe Here we go again, just what we don't need, scary answers....... Next thing ya know we'll have is a "safety issue" with the Dana tapered rear ends again..... There are NO, none, zip, zero, nada inherent risks in the Avanti, or any OTHER Dana, tapered axle rear end! This old wife's tale rears it's unnecessary and ugly head every so often, but it's just that, an old wife's tale. You might even hear, "Ya have ta repack doz wheel bearin's udder wise da wheel falls off", but there's not enough evidence to support even THAT claim! Somehow everybody seems to forget that Studebaker wasn't the ONLY car maker to use Dana tapered axles. How many Mopars, Internationals, Jeeps, etc., (especially ALL of the heavy duty applications), came apart and tore the fender off or hurt someone?! A bad rear wheel bearing gives fair warning 99.9% of the time before it fails, period Chris, I'll just tell ya this, I slapped an Avanti rear end, (3.54 Dana 44 TT with tapered axles that I had bought from someone who had it under his work bench for years), in my '60 Lark last summer and thrashed the hell out of it with a SPLIT keyway slot in the right hub!!! I drove the car 'til the end of summer and when I get another hub I'll change the bad hub this spring!!! Do NOT listen to the doomsday BS about the tapered axles being inferior or man-killers. Just ask the nay-sayers how many they've actually seen for themselves that have failed outright, or caused damage and/or injuries while operating a normally driven Studebaker. Also, even while involved in extreme racing none that we know about has done so at the race track! Ask the guys who run the thousand mile Panamericana in Mexico in an almost stock Studebaker, and on and on..... If the Dana rear axle assembly is put together correctly and gets the same routine service as ANY other rear end, it has proven itself to be SUPERIOR to MANY brand-x rear ends, (I've had some lousy ford offerings cause damage to my cars). IMHO, if you want to, "reduce tapered axle risks with the Avanti", or ANY vehicle, I would simply pay strict attention to the preventive maintenance and service requirements for the rear end as outlined in your shop manual and never even look back Chris. SignatureSonny http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/sdc_forum/default.asp http://RacingStudebakers.com > With a Avanti especially, I'd consider the flanged axles. A rear > wheel leaving a fiberglass car is not a pretty sight. If you are going [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Thanks in advance for your thoughts...Chris Collins > > 63 Avanti R-2 66 Cruiser OK Sonny, there ARE risks. I personally broke 3 axles, and lost the wheel once. First time was on a 63 GT that lost a wheel/axle about 60 feet down the drag strip in the late 60's. Than lost one on a beater Lark with a 259 20 years back and again last year on my R2 Lark. You can read the back issues of the Avanti magazine for more examples. The new TW's makes the same point, the old axles ARE failing, in my case, maybe only 1 out of 100 cars, but losing a wheel at speed is nothing to sneeze at. I personally know of more than a few other failures, as I'm sure others do. To say "There are NO, none, zip, zero, nada inherent risks in the Avanti, or any OTHER Dana, tapered axle rear end!" is silly and dangerous. > Here we go again, just what we don't need, scary answers....... Next thing > ya know we'll have is a "safety issue" with the Dana tapered rear ends [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > preventive maintenance and service requirements for the rear end as outlined > in your shop manual and never even look back Chris. SignatureJP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 Challenger (Green Wrapper) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2 62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div) 56 Golden Hawk 50 Commander Coupe I'm tired of the tapered axle scare stories, it's pure BS and I would like it to finally end. What you THINK doesn't make something silly or dangerous. You are NOT the last authority and hell, neither am I, but if you THINK the rear ends are dangerous prove it with evidence not "I dun it" stories. I have plenty of "I dun it" stories and that doesn't make it so. Unless someone has absolute statistical evidence, (failure rate per X number of cars), run 'em with complete and full confidence fellas! If you think the sky is falling again, oops, I mean, the tapered axle rear ends are dangerous, put flanged axles in but please DO NOT get this silly and dangerous old wife's tale going again..... SignatureSonny http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/sdc_forum/default.asp http://RacingStudebakers.com > OK Sonny, there ARE risks. I personally broke 3 axles, and lost the > wheel once. First time was on a 63 GT that lost a wheel/axle about 60 [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > preventive maintenance and service requirements for the rear end as outlined > > in your shop manual and never even look back Chris. Sonny, I don't know where you expect me to get such data. You stated there is no danger, and that it's pure BS, and I know from personal experience that they break. I know I'm not the only one, but can't give you a absolute statistical evidence anymore than I can on brake lines rusting out. I am certain Ted and company are providing a safer axle based on my limited experience. I suggest you write a rebuttal to the the other BS'ers in this months Co-Operators discussing axle failure and dispel the wives tale. > I'm tired of the tapered axle scare stories, it's pure BS and I would like > it to finally end. What you THINK doesn't make something silly or dangerous. