Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
HomeAnnouncements
Discussion Groups
By Brand
BMWChevroletDodgeFordGMHondaLexusMercedes-BenzNissanPeugeotToyotaVolkswagenOther Brands
By Topic
4x4 CarsRVsDrivingMaintenance & RepairCar AudioCollectible Cars
Country Specific
Australian ForumsUK Forums
ArticlesAuto InsuranceBuyingCars & TechnologyMaintenanceMiscellaneousSafety
DMV Resources
Related Topics
MotorcyclesBoatsMore Topics ...

Car Forum / Antique and Collectibles / Studebaker / August 2005

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

R4 Carb. Rods and Jets

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Michael - Roseland FL - 17 Aug 2005 04:11 GMT
I have been trying different rod and jet combinations for some time now
to try and get the R4 Avanti to run leaner and accelerate at the same
time.  I have the correct number carter afb carbs. front and rear.  The
rear carter does not use vacum advance and Dave T. set my chrysler
converted electronic distributor up with centrifigal vs. vacum advance
as the rear carb. does not have a vacum advance pick up on an R4 from
the factory.

I bought a calibration kit from Summitt for a 500 CFM Eddlebrock
Perfomer.  Does anyone have any suggestions on the best size to use for
rods and meters on this car?  Thanks!
tedharbit@aol.com - 17 Aug 2005 05:15 GMT
Michael,  I just typed out all the stock info on jets and rods for the
R 4 but for some reason it didn't go.  If you don't know what they are
and want them, let me know and I'll retype it and try again.

Ted
Bob Johnstone - 17 Aug 2005 09:41 GMT
> I have been trying different rod and jet combinations for some time now
> to try and get the R4 Avanti to run leaner and accelerate at the same
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Perfomer.  Does anyone have any suggestions on the best size to use for
> rods and meters on this car?  Thanks!

R4

      - Carter AFB 1-9/16" primaries, 1-11/16" secondries
            Front Carb
            Standard model Stude# 1563051
            AFB-3810S
            flow 675 CFM (+-10)
            Primary jet # 120-162 Size (0-1015)
            Secondary Jet # 120-176 size (.0635)
            Primary metering rod # 16-124 size (.069 X .0635)
            float setting 5/16"

            Rear Carb
            Standard model Stude# 1563051
            AFB-3811S
            flow 675 CFM (+-10)
            Primary jet # 120-162 Size (0-1015)
            Secondary Jet # 120-122 size (.070)
            Primary metering rod # 16-204 size (.073 X .063)
            float setting 5/16"

BobJ
Michael - Roseland FL - 17 Aug 2005 13:21 GMT
Do you think that is too much carb. for a 304.5 with R3 pistons and
that could be causing the rich problem?  I am only getting black smoke
from the left bank at idle. The right bank is clean.  I have tried
jetting the left bank down and it makes no difference.  Would an intake
gasket being off a little cause gas to build up and make it run rich?
I pulled the plugs from the left bank last night.   #1 was dark.  The
middle two were pitch black.  The rear plug was a nice tan color.
Thank you!
Jeff Rice - 17 Aug 2005 14:29 GMT
Jetting should make a difference on even and odd cylinders, and not on one
bank or the other.
In reading this thread through all the posts I can tell you , you have two
carbs on there that are too big.
They are too big even if there was only one carb.
The R4 was a pretty specific high rpm design, and not really meant for
running around town and going to the store.
Maybe that would be ok if you were drag racing, but not so good for the
street.
By basic airflow standards applied generically to carbs, a 304 engine should
only need about a 650 cfm single carb.
You are running double that. Even with two 500cfm AFB carbs you are 400 cfm
too big.
Now you can get away with that under certain conditions and with certain
carb settings (delayed, or limited secondary throttle blade opening)
Both carbs should match (rod and jet wise) on the primary side, and they
should match (rod & jet wise) on the secondary side too.
The carbs should be synchronized as far as idle goes (that will be a trick
with a Uni-Syn as it is designed for a teeny 1bbl and 2bbl.
And making the distributor a manual advance only is a mistake.
Your initial timing may be ok, but the total will be not enough, or if you
set it for total advance, your initial would be too much.
You should hook up the vacuum advance back up.Hook it to whatever carb has
the correct port available.
Reading your plugs is the correct thing to do.
They are talking (no...yelling)  to you.
Your fuel distribution is way off.
Look at the manifold runners and then look at the carb sides you are
changing jets on.
Whatever you did on #8 to get that tan color is what you want to get on the
others.
With carbs that are too big, you run the problem of 'loss of signal' to the
carb.
The carb sees such low airflow that there is not enough vacuum at the
venturi to pull enough fuel in (OK, outside air pressure to push it into the
low pressure area in the venturi,,,,for you Bernoulli fans).. Then when you
step on the gas the butterflies open and there is a massive inrush of air,
without enough fuel to burn, and hence the huge bog off the line. The
accelerator pump shot of fuel is designed to get you past this (hopefully)
short transition period to where airflow has increased to the point where
the signal the carb sees at the venturis is enough to keep the engine
running strong.
But.... If the engine doesn't see enough signal, then the seemingly logical
thing to do is 'fatten' up the jets on the primary side.
This may help a little bit, but it won't cure the base problem, which is too
big a throttle bore for the displacement (airflow) the engine 'really' sees.
Glad you are keeping track of the numbers, because without a diary of jet
and rod changes and their effects on the engine, you can get way lost real
quick.
Reverting to 1964 OE spec's will get you back to a baseline, but that will
only get you back to your starting point.
You will still need to tweak 'your' engine to where it likes to be.
Your timing changes are the first thing I would go back to and retrace your
steps.
Hook the vacuum advance back up and reset your initial timing and then check
your total advance with a setback timing light.
Make sure these are 'close' to OEM specs.
Then go back to your baseline carb jet and rod spec's.
Triple check your throttle linkage to be extra sure the primaries are
opening when they should, and that the secondaries open later.
Check (ignition off) that the throttle butterflies are opening all the way
with a flashlight.
Check your fuel pressure at idle and at mid rpm.
Then run it with the stock rod and jet combo on some cleaned spark plugs and
read them.
That's where to start.
Then make your primary jet/rod changes...one step at a time...to BOTH carbs.
Read the plugs again.
Then, when you have the primary side looking good, plug wise, start with the
secondaries.
When you have the secondaries jetted so the transition from primaries to
secondaries doesn't stumble, and the high rpm doesn't break up.
Write down that set up numbers and circle it in red <g>.
Then the only changes you will be making will have to do with seasonal
temperature swings, altitude changes, and other mods you do to the engine.
(You don't have altitude problems at +12 feet above sea level, do you>
<lol>..

