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Car Forum / Antique and Collectibles / Studebaker / April 2005

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Ethanol Gas (E-85)

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Lee Aanderud - 08 Apr 2005 15:39 GMT
Anyone running E-85 (85% Ethanol, 15% Gasoline) in their Studebakers?  Or is
there any danger in running it in these older engines?  There's a gas
station just down the street from me that is offering it for $1.95/gal.
(regular unleaded is $2.13/gal.).  I ran two tanks of it in my Toyota two
weeks ago while up in ND and didn't notice any difference... if anything I
may have gotten better gas mileage on those two tanks.

Lee
oldcarfart - 08 Apr 2005 15:51 GMT
it will clean the residue from all fuel system components so any crap,
varnish, etc. in tank, lines, etc. will quickly fill filter, so carry
spares!
John Poulos - 08 Apr 2005 15:53 GMT
It will dissolve many fuel pump diaphragms and older rubber hoses. It's
amazing what it does to 40 year old filler neck hoses.

> it will clean the residue from all fuel system components so any crap,
> varnish, etc. in tank, lines, etc. will quickly fill filter, so carry
> spares!

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JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
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John Poulos - 08 Apr 2005 15:51 GMT
"Many U.S. automobiles manufactured since 1998 have been equipped to
enable them to run on either gasoline or E85, a mixture of 85% ethanol
and 15% gasoline. E85, however, is not yet widely available."

I would not use it in a older car, you may burn a valve or at least
destroy some rubber bits in the fuel system. Also, ethanol does not
produce as much power so you'll probably spend more than the small
savings in price because of the government subsidies.

> Anyone running E-85 (85% Ethanol, 15% Gasoline) in their Studebakers?  Or is
> there any danger in running it in these older engines?  There's a gas
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Lee

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JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 Challenger (Green Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
55 Speedster
50 2R 10 truck

John Poulos - 08 Apr 2005 15:59 GMT
Lee
  Found this on converting your engine to run on the stuff. You'll
loose 10% in fuel economy unless you do major mods, but you can convert.

http://www.alcohol4fuel.com/id26.html

> Anyone running E-85 (85% Ethanol, 15% Gasoline) in their Studebakers?  Or is
> there any danger in running it in these older engines?  There's a gas
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Lee

Signature

JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 Challenger (Green Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
55 Speedster
50 2R 10 truck

Richard Lawler - 08 Apr 2005 16:59 GMT
Neat website. <g>
Richard Lawler

'57 1/2 ton Transtar
'51 2dr Champion
N8N - 08 Apr 2005 16:15 GMT
> Anyone running E-85 (85% Ethanol, 15% Gasoline) in their Studebakers?
Or is
> there any danger in running it in these older engines?  There's a gas

> station just down the street from me that is offering it for $1.95/gal.
> (regular unleaded is $2.13/gal.).  I ran two tanks of it in my Toyota two
> weeks ago while up in ND and didn't notice any difference... if anything I
> may have gotten better gas mileage on those two tanks.
>
> Lee

I don't think it's that good a deal, fuel economy will drop as ethanol
doesn't have as many H or C atoms per unit volume as does regular
gasoline.  I know our "winter gas" has some kind of oxygen bearing
hydrocarbons in it and my gas mileage in the Porsche goes from low 20s
to 18 or 19 during the winter months.

nate
Lee Aanderud - 08 Apr 2005 16:30 GMT
That's strange because I swear my mileage actually went up a little during
those two tanks... not much but I know it didn't go down.  It was rated at
89 octane vs. 87 for regular unleaded and was the same price at the pump.

Lee

> I don't think it's that good a deal, fuel economy will drop as ethanol
> doesn't have as many H or C atoms per unit volume as does regular
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> nate
John Poulos - 08 Apr 2005 16:44 GMT
They claim it's possible to get the same or even slightly better mileage
on the blend 'if' your car is set up to run the stuff, as your newer car
may be.

> That's strange because I swear my mileage actually went up a little during
> those two tanks... not much but I know it didn't go down.  It was rated at
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>>
>>nate

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JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 Challenger (Green Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
55 Speedster
50 2R 10 truck

Mike Williams - 08 Apr 2005 17:09 GMT
In the Chicago area we can not get anything but the 10% ethanol blend gas. I
run it in all my old cars and have not had a problem yet. You do have to
keep an eye on the fuel filters for the first several tankfuls. It will
remove any varnish that has built up. This translates into some clogged fuel
inlets and filters. Here its run that or push the car.
I do check the rubber parts periodically, but so far all seems good.
I don't see much change in MPG in my newer cars. But this is the 10% blend
not the 15%.