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > dangerous, put flanged axles in but please DO NOT get this silly and > dangerous old wife's tale going again..... SignatureJP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 Challenger (Green Wrapper) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2 62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div) 56 Golden Hawk 50 Commander Coupe That's my point, there IS no such data, only (perhaps authentic), "I dun it" stories or stories that somebody heard, embellished and passed along. I'll believe you had failures, (but what were the circumstances and variables?), if you believe that the vast majority of others driving their Studebakers have not had a single failure, and that millions of those cars have been subjected to some very severe service. I think that saying the tapered axle rear ends are dangerous is simply irresponsible and VERY damaging to the whole of Studebakering unless there is absolute evidence proving it. This is nothing personal, this is a very open and widely read forum, and it can cause great harm for the sake of a few opinions. I prefer to compile evidence, (if there IS any such evidence), then (as you know me very well), would be the very first to sound the alarm. I'll take your suggestion to write a rebuttal if you'll not tacitly certify the old wife's tale by subscribing to it in this very public forum. SignatureSonny http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/sdc_forum/default.asp http://RacingStudebakers.com > Sonny, I don't know where you expect me to get such data. You stated > there is no danger, and that it's pure BS, and I know from personal [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > dangerous, put flanged axles in but please DO NOT get this silly and > > dangerous old wife's tale going again..... Yea, that's gonna happen. It is a public unmoderated forum and the NG'ers will form their own opinions about any advice given. > I'll take your suggestion to write a rebuttal if you'll not tacitly certify > the old wife's tale by subscribing to it in this very public forum. SignatureJP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 Challenger (Green Wrapper) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2 62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div) 56 Golden Hawk 50 Commander Coupe I agree, but I was talking about someone who is called upon for advice, as an experienced hand with Studebakers, you. Look, I think that there's enough stories, myths, misinformation, and just plain BS used to put Studebakers down already. It's time for everyone who dispenses advice to nip another, MUCH more damaging, story in the bud. Like I suggested, and perhaps more palpable for those "twitchy" because of what they've heard, pay strict attention to the preventive maintenance and servicing as laid out in the service manual and it's a well known fact that the rear end performs very capably, as it was designed. Can we agree on that? SignatureSonny http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/sdc_forum/default.asp http://RacingStudebakers.com > Yea, that's gonna happen. It is a public unmoderated forum and the > NG'ers will form their own opinions about any advice given. > > > I'll take your suggestion to write a rebuttal if you'll not tacitly certify > > the old wife's tale by subscribing to it in this very public forum. Sonny, you are asking me to stop giving advice I believe to be true so as not to besmirch the Studebaker image and that's just lame, especially when safety is involved. I'll agree that if the axles have been carefully maintained for the last 40 years or so, they are less likely to break, but that doesn't change the fact that if and when they do, you'll likely loose a wheel. I take the advice of folks like Ted, Nelson Bove, Jim Pepper and Studebaker into my opinion about flanged axles being safer than tapered axles. I don't pretend to know anything about metal fatigue, but I trust the opinion of those that do. Maybe someone can explain why a old axle is more likely to break than a new one, but it's above my head. > I agree, but I was talking about someone who is called upon for advice, as > an experienced hand with Studebakers, you. Look, I think that there's enough [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the rear end performs very capably, as it was designed. Can we agree on > that? SignatureJP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 Challenger (Green Wrapper) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2 62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div) 56 Golden Hawk 50 Commander Coupe So be it..... You can bet that I'll be asking for some statistics from Ted, Nelson and Jim. If you really read the TW article you'll notice that it's primarily focused on high performance applications, with some vague assertions about any tapered axles. I wonder what you'd say if you had a newly minted axle business? My point, unless there's verifiable, contiguous evidence, then it's an opinion, no matter who gives it. IF there was a real problem, like I said, I would be the first one to sound the alarm, but I guess you missed that. I do not expect you to stop giving advice, just stop saying that it's an absolute truth until it's a proven fact!!! BUT, if it really IS a problem, then by God, let's not hide it! Let's make sure that nobody is ever hurt or killed by this very dangerous problem with every Studebaker still surviving, (except for the '65 and '66 cars and the "safely modified" cars, of course). I'd NEVER even try to sell my