Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
HomeAnnouncements
Discussion Groups
By Brand
BMWChevroletDodgeFordGMHondaLexusMercedes-BenzNissanPeugeotToyotaVolkswagenOther Brands
By Topic
4x4 CarsRVsDrivingMaintenance & RepairCar AudioCollectible Cars
Country Specific
Australian ForumsUK Forums
ArticlesAuto InsuranceBuyingCars & TechnologyMaintenanceMiscellaneousSafety
DMV Resources
Related Topics
MotorcyclesBoatsMore Topics ...

Car Forum / Antique and Collectibles / Studebaker / March 2005

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

The answer to high gas prices??

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Richard Lawler - 21 Mar 2005 23:17 GMT
The more I find out about ethanol as alternative fuel, the more I am
convinced that this will be the fuel of the future. At least to those
of us that are interested in driving cars powered by IC engines

http://www.alcohol4fuel.com/id1.html

Richard Lawler

'57 1/2 ton Transtar
'51 2dr Champion
Richard Lawler - 21 Mar 2005 23:19 GMT
Now tell me Studebaker wasn't ahead of their time!!!

Richard Lawler

'57 1/2 ton Transtar
'51 2dr Champion
Mike Williams - 23 Mar 2005 01:46 GMT
We already have the ethanol fuel available here in good ole IL. Its a fuel
called E-85 and both my 2001 Caravan and my Taurus are set up to burn it. I
believe its 75% Ethanol and 25% gas. I have tried it and it did lower my gas
mileage but not to 15mpg as claimed in that article and it was diluted by
the 5 or so gallons of fuel I had in the tank.. It is only available at
about ten places right now and I have no knowledge as to the production
costs. It does sell for about 15 cents a gal less than dino fuel. Stations
that convert a pump to the E-85 are eligible for a sizeable reinbursement
from the State. Of course we grow a lot of corn and its going to be grown
whether it becomes cow feed or car feed. Of course just about all the fuel
we can buy is at least 10% ethanol.

> Now tell me Studebaker wasn't ahead of their time!!!
>
> Richard Lawler
>
> '57 1/2 ton Transtar
> '51 2dr Champion
bob40 - 23 Mar 2005 02:13 GMT
Do you have the one pump exemption in Illlinois,Mike?
In Minnesota station operators can have one pump with ethanol free premium
for the vintage car/mororcycle/snowmobile/chain saw crowd.

Bob40
Mike Williams - 23 Mar 2005 02:41 GMT
Not in the Chicago area. All pumps are 10% ethanol. Downstate some stations
have an ethanol free pump. It is usually the lower octane pumps though, not
the premium pumps.

> Do you have the one pump exemption in Illlinois,Mike?
> In Minnesota station operators can have one pump with ethanol free premium
> for the vintage car/mororcycle/snowmobile/chain saw crowd.
>
> Bob40
Ron  Butts - 21 Mar 2005 23:32 GMT
Why don't you start running your 57 on nothing but ethanol for the next 6
months and at the end of that time give us an update as to pluses or minuses
of using that alternative fuel <G>

> The more I find out about ethanol as alternative fuel, the more I am
> convinced that this will be the fuel of the future. At least to those
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> '57 1/2 ton Transtar
> '51 2dr Champion
Richard Lawler - 22 Mar 2005 00:00 GMT
It sounds as though you have some insight as to what those results
might be. Care to share? I don't have any experience with running
ethanol as an alternative fuel, but something has got to give. I don't
know what gas prices are like where you're living, but here in So.
Oregon premium is at about $2.40 per/gal, and we paid $2.69 in Ca.
this weekend. If gas isn't that high were you are right now, don't
worry it will be soon enough. I am all for a better answer than
ethanol that will allow me (and others who are interested) to keep
driving Studebakers with their original engines in them. Like I said,
if there is a better idea, I'd love to hear it. I am truly amazed that
what seems to be the one issue that could unite all Americans (energy
independence) isn't even a blip on the political radar right now.
Richard Lawler