> They claim it's possible to get the same or even slightly better mileage
> on the blend 'if' your car is set up to run the stuff, as your newer car
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>>>
>>>nate
John Poulos - 08 Apr 2005 18:43 GMT
Lee is talking about a 85 % blend, not just 10 % added. Your Studebaker
would not even start in cold weather on the 85% stuff.

> In the Chicago area we can not get anything but the 10% ethanol blend gas. I
> run it in all my old cars and have not had a problem yet. You do have to
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>>>>
>>>>nate

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Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
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64 Challenger (Green Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
55 Speedster
50 2R 10 truck

Lee Aanderud - 08 Apr 2005 18:51 GMT
Is this Ethanol (E-85) different than the stuff I used up in ND?  I don't
remember any special signs on the pumps... it was just in line between
regular and premium, higher octane than regular but the same price.

Lee

> Lee is talking about a 85 % blend, not just 10 % added. Your Studebaker
> would not even start in cold weather on the 85% stuff.
John Poulos - 08 Apr 2005 19:37 GMT
You said you used E-85, so I assumed that's what you used, it's 85 %
ethanol and not to be used in a old car not set to run on it.  The 10-15
% blends may cause some fuel system harm, but a Studebaker will run OK
on it.  The E 85 should have a warning on the pump.  I found this:

  Can I Use E-85 in My Vehicle?
E-85 fuel can be used in flexible fuel vehicles (FFVs). A flexible fuel
vehicle is able to operate on any combination of gasoline and ethanol up
to 85 percent ethanol. The FFV system allows the driver to use any
combination of gasoline or ethanol - from 100 percent unleaded gasoline
to 85 percent ethanol. E85 partners, GMC, DaimlerChrysler and Ford all
produce vehicles that can run on E85 or gasoline when E85 is
unavailable. Ask for an FFV at your favorite showroom - it costs nothing
extra and may just save you a bundle...since your engine may last longer.

> Is this Ethanol (E-85) different than the stuff I used up in ND?  I don't
> remember any special signs on the pumps... it was just in line between
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>Lee is talking about a 85 % blend, not just 10 % added. Your Studebaker
>>would not even start in cold weather on the 85% stuff.

Signature

JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 Challenger (Green Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
55 Speedster
50 2R 10 truck

Lee Aanderud - 08 Apr 2005 19:50 GMT
I think I was using a 10% blend up in ND.  So I'm comparing apples to
oranges with the E-85.  Probably need to read the owner's manual to see what
it says... not exactly a benefit if it's cheaper but going to drop my MPG by
10-20% and reduce the HP.

Lee

> You said you used E-85, so I assumed that's what you used, it's 85 %
> ethanol and not to be used in a old car not set to run on it.  The 10-15 %
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>>>Lee is talking about a 85 % blend, not just 10 % added. Your Studebaker
>>>would not even start in cold weather on the 85% stuff.
Richard Lawler - 08 Apr 2005 20:32 GMT
As E-85 has an octane rating of 100-105 you would not experience a HP
loss. Actually you could get up to a 5% gain. Here is a website with
good info in regards to E-85, granted it is an Iowa Ag. website, but
it still has good info in this area.


Richard Lawler

'57 1/2 ton Transtar
'51 2dr Champion
N8N - 08 Apr 2005 20:46 GMT
> As E-85 has an octane rating of 100-105 you would not experience a HP
> loss. Actually you could get up to a 5% gain. Here is a website with
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> '57 1/2 ton Transtar
> '51 2dr Champion

this is true, however you would need to have an engine that can take
advantage of the increased octane.  The carb would have to be jetted
much richer as well (or appropriate adjustments made to the FI system)
to not run lean as ethanol is an oxygenated fuel, and its energy
density is less as well (as you don't need the oxygen that it carries
with it, you can just get it out of the air as needed) so mileage as
measured in MPG would suffer even if efficiency remained the same.  I
believe that the energy density of pure ethanol is roughly half that of
pump gas but that's going off memory.

I'm not saying that ethanol is a BAD fuel - just that it has drawbacks.
Were it cheap enough (i.e. half the cost of gasoline) it could catch
on in a big way, because cleaner burning and increased octane are Good
Things.  (there's a reason dragsters use methanol, after all.)  The
only really insurmountable drawback is the decreased cruising range
when used in older vehicles without extra-large fuel tanks to
compensate.

nate
John Poulos - 08 Apr 2005 20:53 GMT
Not true, it is higher octane, but delivers less energy when burned.

"Ethanol has a 34 percent lower heating value than gasoline and tends to
mix with any water collected at the bottom of the tank. Thus 1.5 gallons
of ethanol are required to replace the energy in one gallon of gasoline."