Studebakers without telling my prospective buyer about the killer rear end! Mebbe we can get Bob Shaw to put a big banner and warning on the home page of the SDC website about the killer rear ends and let's make sure the killer rear end gets on the front page in the TW too! It should be done ASAP! Let's all ask Ed at York if he can get some BIG yellow vinyl stickers with black stripes and a warning about the frailty of the axles printed up ASAP! There SHOULD be SOME kind of warning so nobody will be injured and the warning sticker should be required to be affixed to the dash AND rear end of any Studebaker so equipped. That should be the first thing that should be discussed when buying/selling any Studebaker, "Does the car have the killer rear axle still in it?" One good thing though, Studebakers without "safe" rear ends will be a LOT cheaper from now on! (OH! Does that mean that we should get some stickers made for other parts of our Studebakers, (I've heard some other stories ya know), or ALL of the other metal fatigued, old brand-x cars too? WOW! A windfall business!) If it's true that you're so passionate about giving the right advice, then what's really lame is not putting that extremely important disclaimer in all of your ebay ads.... SignatureSonny http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/sdc_forum/default.asp http://RacingStudebakers.com > Sonny, you are asking me to stop giving advice I believe to be true so > as not to besmirch the Studebaker image and that's just lame, especially [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > the rear end performs very capably, as it was designed. Can we agree on > > that? LOL Sonny!! Just grease your shaft frequently and it won't fall off. <LMAO> You're EXACTLY right Mike! But I already have enough problems with the old, worn shaft, I'm havin' a hell of a time keepin' the fruit flies away from it! <GG> SignatureSonny http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/sdc_forum/default.asp http://RacingStudebakers.com > LOL Sonny!! > > Just grease your shaft frequently and it won't fall off. > That's my point, there IS no such data, only (perhaps authentic), "I dun it" > stories or stories that somebody heard, embellished and passed along. I'll [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I'll take your suggestion to write a rebuttal if you'll not tacitly certify > the old wife's tale by subscribing to it in this very public forum. I'm not sure I'd go so far as advocating the flanged axles for everybody, but certainly you have to admit that cutting a keyway in an axle creates stress risers that make it more likely to fail - and outboard of the bearing as well, which is the worst possible place for it to go. Add to that that our cars are all at a minimum 40-some years old, and who knows how they've been abused over the years... I know that if I ever got really serious about dragging a Stude, one of the first things I would do would be to either do a rear end swap or else get a set of those new flanged axles. Now I'm wondering - if someone wanted to put together a really "overbuilt" but still stock-appearing rear end, would a more modern Dana 44 center fit into the Stude housing? And if so, would it be possible to have the flanged axles made with 30 or 33 splines on the inner end to mate with the modern center? I personally don't have an overpowering need for a flanged rear although I wouldn't turn my nose up at one should it be offered to me. However, if someone has the money to get one and it buys a little more confidence and piece of mind, I certainly wouldn't try to talk him out of it - it's indisputably an upgrade over stock. Look at it this way - a fiber cam gear is perfectly adequate for "most" driving conditions, but there's still a market for the aluminum ones, just for people who want to make absolutely sure that their cam gear doesn't strip when they throw an exceptionally hard shift or run valve springs with higher-than-stock pressures. I personally don't have a problem with that, and that doesn't seem to be nearly as contentious an issue as the rear end thing, although the consequences of a failed cam gear are a lot less scary than a snapped axle. nate (massive overkill is your friend) Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel There are hundreds of thousands of Jeeps out there... Pick one that is narrower than a Stude and redrill and turn the flange a bit and you are done. This is almost getting political.... Studebaker bought these from Dana.. So did millions of others. Dana engineered this to do a particular job, and it performed well in that design area. But it was a low bid situation, so there is/was no incentive to overbuild for the spec requested. If you are exposed to hundreds of unknown past used cars... be concerned, and take appropriate maintenance steps. If you are careful about your maintenance and service of your lone precious Studebaker... You'll probably never have a problem. (Or blow a radiator hose, or have a flat tire, or need a water pump, or need a clutch). I would be more concerned about re-using old taper bearings (and the outer races), just because they aren't rusty. This is bad juju. Those wheel bearings (and there is only one in back as compared to two in front) get marginal lube, almost non-existent adjustment, and spend their life being ignored. Just because the failure rate is low doesn't mean that they are indestructible....just like those axles... Jeff (Dana is still alive, Studebaker isn't...sort of...) Rice "Nate Nagel" wrote... <snip> > I know that if I ever got really serious about dragging a Stude, one of > the first things I