'57 1/2 ton Transtar
'51 2dr Champion
Ron  Butts - 22 Mar 2005 00:49 GMT
Richard
If gas prices are, let's say for sake of argument, $1.50 on Monday morning
and on Monday evening the were raised to $1.70.  Well now everyone is
pissing and moaning about the price gouging by the gas stations,  On
Wednesday morning the prices are lowered to $1.60 and everyone says great,
the price of gas has come down and they are fat and happy.  What the don't
seem to realize is the fact that they are paying 10 cents more a gallon than
they did 2 days ago.  Talk about sheep.  We as consumers and the motoring
public have the ability to bring the price down.  All we have to do as
consumers in this country is to unite as one major buying power (which by
the way will never happen) and boycot one national brand of gas for 30 days
and put the message out that if the prices are not brought down this will
continue  because we will target all major brands on a thirty day rotating
basis until they get the message.   How long do think it will take before
the stock holders start to ask what in the hell is going on with their
portfolios?  But like I said it ain't gonna happen.  BTW, if you run
ethanol, stock up on fuel pumps and carb kits and put a cable on your
distributor to run inside so that you can adjust your timing as you drive
just like the Model Ts.

> It sounds as though you have some insight as to what those results
> might be. Care to share? I don't have any experience with running
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> '57 1/2 ton Transtar
> '51 2dr Champion
Grumpy au Contraire - 22 Mar 2005 02:45 GMT
Won't work...  all gas stocks are pooled.  The days of bran name from
the ground/refinery/distributor/retailer have gone the way of the dodo bird.

What might toss a scare in the producers would be a national speed limit
of 50 mph...

JT

Ron Butts wrote:

> Richard
> If gas prices are, let's say for sake of argument, $1.50 on Monday morning
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> > '57 1/2 ton Transtar
> > '51 2dr Champion
Robert Black - 22 Mar 2005 00:54 GMT
The energy equation,energy to produce=energy in fuel is still a little outta
whack but if you had access to some kind of cheap renewable fuel it sure is
interesting,on a smsll scale at least.
Rigging up a still large enough to make the fuel for your own personal use
wouldn't be that difficult.Like it says in the site especially if you can
scavange things like a boiler and plumbing parts.
Ive seen stills before,but not for fuel(g)
> It sounds as though you have some insight as to what those results
> might be. Care to share? I don't have any experience with running
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> '57 1/2 ton Transtar
> '51 2dr Champion
bob40 - 22 Mar 2005 01:28 GMT
http://www.minnesotavotes.org/Comment.aspx?ID=8762&ActionID=131854

Bob40
Dexter - 22 Mar 2005 02:39 GMT
EXCELLANT ARTICLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> http://www.minnesotavotes.org/Comment.aspx?ID=8762&ActionID=131854
>
> Bob40
Richard Lawler - 22 Mar 2005 02:50 GMT
That is an interesting article, but at the bottom of it I think it
should read, "Being able to give the finger to OPEC, PRICELESS!!!!"

Richard Lawler

'57 1/2 ton Transtar
'51 2dr Champion
Mike - 22 Mar 2005 00:44 GMT
 I was in Brazil, about 15 years ago.  Almost all the cars in the country
were running on 85% alcohol.  It was  government mandated and subsidized.
The alcohol came from low grade sugar cane.   The program was considered to
be failing because the price of oil hadn't gone up as anticipated.  The US
was blamed for keeping the price artificially low.
 At the time VW, Ford, and GM were manufacturing cars in country to run on
alcohol.  Brazil was importing oil, partly for plastics; and exporting
gasoline.
 I found a "rule of  thumb" icw modifying  motorcycles, to run on alcohol.
If  an engine is set up, by raising the compression ratio and modifying the
fuel system to deliver more fuel, you can get 50% more power.  You can also
expect to use twice as much fuel!  Engines run cooler.  Starting is harder.
                                                Mike M.

Dan White - 22 Mar 2005 03:12 GMT
What is also interesting about the Brazilian fuel situation is that
they have made an additive(s) that allow and ethanol based fuel to run
even in diesel engines!

As far a subsidizing the manufacture of ethanol, which would you prefer
the money staying here in the US or going to countries like Iran and
Venezuela???  Think about it!

Dan White

>   I was in Brazil, about 15 years ago.  Almost all the cars in the
> country were running on 85% alcohol.  It was  government mandated and
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> cooler.  Starting is harder.
>                                                  Mike M.
midlant@earthlink.net - 23 Mar 2005 07:36 GMT
I worry about the poor lubrication properties of alcohol as compared
with the usual diesel oil. We're talking high pressure as compared to
car FI.

