Car Forum / Antique and Collectibles / Studebaker / March 2005
The answer to high gas prices??
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Richard Lawler - 21 Mar 2005 23:17 GMT The more I find out about ethanol as alternative fuel, the more I am convinced that this will be the fuel of the future. At least to those of us that are interested in driving cars powered by IC engines
http://www.alcohol4fuel.com/id1.html
Richard Lawler
'57 1/2 ton Transtar '51 2dr Champion
Richard Lawler - 21 Mar 2005 23:19 GMT Now tell me Studebaker wasn't ahead of their time!!!
Richard Lawler
'57 1/2 ton Transtar '51 2dr Champion
Mike Williams - 23 Mar 2005 01:46 GMT We already have the ethanol fuel available here in good ole IL. Its a fuel called E-85 and both my 2001 Caravan and my Taurus are set up to burn it. I believe its 75% Ethanol and 25% gas. I have tried it and it did lower my gas mileage but not to 15mpg as claimed in that article and it was diluted by the 5 or so gallons of fuel I had in the tank.. It is only available at about ten places right now and I have no knowledge as to the production costs. It does sell for about 15 cents a gal less than dino fuel. Stations that convert a pump to the E-85 are eligible for a sizeable reinbursement from the State. Of course we grow a lot of corn and its going to be grown whether it becomes cow feed or car feed. Of course just about all the fuel we can buy is at least 10% ethanol.
> Now tell me Studebaker wasn't ahead of their time!!! > > Richard Lawler > > '57 1/2 ton Transtar > '51 2dr Champion bob40 - 23 Mar 2005 02:13 GMT Do you have the one pump exemption in Illlinois,Mike? In Minnesota station operators can have one pump with ethanol free premium for the vintage car/mororcycle/snowmobile/chain saw crowd.
Bob40
Mike Williams - 23 Mar 2005 02:41 GMT Not in the Chicago area. All pumps are 10% ethanol. Downstate some stations have an ethanol free pump. It is usually the lower octane pumps though, not the premium pumps.
> Do you have the one pump exemption in Illlinois,Mike? > In Minnesota station operators can have one pump with ethanol free premium > for the vintage car/mororcycle/snowmobile/chain saw crowd. > > Bob40 Ron Butts - 21 Mar 2005 23:32 GMT Why don't you start running your 57 on nothing but ethanol for the next 6 months and at the end of that time give us an update as to pluses or minuses of using that alternative fuel <G>
> The more I find out about ethanol as alternative fuel, the more I am > convinced that this will be the fuel of the future. At least to those [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > '57 1/2 ton Transtar > '51 2dr Champion Richard Lawler - 22 Mar 2005 00:00 GMT It sounds as though you have some insight as to what those results might be. Care to share? I don't have any experience with running ethanol as an alternative fuel, but something has got to give. I don't know what gas prices are like where you're living, but here in So. Oregon premium is at about $2.40 per/gal, and we paid $2.69 in Ca. this weekend. If gas isn't that high were you are right now, don't worry it will be soon enough. I am all for a better answer than ethanol that will allow me (and others who are interested) to keep driving Studebakers with their original engines in them. Like I said, if there is a better idea, I'd love to hear it. I am truly amazed that what seems to be the one issue that could unite all Americans (energy independence) isn't even a blip on the political radar right now. Richard Lawler
'57 1/2 ton Transtar '51 2dr Champion
Ron Butts - 22 Mar 2005 00:49 GMT Richard If gas prices are, let's say for sake of argument, $1.50 on Monday morning and on Monday evening the were raised to $1.70. Well now everyone is pissing and moaning about the price gouging by the gas stations, On Wednesday morning the prices are lowered to $1.60 and everyone says great, the price of gas has come down and they are fat and happy. What the don't seem to realize is the fact that they are paying 10 cents more a gallon than they did 2 days ago. Talk about sheep. We as consumers and the motoring public have the ability to bring the price down. All we have to do as consumers in this country is to unite as one major buying power (which by the way will never happen) and boycot one national brand of gas for 30 days and put the message out that if the prices are not brought down this will continue because we will target all major brands on a thirty day rotating basis until they get the message. How long do think it will take before the stock holders start to ask what in the hell is going on with their portfolios? But like I said it ain't gonna happen. BTW, if you run ethanol, stock up on fuel pumps and carb kits and put a cable on your distributor to run inside so that you can adjust your timing as you drive just like the Model Ts.