would do would be to either do a rear end swap or else [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > flanged axles made with 30 or 33 splines on the inner end to mate with the > modern center? <snip> > I would be more concerned about re-using old taper bearings (and the outer > races), just because they aren't rusty. This is bad juju. Those wheel > bearings (and there is only one in back as compared to two in front) get > marginal lube, almost non-existent adjustment, and spend their life being > ignored. Just because the failure rate is low doesn't mean that they are > indestructible....just like those axles... > Jeff (Dana is still alive, Studebaker isn't...sort of...) Rice They "shouldn't" get marginal lube if they are maintained per the shop manual. If they're repacked every 20K miles as the book says (or regularly given a shot of grease, on the early style rears with the fittings) I bet they would last virtually forever, esp. if the endplay was checked each time. nate > OK Sonny, there ARE risks. I personally broke 3 axles, and lost the > wheel once. First time was on a 63 GT that lost a wheel/axle about 60 > feet down the drag strip in the late 60's. Than lost one on a beater > Lark with a 259 20 years back and again last year on my R2 Lark. You can [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > at. I personally know of more than a few other failures, as I'm sure > others do. Vehicles have crashed - even brand new ones - due to part failure over the years. We should really all take to walking more. Maybe there's money in devising a Stude safety kit where you get air bags, side air bags, 3-point seat belts with integral igniter lockup, antilock four-wheel disc brakes (with double-redundant, dual master cylinders of course), run flat tires, 10MPH bumpers and a Dana 60, flanged axle rear. Personally fitted helmet optional. <G> Naw I prefer the Full floating Dana 60. Course, come to think of it, it is flanged where it bolts to the hub. >>OK Sonny, there ARE risks. I personally broke 3 axles, and lost the >>wheel once. First time was on a 63 GT that lost a wheel/axle about 60 [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > of course), run flat tires, 10MPH bumpers and a Dana 60, flanged axle > rear. Personally fitted helmet optional. <G> You mean these? <http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4531108109> > Naw I prefer the Full floating Dana 60. Course, come to think of it, it > is flanged where it bolts to the hub. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >> of course), run flat tires, 10MPH bumpers and a Dana 60, flanged axle >> rear. Personally fitted helmet optional. <G> SignatureWTF is Oujdeivß? http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3762&version=kjv to contact me try Oudeis via softhome.net Actually I was thinking of the ones in my Stude 3/4 ton truck. > You mean these? > <http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4531108109> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >>> of course), run flat tires, 10MPH bumpers and a Dana 60, flanged axle >>> rear. Personally fitted helmet optional. <G> But those are similiar. Although Stude Dana 60's only had 16 splines. > Actually I was thinking of the ones in my Stude 3/4 ton truck. > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >>>> of course), run flat tires, 10MPH bumpers and a Dana 60, flanged axle >>>> rear. Personally fitted helmet optional. <G> Cars do crash, but even a purist should not object to saving a few cars and their drivers by modest improvements. Dual master cylinders, seat belts, stainless brake lines, radial tires and yes, even flanged axles make good sense to many. I too use exaggeration to make a point, but we're not talking air bags and crash helmets here.<g> At the very least, if one person decided to check their rear axle bearings from this thread, I'll be happy. If others want to take the 'sh.t happens' or "if it was good enough 50 years ago, it's good enough today attitude ", than, that's their choice. > Vehicles have crashed - even brand new ones - due to part failure > over the years. We should really all take to walking more. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > of course), run flat tires, 10MPH bumpers and a Dana 60, flanged axle > rear. Personally fitted helmet optional. <G> SignatureJP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 Challenger (Green Wrapper) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2 62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div) 56 Golden Hawk 50 Commander Coupe I'm not a purist by any stretch of the imagination, but what concerns a lot of us was the blanket statement that there is an inherent danger to operating a Studebaker with a tapered axle rear end, period. At this point in time, there is no real proof to support that statement, and to perpetuate that statement without real proof, via an international forum, is irresponsible to all Studebaker owners. I think that a more responsible way to talk about the tapered axle rear ends is to say that if, (as with ANY vehicle), the maintenance schedule and procedures are followed as outlined in the Studebaker shop manual, the tapered axle rear ends will perform as designed, to give many, many years of completely trouble free service. I don't agree that any Studebaker owner has an attitude even anywhere near, " 'sh.t happens' or "if it was good enough 50 years ago, it's good enough today". I also don't agree with "The sky is falling!" attitude. I agree that if this thread prompts people to look at the maintenance of their cars more closely, then that is a good thing. SignatureSonny