If all this doesn't work, give me a call. I have a good pair of matched
AFB's I'll bring down (with my Strip-Kit).
We'll get 'er straightened out...
Jeff

"Michael - Roseland FL" wrote...
> Do you think that is too much carb. for a 304.5 with R3 pistons and
> that could be causing the rich problem?  I am only getting black smoke
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> middle two were pitch black.  The rear plug was a nice tan color.
> Thank you!
Paul Johnson - 17 Aug 2005 18:10 GMT
> ...The R4 was a pretty specific high rpm design, and not really meant for
> running around town and going to the store.
> Maybe that would be ok if you were drag racing, but not so good for the
> street....

Exactly.  Jon Myer told me a long time ago that a R-4 was not a streetable
engine.  The Motor Trend (or whatever) test of a '64 R-4 Daytona in '63
pretty well showed it wasn't a good street engine.  I think in driving from
South Bend to Phoenix (or some place out west) they got a HIGH of 8 miles
per gallon on what they called a long downhill stretch.

> And making the distributor a manual advance only is a mistake.
> Your initial timing may be ok, but the total will be not enough, or if you
> set it for total advance, your initial would be too much.
> You should hook up the vacuum advance back up.Hook it to whatever carb has
> the correct port available....

The original R-4s have no vacuum advance.  There is a plate on the
distributor where the vacuum advance would normally go.
Paul Johnson
Michael - Roseland FL - 17 Aug 2005 22:55 GMT
"The original R-4s have no vacuum advance.  There is a plate on the
> distributor where the vacuum advance would normally go".

Correct Paul. Also the original rear R4 carb has no port for vacum
advance. That is why Dave T. set up the distibutor without vacum
advance.

Sonny, I realize the carbs are too much for the engine.  It runs great,
just rich.  I was trying to jet them dowm so I could use the correct
number carters on the car.  I am a purist when at all possible.  Is it
possible to "jet them down" to make them more acceptable to the car?

Thanks!!!

> > ...The R4 was a pretty specific high rpm design, and not really meant for
> > running around town and going to the store.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> distributor where the vacuum advance would normally go.
> Paul Johnson
Michael - Roseland FL - 17 Aug 2005 22:56 GMT
I am sorry Jeff.  I realized after I posted I called you Sonny!  Jeff,
would you email me your phone number?  I would like to chat with you
sometime.  Thanks
R W Hughes - 19 Aug 2005 05:16 GMT
> I pulled the plugs from the left bank last night.   #1 was dark.  The
> middle two were pitch black.  The rear plug was a nice tan color.

you do know that the two center cylinders on one side of the engine and
the two outside cylinders on the other side run on the same side of the
carburetor? As in 1,4,6,7 use one side and 2,3,5,8 use the other side?
Signature

Robert W. Hughes (Bob)
BackYard Engineering
29:40.237N, 95:28.726W or perhaps 30:55.265N, 95:20.590W
Houston, Texas "The city with too much Oxygen"
rwhughe@oplink.net

Michael - Roseland FL - 19 Aug 2005 12:58 GMT
I did not relize that Bob.  I ordered two 600 CFM calibration kits from
Summit and am going t make another run at jetting down.  The first kit
I bought was for a 500 CFM carb but it was jetting down too far.  Now
with the loose bolts tightened I am hoping the 600 CFM kits will lean
it out.  I ordered two kits because I will use the same size jets front
and rear on the primarys like the original carbs had. I will just
gradually go smaller.
tedharbit@aol.com - 18 Aug 2005 02:33 GMT
Bob, Where did  you get the info on the cfm?  I've never seen any
figures for any of the Stude AFB's.  I called Carter several years ago
and gave them all the info I could on the R 2 carb and they said they
needed one more number I couldn't find but that they could tell me they
were between 600 and 635.  Do  you have any figures for the rest of the
AFB's Stude used?

Ted
Michael - Roseland FL - 18 Aug 2005 03:56 GMT
I worked on the R4 this evening.  I had a curled up section of the
intake gasket so I loosened all the bolts and corrected it.  The front
and rear bolts were not tight and that caused the intake gasket to curl
up.  After correcting the gasket and tightening it up the car runs
excellent and my popping noise from the exhaust is gone.  The intake
was evidently sucking air and that explains why jetting down was giving
me strange spark plug readings.  I think I am getting iot slowly but
surely.  Persistance pays off in these situations.
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.