> It sounds as though you have some insight as to what those results > might be. Care to share? I don't have any experience with running [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > '57 1/2 ton Transtar > '51 2dr Champion Grumpy au Contraire - 22 Mar 2005 02:45 GMT Won't work... all gas stocks are pooled. The days of bran name from the ground/refinery/distributor/retailer have gone the way of the dodo bird.
What might toss a scare in the producers would be a national speed limit of 50 mph...
JT
Ron Butts wrote:
> Richard > If gas prices are, let's say for sake of argument, $1.50 on Monday morning [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > '57 1/2 ton Transtar > > '51 2dr Champion Robert Black - 22 Mar 2005 00:54 GMT The energy equation,energy to produce=energy in fuel is still a little outta whack but if you had access to some kind of cheap renewable fuel it sure is interesting,on a smsll scale at least. Rigging up a still large enough to make the fuel for your own personal use wouldn't be that difficult.Like it says in the site especially if you can scavange things like a boiler and plumbing parts. Ive seen stills before,but not for fuel(g)
> It sounds as though you have some insight as to what those results > might be. Care to share? I don't have any experience with running [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > '57 1/2 ton Transtar > '51 2dr Champion bob40 - 22 Mar 2005 01:28 GMT http://www.minnesotavotes.org/Comment.aspx?ID=8762&ActionID=131854
Bob40
Dexter - 22 Mar 2005 02:39 GMT EXCELLANT ARTICLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> http://www.minnesotavotes.org/Comment.aspx?ID=8762&ActionID=131854 > > Bob40 Richard Lawler - 22 Mar 2005 02:50 GMT That is an interesting article, but at the bottom of it I think it should read, "Being able to give the finger to OPEC, PRICELESS!!!!"
Richard Lawler
'57 1/2 ton Transtar '51 2dr Champion
Mike - 22 Mar 2005 00:44 GMT I was in Brazil, about 15 years ago. Almost all the cars in the country were running on 85% alcohol. It was government mandated and subsidized. The alcohol came from low grade sugar cane. The program was considered to be failing because the price of oil hadn't gone up as anticipated. The US was blamed for keeping the price artificially low. At the time VW, Ford, and GM were manufacturing cars in country to run on alcohol. Brazil was importing oil, partly for plastics; and exporting gasoline. I found a "rule of thumb" icw modifying motorcycles, to run on alcohol. If an engine is set up, by raising the compression ratio and modifying the fuel system to deliver more fuel, you can get 50% more power. You can also expect to use twice as much fuel! Engines run cooler. Starting is harder. Mike M.
Dan White - 22 Mar 2005 03:12 GMT What is also interesting about the Brazilian fuel situation is that they have made an additive(s) that allow and ethanol based fuel to run even in diesel engines!
As far a subsidizing the manufacture of ethanol, which would you prefer the money staying here in the US or going to countries like Iran and Venezuela??? Think about it!
Dan White
> I was in Brazil, about 15 years ago. Almost all the cars in the > country were running on 85% alcohol. It was government mandated and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > cooler. Starting is harder. > Mike M. midlant@earthlink.net - 23 Mar 2005 07:36 GMT I worry about the poor lubrication properties of alcohol as compared with the usual diesel oil. We're talking high pressure as compared to car FI.