http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/sdc_forum/default.asp http://RacingStudebakers.com > Cars do crash, but even a purist should not object to saving a few > cars and their drivers by modest improvements. Dual master cylinders, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > of course), run flat tires, 10MPH bumpers and a Dana 60, flanged axle > > rear. Personally fitted helmet optional. <G> > I think that a more responsible way to talk about the tapered axle rear ends > is to say that if, (as with ANY vehicle), the maintenance schedule and > procedures are followed as outlined in the Studebaker shop manual, the > tapered axle rear ends will perform as designed, to give many, many years of > completely trouble free service. Now that I agree with, but how many axles have had their bearings serviced at the recommended intervals, have always had the nuts torqued to spec, and always had the drums pulled with the correct puller and reinstalled clean and dry? I guess what I'm saying is that they need to be watched, because it is a fact that if they are abused, they can fail. nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel Sonny I agree with you completely. I have put many thousands of hard miles on my Studes for many years and have never had a problem. I think for racing the flanged axles may have an advantage. I think the only advantage for most would be easier brake maintenance. I for one will continue driving my Studes daily without worry. SignatureJerry Kaiser (Studeblu) 64 One Ton 61 Champ pick up 53 Starlight Coupe 53 2R6 > Here we go again, just what we don't need, scary answers....... Next thing > ya know we'll have is a "safety issue" with the Dana tapered rear ends [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] >> > Thanks in advance for your thoughts...Chris Collins >> > 63 Avanti R-2 66 Cruiser Sonny How do you ignore and/or explain 40 plus years of metal fatigue? It don't matter if it's tappered or flanged, the damn metal will fatigue. I will be picking up 2 sets of Ted's flanged axles at York. Damn cheap insurance on a $6k+ paint and body job. I would shudder thinking fiberglass. Ron Butts 59 Super Lark in progress > Here we go again, just what we don't need, scary answers....... Next thing > ya know we'll have is a "safety issue" with the Dana tapered rear ends [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] >> > Thanks in advance for your thoughts...Chris Collins >> > 63 Avanti R-2 66 Cruiser The Jeep guys are changing to the Spicer 60 rear because of axle fatigue on the smaller rears. Losing a axle and wheel while crawling over a rock is bad, losing a wheel and tire on the Interstate at 80 MPH is a adventure. If you repack and inspect your bearings every 10-20,000 miles, the risk may be small, but it's a risk. I've only lost 3 on perhaps 300 cars, but have not been putting a lot of miles on them recently. Saying there is no risk is not a testament to Studebaker quality, it's just bad advice. Ron Butts wrote: > Sonny > How do you ignore and/or explain 40 plus years of metal fatigue? It don't [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] >>>>Thanks in advance for your thoughts...Chris Collins >>>>63 Avanti R-2 66 Cruiser SignatureJP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 Challenger (Green Wrapper) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2 62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div) 56 Golden Hawk 50 Commander Coupe You bring up apples and oranges to prove that the tapered axles are inferior? Not very scientific but I'd say that the Jeep axles are subject to somewhat more horsepower, stress, strain, punishment, water, mud, dust, loss of lubrication when in unusual attitudes, tire size is NOT what the vehicle rear end was designed for, and on and on and on.... It's bad advice and bad karma to keep the old wife's tale going too. I've never noticed any disclaimer/statement in any of your ebay advertisements about the inherent problems with the Studebaker rear end. In all fairness, is this something that you're keeping from the buying public or just a "gut feeling"? See what I mean? Where do you really stand on this old wife's tale John? SignatureSonny http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/sdc_forum/default.asp http://RacingStudebakers.com > The Jeep guys are changing to the Spicer 60 rear because of axle fatigue > on the smaller rears. Losing a axle and wheel while crawling over a rock [quoted text clipped - 90 lines] > >>>>Thanks in advance for your thoughts...Chris Collins > >>>>63 Avanti R-2 66 Cruiser I'd hate to simply count up all the variables necessary to calculate wear and tear plus, "explain 40 plus years of metal fatigue" to come up with a solid scientific answer. The only thing I'm gonna ignore is the tapered axle scare stories and run the hell out of the tapered axle rear ends until somebody has solid scientific evidence to the refute Dana's already long, formidable, and outstanding service record...... I'd recommend that a fella puts the flanged axles in if he feels the desire to do so but please do not put an unfair burden on those who cannot or are not inclined to put in flanged axles. Please do not spread an old wife's tale. Thanks in advance. SignatureSonny http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/sdc_forum/default.asp http://RacingStudebakers.com > Sonny > How do you ignore and/or explain 40 plus years of metal fatigue? It don't [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > >> > Thanks in advance for your thoughts...Chris Collins > >> > 63 Avanti R-2 66 Cruiser > I'd hate to simply count up all