Karl
> What is also interesting about the Brazilian fuel situation is that
> they have made an additive(s) that allow and ethanol based fuel to run
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> >   At the time VW, Ford, and GM were manufacturing cars in country to
> > run on alcohol.  Brazil was importing oil, partly for plastics; and

> > exporting gasoline.
> >   I found a "rule of  thumb" icw modifying  motorcycles, to run on
> > alcohol. If  an engine is set up, by raising the compression ratio and
> > modifying the fuel system to deliver more fuel, you can get 50% more
> > power.  You can also expect to use twice as much fuel!  Engines run

> > cooler.  Starting is harder.
> >                                                  Mike M.
Dan White - 24 Mar 2005 02:29 GMT
One of the local Philly AM stations this morning had an advertisement
for  BioDiesel!  It was sponsored by the American Soy Bean Farmers
Association.

Dan White

>   I was in Brazil, about 15 years ago.  Almost all the cars in the
> country were running on 85% alcohol.  It was  government mandated and
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> cooler.  Starting is harder.
>                                                  Mike M.
Gordon Richmond - 24 Mar 2005 03:43 GMT
You can burn straight vegetable oil in a Diesel; or even used fryer
grease for that matter. There are many people doing just that. You
have to start and shut down on petro-diesel (or bio-diesel) since the
straight oil is too viscous to go through the injectors when cold.

Bio-diesel is trans-esterified veggie or animal oil, and has
comparable properties to petro-diesel.

I doubt oil will stay on the high side of $50/bbl for very long,
because at that price, it makes economic sense to start manufacturing
synfuel from coal, and OPEC is afraid of that.

Gord Richmond
--Shiva-- - 24 Mar 2005 06:18 GMT
Microsoft made a game for a high end computer called Train
Simulator..
there is a large web site and everything related to rail is
discussed..

mention was made of the fuel economy of the big diesel road
engines...
one type, under a full draw can take a gallon of fuel every 15
SECONDS.. now this sounds bad.. BUT.. it was compared to the
common SUV.. (BTW, average fuel draw is in the range of 150 or so
gallons per hour) (sitting idling, doing nothing-is 25 gallons
per hour)

for the same fuel efficiency/economy, your 7MPG SUV SHOULD GET
something like 250 MPG..the trains are far more efficient..
it was also figured that the average train gets something like 1
gallon of fuel, per ton, per 400 miles. your car cant do that..

    --Shiva--
   
   
oldcarfart - 24 Mar 2005 08:58 GMT
Now that's just friggin' great, now we will smell soy sauce emissions
vs. diesel emissions and we will all walk around hungry and keep
feeding until we blow up!  It's a commy Chinese plot that we Americans
self-distruct!  KARL!  Where are those damn black helicopters
at?????????????
midlant@earthlink.net - 24 Mar 2005 09:32 GMT
I can hear their silence right above my house as we speak.

Karl
John Poulos - 21 Mar 2005 23:32 GMT
   It takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than it
provides. It's only low in cost because taxpayers pay billions in
subsidies to farmers,

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/031128.html

.
> The more I find out about ethanol as alternative fuel, the more I am
> convinced that this will be the fuel of the future. At least to those
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> '57 1/2 ton Transtar
> '51 2dr Champion

Signature

JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 Challenger (Green Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2
62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div)
56 Golden Hawk
55 Speedster
50 2R 10 truck

Richard Lawler - 21 Mar 2005 23:43 GMT
An interesting view of it, but it seems that the guy calculating that
it takes more energy to make it than it produces assumed that the
tractor plowing the corn was burning fossil fuel and that the still
was being run by natural gas. Those are big assumptions. While that
may be true in the current scheme of things, what about the future
where the tractor may run on ethanol and the still is fueled by things
that are renewable as well. Again, for those of us that like our
internal combustion engines and are serious about the U.S. becoming
energy independent I think this is going to be the answer. If someone
has a better plan I'd love to hear it.

Richard Lawler

'57 1/2 ton Transtar
'51 2dr Champion
Fieronut - 21 Mar 2005 23:59 GMT
>If someone has a better plan I'd love to hear it.

Hydrogen?