Karl
> What is also interesting about the Brazilian fuel situation is that > they have made an additive(s) that allow and ethanol based fuel to run [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > At the time VW, Ford, and GM were manufacturing cars in country to > > run on alcohol. Brazil was importing oil, partly for plastics; and
> > exporting gasoline. > > I found a "rule of thumb" icw modifying motorcycles, to run on > > alcohol. If an engine is set up, by raising the compression ratio and > > modifying the fuel system to deliver more fuel, you can get 50% more > > power. You can also expect to use twice as much fuel! Engines run
> > cooler. Starting is harder. > > Mike M. Dan White - 24 Mar 2005 02:29 GMT One of the local Philly AM stations this morning had an advertisement for BioDiesel! It was sponsored by the American Soy Bean Farmers Association.
Dan White
> I was in Brazil, about 15 years ago. Almost all the cars in the > country were running on 85% alcohol. It was government mandated and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > cooler. Starting is harder. > Mike M. Gordon Richmond - 24 Mar 2005 03:43 GMT You can burn straight vegetable oil in a Diesel; or even used fryer grease for that matter. There are many people doing just that. You have to start and shut down on petro-diesel (or bio-diesel) since the straight oil is too viscous to go through the injectors when cold.
Bio-diesel is trans-esterified veggie or animal oil, and has comparable properties to petro-diesel.
I doubt oil will stay on the high side of $50/bbl for very long, because at that price, it makes economic sense to start manufacturing synfuel from coal, and OPEC is afraid of that.
Gord Richmond
--Shiva-- - 24 Mar 2005 06:18 GMT Microsoft made a game for a high end computer called Train Simulator.. there is a large web site and everything related to rail is discussed..
mention was made of the fuel economy of the big diesel road engines... one type, under a full draw can take a gallon of fuel every 15 SECONDS.. now this sounds bad.. BUT.. it was compared to the common SUV.. (BTW, average fuel draw is in the range of 150 or so gallons per hour) (sitting idling, doing nothing-is 25 gallons per hour)
for the same fuel efficiency/economy, your 7MPG SUV SHOULD GET something like 250 MPG..the trains are far more efficient.. it was also figured that the average train gets something like 1 gallon of fuel, per ton, per 400 miles. your car cant do that..
--Shiva--
oldcarfart - 24 Mar 2005 08:58 GMT Now that's just friggin' great, now we will smell soy sauce emissions vs. diesel emissions and we will all walk around hungry and keep feeding until we blow up! It's a commy Chinese plot that we Americans self-distruct! KARL! Where are those damn black helicopters at?????????????
midlant@earthlink.net - 24 Mar 2005 09:32 GMT I can hear their silence right above my house as we speak.
Karl
John Poulos - 21 Mar 2005 23:32 GMT It takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than it provides. It's only low in cost because taxpayers pay billions in subsidies to farmers,
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/031128.html
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> The more I find out about ethanol as alternative fuel, the more I am > convinced that this will be the fuel of the future. At least to those [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > '57 1/2 ton Transtar > '51 2dr Champion
 Signature JP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 Challenger (Green Wrapper) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2 62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div) 56 Golden Hawk 55 Speedster 50 2R 10 truck
Richard Lawler - 21 Mar 2005 23:43 GMT An interesting view of it, but it seems that the guy calculating that it takes more energy to make it than it produces assumed that the tractor plowing the corn was burning fossil fuel and that the still was being run by natural gas. Those are big assumptions. While that may be true in the current scheme of things, what about the future where the tractor may run on ethanol and the still is fueled by things that are renewable as well. Again, for those of us that like our internal combustion engines and are serious about the U.S. becoming energy independent I think this is going to be the answer. If someone has a better plan I'd love to hear it.
Richard Lawler
'57 1/2 ton Transtar '51 2dr Champion
Fieronut - 21 Mar 2005 23:59 GMT >If someone has a better plan I'd love to hear it. Hydrogen?