the variables necessary to calculate wear > and tear plus, "explain 40 plus years of metal fatigue" to come up with a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > not inclined to put in flanged axles. Please do not spread an old wife's > tale. Thanks in advance. This all really started on the group that discusses 1956 GH's, over bad oil pumps, cracking frames, axles breaking and rocker arms and lifters failing, all in 56J's, oh and plus defective rocker shafts I blew a gut, and asked that they stop being voices of gloom and doom. I guess it is just going to continue. > I'd hate to simply count up all the variables necessary to calculate wear > and tear plus, "explain 40 plus years of metal fatigue" to come up with a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > not inclined to put in flanged axles. Please do not spread an old wife's > tale. Thanks in advance. This all really started on the group that discusses 1956 GH's, over bad oil pumps, cracking frames, axles breaking and rocker arms and lifters failing, all in 56J's, oh and plus defective rocker shafts I blew a gut, and asked that they stop being voices of gloom and doom. I guess it is just going to continue. > Been following the discussions about tapered axles recently, as in the > March Co-Operator and other sources. Fairly soon we'll be getting into [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Thanks in advance for your thoughts...Chris Collins > 63 Avanti R-2 66 Cruiser If you have old, unused shafts they are probably the exact same thing that you would get from SI. I've only seen one break (on a dragstrip) and heard of another (drag racer test driving an R2/4-speed Lark) - I'm not saying it *can't* happen under normal day-to-day use, but they usually go when subjected to shock load. If you're worried about it here's what I'd do. Take the unused axles that you have and run those; since you've already got them it won't cost you anything. Paint a thin, straight line on each of them. Whenever you pull the axles to repack your wheel bearings, look at the painted line - if it's no longer straight, then you know that the axle is starting to twist which means you either need to modify your driving habit or consider upgrading. (I know which *I* would pick <G>) Make sure the key fits snugly in its way both in the axle and the hub, and install the hubs clean and dry, no matter how tempting it seems to grease them. That will minimize the risk of splitting the hub due to excessive clamping force from the nut or rotational play. As for bearings, if they look good, they probably *are* good. That means no rust, galling, or discoloration - but really, I haven't seen too many bad Stude wheel bearings, they seem to hold up well. I've only replaced them when they are rusted from sitting for years. Most of the time cleaning and repacking is sufficient. New bearings aren't always better - the originals are probably US-made Timken, who knows where the ones you get from the parts store are from and if they're made of the same material and hardened the same way. All that said, if you do plan on driving the car in an, um, "enthusiastic" manner (full throttle acceleration and hard shifts,) you might want to consider some of Ted's flanged axles. good luck, nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel Thanks for taking a reasonable middle ground in this discussion, Nate. I don't doubt for one minute that JP and others have had tapered axles break. Neither do I doubt for one minute that tapered axles, if properly assembled and properly maintained are perfectly safe if the car is driven normally. How many of those broken axles occurred in cars that had had improper, or NO maintenance given to the rear axles? How many of us routinely set the axles shaft endplay? How many of us here on the NG have heard horror stories about bodgers damaging tapered axles or hubs through the use of an incorrect axle puller? I'm quite prepared to believe that at least some of those axles failure can be laid to inadequate maintenance. I like your paint stripe suggestion. Another good idea might be to have any used replacement shafts Magnafluxed before installation. I won't claim there is NO risk of tapered axles breaking, but we can minimize that risk by exercising common sense. Even flanged axles can break, or if they are GM, simply fall out because the C-clips come loose. The NICE thing about Stude tapered axles is that you CAN adjust the bearings to the optimum clearance. Other styles, if the bearing is slack, you have to replace it, a non-trivial job. Gord Richmond Sonny, You are a cool racing Studebaker guy, and give good advice on here, but you have backed yourself into a corner on this topic. IT DOES HAPPEN!!! Read your old AOAI and SDC back issues dude!! Nobody went back in time and planted the axle failure articles with photographs of Avanti's that slid off the road lying on the frame in a ditch to prove you wrong!! Thanks for the kind words Mike, but I don't give advice here. <G> Like I said though, ya gotta get the "safe" axles installed if ya think ya need 'em, but I just wanna have the "killer axle" stories verified. I wanna see something like, out of the millions of miles that Studebakers have racked up, and are still racking up as we speak, how many failures did we have, (for each model rear end), say from 1966 until today. We can then make an informed, intelligent judgment as to the importance of an issue. If I don't see that, then I gotta give my opinion, no corners in cyberspace Mike. <G> To be an expert ya have to have education or experience, I just want a straight answer.