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Car Forum / Antique and Collectibles / Studebaker / August 2005GT Hawk Judging in Spokane
OK, Guys, everybody has been justifiably upset about GT Hawk Judging at National Meets in recent years. However, the fact that there were no First Place GTs at Spokane is not, repeat NOT, a continuation of what has been going on the last several years. In the first place, the two judges who have been too nit-picky, and it is commonly known who they are/were, were not at Spokane AT ALL, much less judging GTs. Mostly "new blood" were judging GTs, and they were honest, decent guys. Second, there were only FOUR(!) GTs judged at Spokane!! (I judged Studebaker-Powered Modifieds, so was part of the Judging Staff, but had nothing to do with GTs.) When it was announced at the Judge's Lunch that the GTs had been judged and there were no first place GTs, everyone groaned. However, I then took it upon myself to go find the four cars in question for a quick look-over. I could only find three of them, NGer Gordon Richmond's being one. I'm sure Gordon would be the first to agree that a cursory check-over would reveal none of them being potentially First-Place cars, maybe not even Seconds. However, I didn't put a pencil to the judging sheet, so I wouldn't want to speculate as to how many might have gotten a Second versus a Third, if any. But none of the three were First-Place cars, really. It might be postulated that the unrealistically-tough judging in that class of late scared people away from having their GTs judged. There were several GTs for DISPLAY that looked really nice, like maybe a couple hours' detailing could have produced a First-Place GT. But they weren't entered for judging, so we'll never know. Gordon may be able to post his overall impression of the fourth car in the Judged GT class: I simply didn't see it. BP. Thanks for the clarification, and I tend to agree about the reasons for the low turnout. I know many of the owners of the nice GT's in Charlotte decided once was enough. <g> Actually, glad to see they didn't pad the score rather than just judge fairly. > OK, Guys, everybody has been justifiably upset about GT Hawk Judging at > National Meets in recent years. However, the fact that there were no [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Gordon may be able to post his overall impression of the fourth car in > the Judged GT class: I simply didn't see it. BP.  SignatureJP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper) 64 Challenger (Plain Wrapper ?) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk 63 GT Hawk (on ebay) 61 Hawk 60? Hawk 54 Starlight(sold) 53 Starlight True, but how many Studebaker enthusiasts didn't enter, or entered a different class, because of past experience? It's a tough deal when new judges carry the burden of past judges...and contestants. Jeff "John Poulos" wrote... > Thanks for the clarification, and I tend to agree about the reasons for > the low turnout. I know many of the owners of the nice GT's in Charlotte > decided once was enough. <g> Actually, glad to see they didn't pad the > score rather than just judge fairly. > Bob Palma wrote: >> OK, Guys, everybody has been justifiably upset about GT Hawk Judging at [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >> Gordon may be able to post his overall impression of the fourth car in >> the Judged GT class: I simply didn't see it. BP. Bob, The statement below, that you made, hits the problem square on the head. " It might be postulated that the unrealistically-tough judging in that class of late scared people away from having their GTs judged." You know, the first really nice car I ever did, a really rare 56 2 dr. sedan, was entered and took such a walluping that you'd have thought the thing should have been in a junkyard somewhere, awaiting the crusher. The problems? To much orange peel, dual exhaust, no Willard Tar Top Battery, radials (WWW), and no tag on the radiator. A total of about 67 points deducted. Some of the judging sheets looked like they had been engaged in a pencil marking war, and others nothing! The individual scoring reflected such a hugh disparity between judges that it's a wonder the darn thing even scored as well as it did. Of course, I appealed the dual exhaust and Willard Battery question and the couple of points were restored, but I think you get the picture. This kind of crap is still there, and in my opinion, nothing has really changed in the last 20 years. It's for this reason that I've never entered another car for judging, went to work with Rene's judging committee to try and fix these kinds of problems and became a judge myself. Unfortunately, the Judd-Begian group put a stop to any real effort towards fixing these problems. Still, nothing has changed. It's the same old crap! Bo I still can beat this dead horse a bit. <g> I did go nuts with the Willard battery, bias plies and the works. I really only wanted to know what defects were left, and to this day I don't know how the GT's in my class scored so low, or what we did wrong. In sounds like you had the same type of judges, more interested in tearing you a new a-hole then in helping you improve the car. I was warned about judging and still pissed away about 2K and lots of labor only to lose points from when the car was just purchased. Never, ever again. > Bob, > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Bo SignatureJP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper) 64 Challenger (Plain Wrapper ?) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk 63 GT Hawk (on ebay) 61 Hawk 60? Hawk 54 Starlight(sold) 53 Starlight I respectfully disagree, Bo. The B/J duo was not at the meet at all this year and, thus, could not have influenced anything. Carl Thoms is trying to make some honest inroads into such discrepancies, but he's barely been at it a year. There will always be problems with judging because it must be done by volunteers; SDC can hardly afford to train and pay judges. I help judge because Carl Thoms is one of the Advisors who answers questions for The Co-Operator. I figure it's the least I can do to return the favor and help him fill the judging staff...ditto when Jim Pepper was Head Judge. On the other hand, The Hudson-Essex-Terraplane Club has never had judging and is still growing...<G> > On the other hand, The Hudson-Essex-Terraplane Club has never had > judging and is still growing...<G> After looking at a few of the judging forms, the only part I question is the 2-points as opposed to 1-point on authenticity. Its either authentic; or it isn't! Some may feel using a Genuine Studebaker outside rearview mirror that was used on a different year Stude over an generic autoparts store unit entitles them to one less point being deducted. The mirror being judged is either authentic for that year; or it isn't. In most instances, authenticity of a certain item is not a 'gray' area, therefore, all items that aren't authentic should only have a '1-point-per' deduction. Craig. I could see a one point deduction because I have a correct repro mirror, you have a Pep Boys for a 2 pointer and one anal SOB has a NOS unit for no deduction. <g> >>On the other hand, The Hudson-Essex-Terraplane Club has never had >>judging and is still growing...<G> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Craig. SignatureJP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper) 64 Challenger (Plain Wrapper ?) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk 63 GT Hawk (on ebay) 61 Hawk 60? Hawk 54 Starlight(sold) 53 Starlight > I could see a one point deduction because I have a correct repro > mirror, you have a Pep Boys for a 2 pointer and one anal SOB has a NOS > unit for no deduction. <g> Maybe this is a problem that should be resolved immediately. An honest repop item shouldn't lose any points. If its a faithful reproduction of the original, it should be almost indistingushable from the original. In other words, you should have had zero points deducted. Did your mirror come from one of our more reputable vendors that specialize in reproduction parts like Phantom or SI that strive to manufacture the trim item as original as possible? I know you attempted to have the GT Hawk trunk emblems redone correctly, but the price to have it done that way scared the hell out of you and most others away. Craig The problem is many repro items are not perfect duplicates of NOS. The GT Hawk exhaust extension are a example. If the guy next to me just spent $500 for a pair of 'real' ones, he deserves the extra point. If no one in the class has NOS, there should be no deduction. It'll never be totally fair, a loaded R2 Lark Daytona, could lose 50 points for items that don't even appear on a bread and butter 4 door. >> I could see a one point deduction because I have a correct repro >>mirror, you have a Pep Boys for a 2 pointer and one anal SOB has a NOS [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Craig SignatureJP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper) 64 Challenger (Plain Wrapper ?) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk 63 GT Hawk (on ebay) 61 Hawk 60? Hawk 54 Starlight(sold) 53 Starlight Bob, The J-B influence is there. It has been there for the last 20 years, that I know of, and in all likely hood will continue to be there for many years to come. Here we are, same problem 100th rendition. SDC doesn't need to hire judges. Train volunteer judges, yes! If your going to have judging, A standard must be set and judging (judges) must adhere to the standard and methods (prescribed) for determining the actual condition of the vehicle in relation to that standard. This simply doesn't happen! I've seen a few of these GT's these fellas are talking about. It's mind boogling! Of course, I've seen a few other judging events that are even more mind boogling! How about a group of experienced judges (C/K) that don't know there is a seam between the rocker panel and the rear fender. Or, that the lack of this seam and the one between the front fender and the rocker may indicate that something is amiss! Oh, yeah! Fiberglass and bondo along the entire bottom of the car from the rear well wheel opening to the front wheel well opening? Duh! How many on that team do you suppose had the remotest clue about what I was talking about? ZERO! Not a single one even noticed it! A group of experienced judges? Hmmmmmmmm? Bob, your right. There will always be some kind of problem crop up. It's in the nature of the business. But, for the specific kinds of reoccurring problems that keep cropping up, well, it's a no brainer! SDC judging at the national level is extremely obtuse! For a number of years, these specific kinds of problems and a host of others, also reoccurring, have found their way into judging at one of these events. The fact that these problems are still plaguing our club is simply ridiculous. You know, the one event that I've attended again and again over the years, the SE Zone Meet, I've yet to find these same kinds of reoccurring problems. Apparently, these people learn from their mistakes? Of course, these meets were the test ground for a system of judging that is so superior to what the club is still doing that it's not even funny, anymore! Yet! Here we are, re-inventing the wheel all over again! It's just too, too much! I'm sorry Bob, but I've just got to laugh about this! This is almost as funny as our local school superintendent telling us that his transportation team had planned for a 20% increase in fuel costs this year, or $200,000.00. But, by combining some routes, getting bus drivers to drive more efficiently (driving slower and coasting when possible) and reducing the fleet from 186 buses to 171, the budget was returned to the 2004-05 level, for a tremendous cost savings to the district. What's happened now? He's telling us the district is short 15 buses and bus drivers (they let them go), we can't possibly meet our current needs with what we have and he needs the $200K plus a bunch more to fix the problem! My question is, "Why haven't we fired this over paid numb nut and his transportation team all ready"?