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Car Forum / Antique and Collectibles / Studebaker / August 2005

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"INVESTMENT"? NOT!

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reporter@vt.edu - 25 Aug 2005 16:43 GMT
Any one who calls his cost in repairing or restoring a vehicle an
"investment" is misusing the term. To invest means to place your money
where you can reasonably expect a return. To fix, build or restore
something so that you can continue to use it or simply enjoy it
constitutes what accountants call a "sunk cost." That is, you might be
able to get some of it back if and when you sell, but it makes more
sense to think of it as money spent for some necessity, like driving to
work, or for pleasure, like going to the movies. It's gone, gone, gone,
and calling it an investment only means you're kidding yourself or
trying to fool a buyer.

Bob Porter
63 Avanti
hoxiepoo@cox.net - 25 Aug 2005 16:52 GMT
Right on the money, Bob! Given the depreciation of new cars I've never
considered them an investment, either. Which explains why I'll never
buy a brand new car unless I win the lottery. Heck - even some
homebuying situations these days shouldn't be called investments.
John Poulos - 25 Aug 2005 17:56 GMT
 Investment:
"Property or another possession acquired for future financial return or
benefit."

Since I use the term investment, I have to disagree. If I bought a home
for 200K, put 50K in it and sold it for 300K, no one would argue with
the term investment. My IRA is in cars, not stock, art, coins or real
estate, but it's still a investment.

> Any one who calls his cost in repairing or restoring a vehicle an
> "investment" is misusing the term. To invest means to place your money
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Bob Porter
> 63 Avanti

Signature

JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
64 Challenger (Plain Wrapper ?)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
63 GT Hawk (on ebay)
61 Hawk
60? Hawk
54 Starlight(sold)
53 Starlight

bob m - 25 Aug 2005 18:04 GMT
As far as a reasonable return, I never have seen it happen except once
on a 56 J I had. Usually I break even or come out less than I paid for
the car. As far as making money on it, that is not what I do but if
someone can more power to them.

Bob Miles
Tucson AZ
John Poulos - 25 Aug 2005 18:14 GMT
You can lose your a.s on the wrong investment if you pick the wrong car,
thus my avoidance of Avanti's and non-flashy Studebakers. If you end up
upside down in a car you love, no biggie, but if it's food on the table,
it is.
> As far as a reasonable return, I never have seen it happen except once
> on a 56 J I had. Usually I break even or come out less than I paid for
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Bob Miles
> Tucson AZ

Signature

JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
64 Challenger (Plain Wrapper ?)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
63 GT Hawk (on ebay)
61 Hawk
60? Hawk
54 Starlight(sold)
53 Starlight

reporter@vt.edu - 25 Aug 2005 18:23 GMT
JP, you are a different case entirely. You're running a business where
you make smart purchases based on your knowledge of what the item will
bring after some low cost improvements. As such, I would say your
purchases are more like "buying on spec," as some do with real estate,
rather than investing. My comments were directed toward hobbyists who
pour tons of money into a labor of love, then naively expect to get it
back when they find they have to sell.

Bob Porter
bob m - 25 Aug 2005 18:34 GMT
In order to justify what someone does for a hobby, I have in the past
used the line" it is an investment" in order to sell the idea to
someone else. Nowadays I just say the truth---"it's what I want" <g>

To each his own.

Bob Miles
Tucson AZ
Craig Parslow - 26 Aug 2005 00:25 GMT
My comments were directed toward hobbyists who
> pour tons of money into a labor of love, then naively expect to get it
> back when they find they have to sell.
>
> Bob Porter

You just used two word/terms that separate those who expect 'fast
turnaround' versus 'fun quotient'.  I think 'hobbyist' and 'labor of love'
describe the category most of us fall into here.  Many KEEP their
Studebakers after restoring them and go about having fun with them
afterwards.  What IS good to know that, should the unforseen arise, it can
be sold off, even at a loss to raise some badly needed cash in an emergency
or otherwise.  A F**d guy I know sold his '35 many years ago (long before
the prices became out-of-this-world) so he could keep his half of the house
when his wife divorced him.  If he didn't have that car to sell, he'd
probably still be stuck in a condo or a starter home in a
less-than-desirable neighborhood.  I liken a 'forced' or 'quick-sale' to
what Studebaker did when they unloaded Pierce-Arrow a few years after they
bought it when the times were good.  True, P-A was sold at a loss, but it
netted some badly needed cash to keep the company afloat during the
depression.

Craig.
kelmbaker@msn.com - 26 Aug 2005 02:42 GMT
Out of the scores of Studes I've bought over the years I've only
restored one. I've cleaned up and got running numerous others. I've
driven some, once or twice as daily drivers, most as weekend cars. It
was the rumor of a car, followed by the stalk, followed by trying to
get it cheap or horse trading. Then the buy, dragging it home, cleaning
it up to see the hidden beauty (or ugliness). Then I have it for
awhile, most times get bored or discouraged, then sell it. Usually at a
loss or just even. Sometimes I've made money but overall I'm down. But
I have had a darn good time and I've owned a lot of Studebakers. Know
them pretty well. Owned almost every model from the mid fifties through
the end. Haven't had a '66 , or an Avanti. I want both. Also a late
30's, early forties Stude powered Rod. It's been a great hobby.
KM
bondobilly - 30 Aug 2005 23:20 GMT
The three Studebakers we owned we never purchased for investment. Should we
be able to afford the restoration on the 47 Commander Convertible, ot would
rightly be called an investment as the cost to finish would not come close
to the price we could get if we sold her. However in Asheville last year
there was a red commander ragtop, done real nice, sounded great, wand from
what I could tell it was correct, but the owner could not get anyone to pay
him $14,000.