<G> SignatureSonny http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/sdc_forum/default.asp http://RacingStudebakers.com > Sonny, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that slid off the road lying on the frame in a ditch to prove you > wrong!! I broke a Studebaker axle once. It was on my 1940 President, in about 1968 or so. I did a little-old-lady acceleration away from a stoplight a block from my house, on the way home. It took me three days to get a NOS one - must have cost me $20 or so, including shipping. So what! These fluke things happen. Karl > Thanks for the kind words Mike, but I don't give advice here. <G> Like I > said though, ya gotta get the "safe" axles installed if ya think ya need [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > that slid off the road lying on the frame in a ditch to prove you > > wrong!! Hi Karl, Let me add two more axle failures to your list. Dad's ragtop and mine. I cannot recall the curcumstances of Dad's faliure but mine was at 5 MPH pulling away from a stoplight doing a 'little old lady' acceleration also. Had just come in from a 70 MPH run on the interstate. I still run tapered axles in my Studes but I also keep that broken stub in the glove box to remind me to CAREFULLY inspect my axle shafts every time I have the drums off. >I broke a Studebaker axle once. >It was on my 1940 President, in about 1968 or so. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] >> > that slid off the road lying on the frame in a ditch to prove you >> > wrong!! Lee DeLaBarre Daytona62 My guess is there has been more broken axles than 600 HP non-blown Stude engines.Or 500HP non-blown engines.Or 400HP non-blown engines.Anyone claiming to have built one better have certified dyno results along with notarized letters of verification from 17 witnesses and even after that they will have to prove it to me personally by running that engine on a dyno with me present.We can then make an informed, intelligent judgment as to the importance of an issue. If I don't see that, then I gotta give my opinion, no corners in cyberspace Sonny. <G> To be an expert ya have to have education or experience, I just want a straight answer.<G> Bob(lampooner)40 Sonny, In the thirty five odd years since I started driving, I've never had a Studebaker related axle break. I've seen one Studebaker rear axle break on a Hawk in downtown Mesa, Az. But, that car had well in excess of 300,000 miles on it and the fella that owned it liked to burn rubber in all 4 gears constantly. I've had lug nuts pull through the rim of some Ford rims that some knuckle head put on my T-Cab (before I bought it), because another knucle head on this NG told him they'd fit just fine. As I was sliding in the mud in the ditch on the right, I watched the tire make a left hand turn at the next intersection. Now, with that said I'm not overly concerned with the prospect of Studebaker engineering failures like this happening. It is a part of driving a vehicle that hasn't been made in nearly 40 years, or longer. No matter what one says, or does there is all ways going to be the risk that something is going to fail. Like you implied, if someone is a worry wart and can't sleep at night because of the fear of an axle breaking then they should rush out and buy the new and improved axles and spend that money. It's only fair that they should do so. So, the straight answer is, it happens. The older these vehicles become and the longer they are driven on the highway, the more frequent the failures may be. This is due to age, metal fatigue, abuse, poor maintenance and just a factor of the odds catching up with time. I have to agree with you though, there is no need to panic. I guess it's sorta the same thing with the hoopla about the brakes being no good in modern traffic and everyone rushing out to buy the new and improved disc brake setups for these using GM, or Ford components. I've got a friend that swears at both, because of the failure rate he has incountered in using this new and improved stuff. Went through 5 new Ford M/C before he found one that worked right and apparently wasn't made in Mexico, and that was within the course of 1 month. You just have to figure that some people are going to worry themselves to death (probably before either fails) and others are going to buy into the frenzy. We all know why that is, right? Bo Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I now understand that this is much more a maintenance issue than anything else. I like the ideas of having the shafts magnafluxed and painting a line down them for future monitoring. Knowing that my diff. and bearings have not been serviced since the early 1980's at least, we'll be going thru those items in working on the brakes and finding the cause of the diff. noise. Spoke with the gentleman in the local SDC chapter who works on a lot of our cars; at different times, he had both the axles on his Avanti fail, and the culprit was the keyway being machined too far up the shaft, causing a weak area. Chris That's a great idea Chris, and I'm sure it will alleviate any questions in your mind. I predict that you'll find that the parts are in excellent condition. I've never heard of the problem with machining the keyway slot too far. In fact, I wonder if it must have been an isolated problem as I've never seen ANY Studebaker service bulletin with dire warnings about problems with the tapered axle rear ends, (although I would not say that it didn't happen). Happy to hear that you're getting that Avanti together and ready to roll. Hope to see it sometime in the future. Oh, one little tidbit about that noise, I had a noise in my Dana too, turned out that the fill plug can be tightened to far into the cover and if you have a TT rear end, it can hit the clutch pack carrier! Good luck! SignatureSonny http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/sdc_forum/default.asp http://RacingStudebakers.com > Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I now understand that this is much > more a maintenance issue than anything else. I like the ideas of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > causing a weak area. > Chris I have seen one break on a '55 coupe in SB2002, on the dragstrip. But you bring up a good point Bo. Except for a fortunate few, none one knows what our cars/trucks have been subjected to prior to us buying them.