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was on a committee once that was actually making inroads into fixing the judging system. I know how the politics of this crap works. So, don't sit there and try and tell me what Ridge, Pepper and Thoms tried to do, or is trying to do and making it appear like it's some fantastic new attempt to make things better. It's simply another individual coming along and trying his best to re-invent the wheel. Blah, blah, blah! On the other hand, the Fargo club has never had judging, either, and look how it's growing! Bo (don't get me started on the damn SNM, either) nice ref. there Bob! The BJ duo, eh? <sic>. But I as many would not have researched the results of judging as you did, as soon as I heard that there were no first place GT's my ears turned off to reason after the BJ job at Charlotte. I think that my car was the only 64 GT at the meet- at least I didn't see any others. It has new Strato Blue paint and looks pretty good, but I didn't have it judged, as it would be considered highly modified- AFB Carter carb, T-bow ignition, Optima batttery, cruise control, radial tires, etc. In other words, I've done things to the car to make it reliable and enjoyable to drive. I drove it 400 miles to Spokane and 400 miles home, without mishap, and enjoyed every minute of it. That's why I own it, to drive, not to win trophies. Those who seek authenticity awards have different objectives, and I support their efforts in their quest. For me, using the car is the fun. Dave > OK, Guys, everybody has been justifiably upset about GT Hawk Judging at > National Meets in recent years. However, the fact that there were no [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Gordon may be able to post his overall impression of the fourth car in > the Judged GT class: I simply didn't see it. BP. Hey, that's a beautiful Strato Blue '64...I remember admiring it under the shade tree on top of the hill near the show field on show day, right? NICE job on that car, Dave. BP > I think that my car was the only 64 GT at the meet- at least I didn't see > any others. It has new Strato Blue paint and looks pretty good, but I didn't [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Dave Thanks Bob. And thank you for your great work at the Co-operator seminar, it was very informative. > Hey, that's a beautiful Strato Blue '64...I remember admiring it under > the shade tree on top of the hill near the show field on show day, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> >> Dave That is the reason I joined the club. To many people forget what the D in SDC stands for. I have restored to Larks but neither one to show quality. Both of my cars are real nice drivers, extremely reliable, and fun to drive. Nick This judging crap is totally out of hand. I got a taste of it way back in 1981 at the Gettysburg national. Never had a car judged since and never will. Studebakers were a working man's vehicle and that is how they should still be presented as, utilitarian vehicles that got you from point A to point B and still do for me. A pox on this judging brouhaha... JT > That is the reason I joined the club. To many people forget what the D > in SDC stands for. I have restored to Larks but neither one to show > quality. Both of my cars are real nice drivers, extremely reliable, > and fun to drive. > > Nick Well said Dave. It is supposed to be a drivers club that gives out trophies to deserving owners, not a trophy club that penalizes drivers. Jeff "The Other Dave" wrote... >I think that my car was the only 64 GT at the meet- at least I didn't see >any others. It has new Strato Blue paint and looks pretty good, but I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >using the car is the fun. > Dave I agree about the deserving owners part, as long as the car is deserving. My dream would be tough, consistant judging, that improves the breed. i.e. If you deduct for something, let the owner at least know what is wrong, so he can fix it, or perhaps reeducate the judge. <g> > Well said Dave. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >>using the car is the fun. >>Dave SignatureJP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper) 64 Challenger (Plain Wrapper ?) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk 63 GT Hawk (on ebay) 61 Hawk 60? Hawk 54 Starlight(sold) 53 Starlight > I agree about the deserving owners part, as long as the car is > deserving. My dream would be tough, consistant judging, that improves > the breed. i.e. If you deduct for something, let the owner at least know > what is wrong, so he can fix it, or perhaps reeducate the judge. <g> I helped judge division 9 at the meet. Carl stated clearly and often at the breakfast meeting that we were to make notes whenever points were deducted. I believe all judged cars at Spokane should get feedback on why any points were deducted. You probably had a lot to do with this directive, John, thanks to your TW article and other efforts. It is the right thing to do. Consistant judging in one class in one event is possible and should be insisted on. Consistant judging across classes or across events is probably not possible. When I got there on Tuesday, Carl had about 15 of 36 judges signed up. The other 21 had to have some major arm twisting to be "convinced" (me included). Not many people like to judge or think they have the skills to judge. From class to class and meet to meet there are different judges with different skill levels, different experience levels, etc. Your car will be judged differently from a car in another class and differently from meet to meet. It's a fact of life. We're a volunteer club. We have meets world wide. The same judges are not at every meet. We can't afford 36 professional judges. One other point. The team I was on judged over 20 cars. It took until mid afternoon to do this (and remember, we were judging division 9 and ONLY condition, fit and finish...not authenticity). In order to get through all cars, we could not look at everthing. Those areas that we choose to focus on may not be the same items focused on at the next meet or in another team. At larger meets (South Bend has 3 times the number of cars being judged), the areas examined have to be even fewer in order to get through the field before dark. If you have your car judged, be a judge at least once. I think you'll get a new appreciation for the process and a better understanding of why your car scored lower than a car in another class that looked worse than yours, and/or why your car scored lower AFTER you fixed all the things pointed out in the last concours. It's is definately not a science, but Carl and others are doing their best to make it as fair and consistant as possible. If you have ideas to help the process, talk to Carl. -Dick- Well said, Dick. I really didn't expect to to win a trophy for my car car, and I sure didn't. But I did drive it there and back, and enjoyed the process. I probably lost a few points because I spent a few hours the previous evening helping another couple fix their '50 Champion instead of detailing the Hawk. I'm going to take some time, and write a letter to Carl Thoms with a few ideas for improving the process. An improved version of the judging form will be high on the list. I also believe the judges' meeting should be held the previous evening, and be structured as a seminar, with some actual training. Maybe screen a few slides, have the trainees score that part of the car on a judging form, and then get to self-correct their work against an "official" version. Could be both fun and instructive. I also strongly agree that everyone who has a car judged should volunteer to judge at some point. Gord Richmond Now don't take my comments as sour grapes on my part. I have been judged at two of the three last International meets and I deserved every check marl I got. I do indeed think that there is a reason that only 4 GT Hawks were entered in the concours. Judging in past events definitely has had a 'chill effect', as Gordon said. Seeing a bunch of cars with 'display only' tags in the window means the owners don't want the hassle. Learning what yet needs to be done to correct a car is a great learning tool. I'd just as soon pay a group of experts to look over my car and tell me what is right and wrong. Maybe that could be a new fund raising tool for the SDC. Might bring all the GT Hawk guys out of the woodwork like ants to honey..... Jeff (and they could replace all that missing money from the SDC treasury) Rice Dick, very encouraging news about dealing with a difficult issue. I have judged many times and agree it's hard to be consistent across classes. i.e. if Paul Johnson and me were teamed up to judge the Avanti class, we'd be a lot more critical then if we were doing cars of the 20's. Having said that, there was was no excuse to have one or two classes with the bar set way above the rest as was done in the past. When you are warned before judging that you don't have a prayer based on previous years, you have a issue that needs to be addressed. The fact that club is aware of the issue at long last is great news. By not just 'giving away' first place trophies in a small GT class shows me that they value consistency above all. BTW, I was afraid my TW article would come across either as sour grapes, or too critical and am glad to see that the was not the case. >>I agree about the deserving owners part, as long as the car is >>deserving. My dream would be tough, consistant judging, that improves [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > -Dick- SignatureJP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper) 64 Challenger (Plain Wrapper ?) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk 63 GT Hawk (on ebay) 61 Hawk 60? Hawk 54 Starlight(sold) 53 Starlight Point of (posible) interest: I was at a ZM one time and there was a tie between two cars for top place. I, and two others, were asked to wander over and chevck them out, but not like we were judges, just interested Studebaker lovers. We went one at a time and did not confer and gave out opinion to the chief judge. I did so, but can't recall if my selection got 1st or not. I lusted for both, as it was. Karl "It is supposed to be a drivers club that gives out trophies to deserving owners, not a trophy club that penalizes drivers. " I don't see the SDC as a "trophy club". I see it providing multiple ways to enjoy the Studebaker hobby. Concours judging is only one segment of the hobby. I enjoy the SDC and had a great time at the national meet, and I didn't