John
Richard Lawler - 22 Mar 2005 00:10 GMT
A utopian pipe dream if you ask me. Besides, I'm looking for the
answer that will allow us to drive Studebakers the way that they have
been driven since they were new. For more info on why hydrogen is not
viable (especially for private individuals) see:

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/generaltech/article/0,20967,927469,00.html

Richard Lawler

'57 1/2 ton Transtar
'51 2dr Champion
John Poulos - 22 Mar 2005 01:39 GMT
   Gas and oil prices are still low adjusted for inflation and a
fraction of what most countrys pay. Oil will have to go for over $90
barrel to catch up with the previous high.
   There is enough fossil fuel around to last for our Studebakers,
although IC engines may be banned or regulated for limited use in 20-30
years.

> A utopian pipe dream if you ask me. Besides, I'm looking for the
> answer that will allow us to drive Studebakers the way that they have
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> '57 1/2 ton Transtar
> '51 2dr Champion

Signature

JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 Challenger (Green Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2
62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div)
56 Golden Hawk
55 Speedster
50 2R 10 truck

Studedude - 22 Mar 2005 01:55 GMT
First the study that shows that it takes 5 quarts to produce one gallon
of ethonal is flawed.  The study takes all kind of things into
consideration, like the amount of energy it takes to smelt the iron to
produce a tractor.  Second of all burning ethonal in cars is a joke, it
wastes the potential energy in the corn.  Third hydrogen is the way to
go, hydrogen produced from ethanol.  At the University of Minnesota
they have been able to make a converter that converts 130% of the
energy in ethanol into hydrogen, to get the 130% it also extracts
hydrogen from the water found in the corn.

Nick
"The stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones."
Pat Drnec - 22 Mar 2005 00:38 GMT
As soon as you (or anybody else) figure out a method to refine hydrogen
that doesn't take more energy than you get out of burning it, I'll be
all for it.

Hydrogen is a smoke screen, our illustrious Leader can look green by
supporting it while his oil company masters are gauranteed that oil
consumption will continue unabated.

Hybrid technology gives a solution now, but as it results ultimately in
lower profits for the oil companies it is not being championed by the
Leader.

>>If someone has a better plan I'd love to hear it.
>
> Hydrogen?
>
> John

Signature

Remove all the x's to email.

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving
safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in
broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
-- WOW--What a Ride!!!" ----- Unknown

1953 Starlight Coupe
1954 Starlight Coupe R1/4-speed
1958 Silver Hawk
1960 Frua Italia Larks (2 - they're here!)
1962 Lark VI
1963 Avanti R2 R4324
1963 Lark Cruiser (R2 3/4 clone in progress)
1963 GT Hawk
1963 Daytona Wagonaire
1964 Cruiser (Survivor)
1956 2E7
2000 Boxster S
2000 Ducati 748
2002 Jeep Overland
2004 Ducati Monster 1000
http://homepage.mac.com/pdrnec/PhotoAlbum81.html

Mark Dunning - 22 Mar 2005 13:13 GMT
there's a money pit

> >If someone has a better plan I'd love to hear it.
>
> Hydrogen?
>
> John
John Poulos - 22 Mar 2005 01:28 GMT
   I may loose my tree hugger reputation, but I've never seen s study
that shows you can produce a gallon of ethanol without using 5 quarts to
make it. The fact that we are using billions of tax`dollars to support
production of a product that is a net energy waster is just nuts IMHO.

    Maybe someday they'll figure out a way to do it better, just not yet.

> An interesting view of it, but it seems that the guy calculating that
> it takes more energy to make it than it produces assumed that the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> '57 1/2 ton Transtar
> '51 2dr Champion

Signature

JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 Challenger (Green Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2
62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div)
56 Golden Hawk
55 Speedster
50 2R 10 truck

Alex M - 22 Mar 2005 02:45 GMT
Tractors and big rigs  need diesel engines for efficiency. Alcohol has
no lubricating qualities and would not protect the injection pump.