   You can make more power with ethanol by increasing the compression
ratio, and burning more of it per mile, but less HP/gallon burned
compared to gasoline.  The whole thing is a subsidy to the farm states
and not much more. Someday we can produce a gallon of ethanol without a
net energy loss, but not yet.

> As E-85 has an octane rating of 100-105 you would not experience a HP
> loss. Actually you could get up to a 5% gain. Here is a website with
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> '57 1/2 ton Transtar
> '51 2dr Champion

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JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 Challenger (Green Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
55 Speedster
50 2R 10 truck

Richard Lawler - 08 Apr 2005 20:56 GMT
That will come as news to the USDA.....

http://www.alcohol4fuel.com/id18.html

If I showed you a report from 20 years ago that showed that
Studebakers had never run 200 mph and concluded that they never would
(or that they hadn't yet) would my logic be faulty?

Richard Lawler

'57 1/2 ton Transtar
'51 2dr Champion
N8N - 08 Apr 2005 21:07 GMT
> That will come as news to the USDA.....
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> '57 1/2 ton Transtar
> '51 2dr Champion

There's a difference between peak HP and lowest BSFC.  Ethanol *may*
give higher peak HP in a properly tuned engine than the same engine set
up to run gasoline, but BSFC will by necessity be higher unless you can
figure out how to kick effeciency up into the 40% range.

nate
John Poulos - 08 Apr 2005 21:22 GMT
 Now there's a unbiased source. <g> If it's profitable and energy
efficient why pay tax payer money to subsidize it ? I'll drop this part
of thread because we are drifting way O.T.
> That will come as news to the USDA.....
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> '57 1/2 ton Transtar
> '51 2dr Champion

Signature

JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 Challenger (Green Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
55 Speedster
50 2R 10 truck

--Shiva-- - 09 Apr 2005 00:36 GMT
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:53:32 -0400,  you wrote:

local fire marshall has a duel fuel vehicle..

he has tried the 85% and straight gas..
must be a car problem, cause it gets FAR better milage on
straight gas than the alchy mix..
he has records to back this up, and his boss is rather ticked
over it.. cause it DOES DO so poorely

    --Shiva--
   
   
Nate Nagel - 09 Apr 2005 00:46 GMT
> On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:53:32 -0400,  you wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>      --Shiva--
>      

There is no problem, that's the nature of the beast.  Ethanol just
doesn't have as much energy per unit volume as gasoline.  It's probably
working correctly.

nate

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Studedude - 10 Apr 2005 06:32 GMT
Here it is. E-85 does have less BTUs than Gasoline so you will not get
the same fuel economy, it will be less.  For it to make economic sense
to use E-85 it would need to be roughly  $.46/gallon cheaper than gas.

Can you make more power off of E-85 than you can off of gasoline?  Yes,
ethanol contains oxygen which means you bring oxygen in with the fuel
and as we all know more air equals more power.  However, if your engine
is not set up to run on ethanol then you run the chance of leaning out
your engine in scorching a piston or burning a valve or two.  

Nick
Mike Williams - 08 Apr 2005 20:36 GMT
E-85 is a different enity altogether. I have a Grand Caravan and a Taurus
both of which will run on the E-85 but there are only about 4 stations in
the whole State that sell it. I certainly would not try it in an old car.
Like John says, the car would probably only run till what was in the bowl
and lines ran out. I understood that Lee was uncertain as to whether he had
used E-85 or the ethanol 10 -15% BLENDS.

>I think I was using a 10% blend up in ND.  So I'm comparing apples to
>oranges with the E-85.  Probably need to read the owner's manual to see
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>>>>Lee is talking about a 85 % blend, not just 10 % added. Your Studebaker
>>>>would not even start in cold weather on the 85% stuff.
Mike - 08 Apr 2005 21:53 GMT
 I have a copy of The "Ford Speed Manual", by Bill Fisher, from 1952.
There's a chapter about using alcohol in hot rods,  mostly flathead V8's,
for competition.  The idea was to use it at the track or "lakes" for the
extra power, (substantial, even without nitro-methane); and convert back to
gas for daily use.  Edelbrock sold "Alky-Conversion" kits for Stromberg "48"
or "97" carbs, @ $4.50 each.  The recommended way to spare the fuel pump
diaphragm was to use the pump to pressurize the fuel tank.  It pumped air
into the tank to force fuel out.  A small hand pump was used to supplement
it.
 Fisher said a lot of the power increase was because the intake charge was
cooler than with gas.  It was common to have frost form on the outside of
the intake manifold.
                                              Mike M.

 
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