John
Richard Lawler - 22 Mar 2005 00:10 GMT A utopian pipe dream if you ask me. Besides, I'm looking for the answer that will allow us to drive Studebakers the way that they have been driven since they were new. For more info on why hydrogen is not viable (especially for private individuals) see:
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/generaltech/article/0,20967,927469,00.html
Richard Lawler
'57 1/2 ton Transtar '51 2dr Champion
John Poulos - 22 Mar 2005 01:39 GMT Gas and oil prices are still low adjusted for inflation and a fraction of what most countrys pay. Oil will have to go for over $90 barrel to catch up with the previous high. There is enough fossil fuel around to last for our Studebakers, although IC engines may be banned or regulated for limited use in 20-30 years.
> A utopian pipe dream if you ask me. Besides, I'm looking for the > answer that will allow us to drive Studebakers the way that they have [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > '57 1/2 ton Transtar > '51 2dr Champion
 Signature JP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 Challenger (Green Wrapper) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2 62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div) 56 Golden Hawk 55 Speedster 50 2R 10 truck
Studedude - 22 Mar 2005 01:55 GMT First the study that shows that it takes 5 quarts to produce one gallon of ethonal is flawed. The study takes all kind of things into consideration, like the amount of energy it takes to smelt the iron to produce a tractor. Second of all burning ethonal in cars is a joke, it wastes the potential energy in the corn. Third hydrogen is the way to go, hydrogen produced from ethanol. At the University of Minnesota they have been able to make a converter that converts 130% of the energy in ethanol into hydrogen, to get the 130% it also extracts hydrogen from the water found in the corn.
Nick "The stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones."
Pat Drnec - 22 Mar 2005 00:38 GMT As soon as you (or anybody else) figure out a method to refine hydrogen that doesn't take more energy than you get out of burning it, I'll be all for it.
Hydrogen is a smoke screen, our illustrious Leader can look green by supporting it while his oil company masters are gauranteed that oil consumption will continue unabated.
Hybrid technology gives a solution now, but as it results ultimately in lower profits for the oil companies it is not being championed by the Leader.
>>If someone has a better plan I'd love to hear it. > > Hydrogen? > > John
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"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -- WOW--What a Ride!!!" ----- Unknown
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Mark Dunning - 22 Mar 2005 13:13 GMT there's a money pit
> >If someone has a better plan I'd love to hear it. > > Hydrogen? > > John John Poulos - 22 Mar 2005 01:28 GMT I may loose my tree hugger reputation, but I've never seen s study that shows you can produce a gallon of ethanol without using 5 quarts to make it. The fact that we are using billions of tax`dollars to support production of a product that is a net energy waster is just nuts IMHO.
Maybe someday they'll figure out a way to do it better, just not yet.
> An interesting view of it, but it seems that the guy calculating that > it takes more energy to make it than it produces assumed that the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > '57 1/2 ton Transtar > '51 2dr Champion
 Signature JP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 Challenger (Green Wrapper) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2 62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div) 56 Golden Hawk 55 Speedster 50 2R 10 truck
Alex M - 22 Mar 2005 02:45 GMT Tractors and big rigs need diesel engines for efficiency. Alcohol has no lubricating qualities and would not protect the injection pump.
> An interesting view of it, but it seems that the guy calculating that > it takes more energy to make it than it produces assumed that the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > '57 1/2 ton Transtar > '51 2dr Champion Richard Lawler - 22 Mar 2005 03:08 GMT http://www.matr.net/print-13313.html Richard Lawler
'57 1/2 ton Transtar '51 2dr Champion
Dan White - 22 Mar 2005 03:38 GMT There are a lot of different materials that can be used to make ethanol besides corn:
http://www.bcintlcorp.com/technologyprint.htm
http://www.energy.ca.gov/reports/ 2001-04-03_500-01-002+002A.PDF
Dan White
Mark Dunning - 22 Mar 2005 13:18 GMT Tractors & big rigs & trains can run on external combustion engines ("steam "or stirling type) w/ big flywheels. The engineering just has not been done yet because the cost is "too high"
Stupidest thing I have ever seen is an Interstate Highway with 10,000 big trucks all running on the same road heading the same direction for the same 2,000 miles. All of them running internal combustion engines that get what? 35% efficiency? out of the fuel they burn.