> An interesting view of it, but it seems that the guy calculating that
> it takes more energy to make it than it produces assumed that the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> '57 1/2 ton Transtar
> '51 2dr Champion
Richard Lawler - 22 Mar 2005 03:08 GMT
http://www.matr.net/print-13313.html
Richard Lawler

'57 1/2 ton Transtar
'51 2dr Champion
Dan White - 22 Mar 2005 03:38 GMT
There are a lot of different materials that can be used to make ethanol
besides corn:

http://www.bcintlcorp.com/technologyprint.htm

http://www.energy.ca.gov/reports/ 2001-04-03_500-01-002+002A.PDF

Dan White
Mark Dunning - 22 Mar 2005 13:18 GMT
Tractors & big rigs & trains can run on external combustion engines ("steam
"or stirling type) w/ big flywheels.
The engineering just has not been done yet because the cost is "too high"

Stupidest thing I have ever seen is an Interstate Highway with 10,000 big
trucks all running on the same road heading the same direction for the same
2,000 miles. All of them running internal combustion engines that get what?
35% efficiency? out of the fuel they burn.

Think of trains w/ containers and small trucks at spurs and computerized
connections and disconnections, as well as computerized tracking of each
parcel.

Mark (Thinking Big) Dunning

> Tractors and big rigs  need diesel engines for efficiency. Alcohol has no
> lubricating qualities and would not protect the injection pump.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>> '57 1/2 ton Transtar
>> '51 2dr Champion
oldcarfart - 23 Mar 2005 13:09 GMT
Trucks vs. trains, I am convinced it's politics, maybe union politics
but common sense does not prevail.

Calvin (working on methane power) Lowell
1949commander - 23 Mar 2005 14:46 GMT
If we are going to reduce our energy dependence we need to focus first
on diesel engines. They already are 30% -50% more fuel efficient per
work produced, which better than what Hybrids get in real life driving.
Diesel combustion is much more controllable so more complete combustion
means more power and companies like Cummins Diesel have shown that it
is possible to make diesels very clean without add on components. Just
adding a percentage of alternative bio-diesel even cleans the
combustion further. The real plus is that today's diesels create lots
of low end torque and require less RPM's which means less friction and
better efficiency. Also with 6 speed automatic transmissions the
acceleration is great since it allows the use of torque more
effectively. We can thank General Motors for the demise of our rail
system; they realized they could make a lot more money selling tens of
thousands of trucks vs. a few hundred locomotives. Plus we have a
subsidized highway system but the railroads had to build their own at
their expense, plus maintain them. Had we subsidized track building,
trains would be much more efficient at delivering goods. Plus modern
steam turbine technology would make trains capable of running on
anything that could be burnt. This is what happens when the government
gets involved in anything. Government=less efficiency. Gasoline won out
in the early days because its overall efficiency was better than all
other technologies. In that era the government was more hands off. Each
different technology was equally being developed. Hybrids are the
biggest government scam ever they cost the overall economy and
environment more than their savings. Plus we are adding to the problem
of creating more hazardous heavy metal batteries that must be dealt
with when they are no good. Studebaker had the idea in 1939, to build a
car to do its job, as efficiently as possible you must design it from
the ground up and not share its parts with larger vehicles. This
platform sharing that all companies are doing is costing us a fortune
since it makes all cars heavier which is a big waste in fuel. And
really doesn't save the company any real money. I also hope that
everyone realizes that for us to grow enough fuel we will have to make
everyone that's not a farmer sell their house in the suburbs and move
into high-rise apartments so we can convert all those subdivisions into
corn/bean fields again!!!
George Mills - 22 Mar 2005 17:44 GMT
Too right, John--it isn't "the answer". I have been following this idea for
about 30 years, even since Richard Whatshisname, the Maple Leaf bacon ads
guy, was distilling alcohol denatured with a few drops of diesel to run in
his Chevette.
On a commercial level it makes little sense, especially if you are growing
and using food-grade crops. The benefit is in the small scale--where you
take "waste" such as rotten apples, spoiled potatoes, grape skins from
wineries, and instead of composting it or using as animal feed directly, you
ferment it first (and use the "cake" left over as animal feed--brewery mash
has been used for that for a long time, and it is more efficient for animals
in that form as it has a higher percentage of protein).
So, it isn't realistically a complete solution, just a partial one, just as
Biodiesel is also limited. However, any reduction in the net outflow of $$$
for imported oil would be a benefit for the USA, financially and
geopolitically.

Jim Bartley on PEI-which is flirting with windpower and soon, a biodiesel
plant, and a "hydrogen village".

>     It takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than it
> provides. It's only low in cost because taxpayers pay billions in
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> > '57 1/2 ton Transtar
> > '51 2dr Champion
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.