(IE the 300k mile Hawk and your T-cab). I bought a flanged axle conversion kit for my '59 Lark. Do I think my 259 2bbl Lark will ripped the flanged axles apart?? I doubt it. But it will make accessing the brakes easier, the bearings are new, and a lot of time and effort went into making these kits available. Part of it is supporting the effort to bring new options, parts wise to the hobby. Plus maybe someday, I'll get a turbo charger on the 259. > Sonny, > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Bo > I have seen one break on a '55 coupe in SB2002, on the dragstrip. But you bring up a good point Bo. > Except for a fortunate few, none one knows what our cars/trucks have been subjected to prior to us buying them.(IE the 300k mile Hawk and your T-cab). > I bought a flanged axle conversion kit for my '59 Lark. Do I think my 259 2bbl Lark will ripped the flanged axles apart?? I doubt it. > But it will make accessing the brakes easier, the bearings are new, and a lot of time and effort went into making these kits available. Part of it is supporting the effort to bring new options, parts wise to the hobby. Right on! The new flanged axle setup will put us high performance oriented Studebaker guys on par with the 9 inch ford guys, (lighter and just as tough). The new flanged axle setups are a super addition to Studebakering! > Plus maybe someday, I'll get a turbo charger on the 259. I suuuuure hope that ya do!! SignatureSonny http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/sdc_forum/default.asp http://RacingStudebakers.com Thanks Bo, I think you've said it as straight and as honest as possible. They're old cars and yes, you can expect things to fail, especially if it is/was pounded or not serviced properly/at all. Of course, remembering that this can be applied to ANY vehicle. No need, none what-so-ever, to panic, or if a fella is prone to panic, get the flanged axles, (which I think ARE a hell of a great thing for our Studebakers), or, (and as much as I hate to ask it, it has to be asked, although without any malice), mebbe old cars isn't really the hobby that a person who is prone to worry should be in? SignatureSonny http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/sdc_forum/default.asp http://RacingStudebakers.com > Sonny, > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Bo Sonny, you are a real piece of work, thanks for dropping back in a giving me a few of giggles with some of your comments. It was getting too quite around here anyway, having you and StudeBob drop back in was refreshing. . > Sonny wrote: > (and as much as I hate to > ask it, it has to be asked, although without any malice), mebbe old cars > isn't really the hobby that a person who is prone to worry should be in? SignatureJP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 Challenger (Green Wrapper) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2 62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div) 56 Golden Hawk 50 Commander Coupe Tanks John, nice mixin' it up a little again. <G> See ya at York! SignatureSonny http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/sdc_forum/default.asp http://RacingStudebakers.com > Sonny, you are a real piece of work, thanks for dropping back in a > giving me a few of giggles with some of your comments. It was getting [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > ask it, it has to be asked, although without any malice), mebbe old cars > > isn't really the hobby that a person who is prone to worry should be in? That I get this warm and fuzzy feeling "here" when y'all blow up at one another. It reminds me of being a kid, and hanging out by the Adult table listening to my great uncles argue about, well just about anything. Just don't be like my uncle Frank, who blew a gasket, and had a fatal coronary, all while arguing over canasta points. SignatureWTF is Oujdeivß? http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3762&version=kjv to contact me try Oudeis via softhome.net Same reason people watch Jerry Springer et al. Bob40 And American Chopper. Jeff DeWitt > Same reason people watch Jerry Springer et al. > > Bob40 I remember quite clearly back in the early 60s when I was accelerating my '57 Golden Hawk with my typical msiguided entusiasm and the left wheel came off. Chewed up the wheel well a bit and the local Studebaker garage fixed it as I did not do major maintenance at that time in my life. I was also not a slave to routine preventative maintenance so who knows when the bearing had been packed last. More recently I had a rear axle snap, this time on a Lotus Elan, left side again. This is a rather common occurance for the Elans and the popular cure or at least a lessening of this failure is to smooth and radius the abrupt edges on the keyway, especially at the inner terminus of the keyway slot, that is thought to be the point where stress risers propagate. |
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