Think of trains w/ containers and small trucks at spurs and computerized connections and disconnections, as well as computerized tracking of each parcel.
Mark (Thinking Big) Dunning
> Tractors and big rigs need diesel engines for efficiency. Alcohol has no > lubricating qualities and would not protect the injection pump. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> '57 1/2 ton Transtar >> '51 2dr Champion oldcarfart - 23 Mar 2005 13:09 GMT Trucks vs. trains, I am convinced it's politics, maybe union politics but common sense does not prevail.
Calvin (working on methane power) Lowell
1949commander - 23 Mar 2005 14:46 GMT If we are going to reduce our energy dependence we need to focus first on diesel engines. They already are 30% -50% more fuel efficient per work produced, which better than what Hybrids get in real life driving. Diesel combustion is much more controllable so more complete combustion means more power and companies like Cummins Diesel have shown that it is possible to make diesels very clean without add on components. Just adding a percentage of alternative bio-diesel even cleans the combustion further. The real plus is that today's diesels create lots of low end torque and require less RPM's which means less friction and better efficiency. Also with 6 speed automatic transmissions the acceleration is great since it allows the use of torque more effectively. We can thank General Motors for the demise of our rail system; they realized they could make a lot more money selling tens of thousands of trucks vs. a few hundred locomotives. Plus we have a subsidized highway system but the railroads had to build their own at their expense, plus maintain them. Had we subsidized track building, trains would be much more efficient at delivering goods. Plus modern steam turbine technology would make trains capable of running on anything that could be burnt. This is what happens when the government gets involved in anything. Government=less efficiency. Gasoline won out in the early days because its overall efficiency was better than all other technologies. In that era the government was more hands off. Each different technology was equally being developed. Hybrids are the biggest government scam ever they cost the overall economy and environment more than their savings. Plus we are adding to the problem of creating more hazardous heavy metal batteries that must be dealt with when they are no good. Studebaker had the idea in 1939, to build a car to do its job, as efficiently as possible you must design it from the ground up and not share its parts with larger vehicles. This platform sharing that all companies are doing is costing us a fortune since it makes all cars heavier which is a big waste in fuel. And really doesn't save the company any real money. I also hope that everyone realizes that for us to grow enough fuel we will have to make everyone that's not a farmer sell their house in the suburbs and move into high-rise apartments so we can convert all those subdivisions into corn/bean fields again!!!
George Mills - 22 Mar 2005 17:44 GMT Too right, John--it isn't "the answer". I have been following this idea for about 30 years, even since Richard Whatshisname, the Maple Leaf bacon ads guy, was distilling alcohol denatured with a few drops of diesel to run in his Chevette. On a commercial level it makes little sense, especially if you are growing and using food-grade crops. The benefit is in the small scale--where you take "waste" such as rotten apples, spoiled potatoes, grape skins from wineries, and instead of composting it or using as animal feed directly, you ferment it first (and use the "cake" left over as animal feed--brewery mash has been used for that for a long time, and it is more efficient for animals in that form as it has a higher percentage of protein). So, it isn't realistically a complete solution, just a partial one, just as Biodiesel is also limited. However, any reduction in the net outflow of $$$ for imported oil would be a benefit for the USA, financially and geopolitically.
Jim Bartley on PEI-which is flirting with windpower and soon, a biodiesel plant, and a "hydrogen village".
> It takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than it > provides. It's only low in cost because taxpayers pay billions in [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > '57 1/2 ton Transtar > > '51 2dr Champion
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