have a judged car. In fact, there were far more cars on "display" than judged. I'll bet the "display" owners had just as much fun (maybe more in some cases) than the "judged" owners. I did not feel "penalized" by having a Studebaker that would probably not win a first place trophy because I choose to drive it. I don't think we have to do away with tough judging to have a good club. IMHO, the "deserving owners" at a judged concours should be the owners that brought cars that are as "perfect" as possible. I personally don't want to attend a judged concours and see only daily drivers that were hosed off a couple of days before the event. I want to see the best of the best. IMHO, it is virtually impossible to DRIVE a true concours judged car. But that's OK (there are a few exceptions like Steve Hudson and his convert, but they are rare). If your crank is turned by wining trophys, it's probably a small price to pay to trailer your car. If your crank is turned by driving your Stude, the concours is probably not for you. There are tons of ways to enjoy your car that don't involve taking away someone else's way of enjoying the hobby. To me, lowering the judging standards is just like asking Ted to pull off a couple of plug wires so the rest of us can keep up with him. Most of us will never be as fast as Ted, and most of us will never beat that $100,000 fresh, trailerd restoration, but we can and do still have fun with our cars. If we the public are going to have a car judged at a event. There should be a first place in every division. If you didn't enter your better looking car, "Too bad". You can use the point system to tell what order they are. But you will have established a judging system. These events need to be fun again. If you have trailer queens, take them to pebble beach. But for the rest of us, "Can't we just have a little fun". Malcom > "It is supposed to be a drivers club that gives out trophies to > deserving [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > that $100,000 fresh, trailerd restoration, but we can and do still have > fun with our cars. > If we the public are going to have a car judged at a event. There should be > a first place in every division. If you didn't enter your better looking [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > rest of us, "Can't we just have a little fun". > Malcom There is an argument that says the best car in a division should get a first, the second best a second, etc. Many shows use this system. It's valid. Just as valid (IMHO) is the SDC system. If there are 3 beautiful, near perfect cars, it makes some sense for each to get a "first". With the SDC system, there is an opportunity for more trophys, and (probably) more happy entrants. With only three trophys per class, there would probably be even more whining. "These events need to be fun again". SDC meets in general, or the concours part? I personally had fun at both. What about them made them fun in the past that is missing now? "If you have trailer queens, take them to pebble beach" I for one would not like to see the most perfect Studebakers barred from SDC meets. I probably won't ever own a trailered show car, but I sure like to look at them (and learn from them). "Can't we just have a little fun". Yep. I sure do. -Dick- I don't agree with that concept, it would make "International Meet winner" a worthless term. Local meets, no problem, but SDC must have have meets where high standards have to be met. I have "won" trophies with beaters at a local meets after being asked to enter since there were no cars in the class. > If we the public are going to have a car judged at a event. There should be > a first place in every division. If you didn't enter your better looking [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >>that $100,000 fresh, trailerd restoration, but we can and do still have >>fun with our cars. SignatureJP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper) 64 Challenger (Plain Wrapper ?) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk 63 GT Hawk (on ebay) 61 Hawk 60? Hawk 54 Starlight(sold) 53 Starlight "IMHO, it is virtually impossible to DRIVE a true concours judged car." Oh, really? The Pebble Beach Concours was last weekend and they have to drive their high-buck classic cars over a street course to the golf course and back out. Those cars are worth far more (in money) than most of our Studebakers, and they are driven at least a bit. Leno isn't even afraid to drive in traffic! > "IMHO, it is virtually impossible to DRIVE a true concours judged > car." [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > course and back out. Those cars are worth far more (in money) than most > of our Studebakers, and they are driven at least a bit. Yes but........ back when Lucius Beebe was the chief judge he performed his duties in morning coat and white gloves and checked under the fenders with those white gloves for dust. Leno can also afford to pay someone else to spend 100 hours cleaning the car after it gets "home"... Ray >> "IMHO, it is virtually impossible to DRIVE a true concours judged >>car." [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > his duties in morning coat and white gloves and checked under the > fenders with those white gloves for dust. I think that the course is between 25 and 50 miles long. Any damage happening during the trip is ignored. Is that a drivers club or not? Of course, there are still cars which do not make the run and can win a less distinctive award, but one I would like anyhow! (My info is several years old.) I have avoided Monterey for the past decade or three.) Karl |
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