The HFH with everything its been thru would generate me a tidy profit,
nothing to live off of, but enough to enjoy buying new toys.

Sometimes you do not know know your investing. We have one rrom in our home,
the office, and it contains everything we have collected that is Studebaker,
either by buying at York and Reedville, or E-bay.  When its my time to go
and Ellen and Robin follow my instructions, they will have a nice sum of
cash.

Bill
Ron - 31 Aug 2005 00:57 GMT
>The three Studebakers we owned we never purchased for investment. Should we
>be able to afford the restoration on the 47 Commander Convertible, ot would
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>what I could tell it was correct, but the owner could not get anyone to pay
>him $14,000.
Damndest thing around here, if you want to buy a POS, the price is
$5,000. If you want to sell a nice car.....all anyone will offer is
$5,000.

>The HFH with everything its been thru would generate me a tidy profit,
>nothing to live off of, but enough to enjoy buying new toys.

I'll offer you $5,000 <g>

>Sometimes you do not know know your investing. We have one rrom in our home,
>the office, and it contains everything we have collected that is Studebaker,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Bill

Ron/Champ 6

1963 8E5 Champ (Champ 6)
1962 Lark Daytona Convertible On eBay now...(Boomerang)
1995 VW Passat (Vanilla..yuk)
1994 Volvo 850 (Tilley)
1973 Volvo 1800 ES (Hyacinth Bucket)
wrenchsr@bellsouth.net - 31 Aug 2005 07:39 GMT
Investment??
Money and the rising prices of parts and available automobiles that we
and others like us enjoy will be the death of this hobby.
An investor is like a used car salesman [or to be more blunt...a St.
Louis pimp ] They pick up a cheap item, put new sneakers and a new
dress on it, give it a bath and then expect to make a homerun on it.
Most hobbiests own a car for an extended period of time. When it's sold
it's like loosing a family member.
Or turning your old girl friend over to a stranger.
An investor's only interest is how much profit is in each deal, not
what is best for the hobby.
Money ruined amature drag racing, stock car racing,
a competative motor is around 35K now. We used to race with a limit of
about $200.00 a month.
Car clubs used to be fun, if it moved under it's own power it was
accepted, if you modified it and made it better, that was fine also.
Now there is too much
politics,snobbery , bigitry  and cliqueishness that most people drop
out. They just don't want to be around it at an advanced age. Hobbies
are supposed to be fun and relaxing and enjoyable.
Now I'll throw you a bone. For all of you needing wiper blades and
arms. Try using IHC scout stuff, it's 11 inch length. Now if you abuse
this you'll drive the prices up for the rest of us.
John

59 Silver Hawk
60 Hawk 4- speed
And yes I know it AIN"T original
Jeff Rice - 31 Aug 2005 12:14 GMT
A little bitter there, John?
Any hobby will go through an evolution as popularity changes.
Studebakers are no different, and neither are the people in the hobby.
As far as the money goes?
Well, we are at the peak (or close to it, or just past it?) of a normal
economic cycle.
Money is cheap (relatively) and people with discretionary funds spend them
on frivolous things....like Studebakers. No one 'has' to drive a Studebaker.
It is a choice.
Even those that insist that their Stude is their only means of
transportation have made a choice.
Is everyone able to support a frivolous hobby? Dunno... Their choice.
Drag racing is a neat sport, where smashing up your pretty ride is the
furthest thing from your mind.
Because it drew money in and became an expensive sport is not a problem.
That is a normal function of a growth industry, be it a hobby, or a career.
You can still drag race on the cheap. You just have to step down to a lower
level.
Now......
Politics,snobbery , bigotry  and cliquishness are probably the biggest
reason for dropout of clubs and hobbies.  Too bad, too... And we see it
every day in this marques' clubs and chapters and organizations.
But....
You bring to this club yourself......and then your toy.
What you bring to a meeting or show is totally up to you.
A ratty Studebaker that shows up at our meetings is more rewarded by others
than the shiny new SUV that shows up with the a/c running full blast.
Your focus on money misses the most important part of this hobby...
It is the people. And how we interact.
If money was the benchmark, then we'd almost all be in the 'Banking Club of
America".
Sure, money is the oil that leaks out of our Studebakers, but you either fix
the leak, put more oil (money) in it, or run it until it quits.
Too many quitters here..... And too many passing on....
Let's keep what is important in front of us.
Jeff

<John wrote:..
> Investment??
> Money and the rising prices of parts and available automobiles that we
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> 60 Hawk 4- speed
> And yes I know it AIN"T original
ddstnkmp@yahoo.com - 31 Aug 2005 16:11 GMT
John,
If you are that bitter about your hobbies, change them.  Misery is
optional.

1. "the rising prices of parts and available automobiles that we
and others like us enjoy will be the death of this hobby".  Dig out
your old TW's.  I think you'll find that in most cases prices (adjusted
for inflation) are about the same as they were 25 years ago.  (There
are exceptions, of course).  I also believe that there are MORE people
involved in the old car hobby than there were 25 years ago.  I see the
opposite of you.  I see the hobby growing, not near death (subscribe to
any car magazines?, go to any swap meets, car shows lately?)

2.  "An investor's only interest is how much profit is in each deal,
not what is best for the hobby."  I think the hobby would be in trouble
if there weren't people actually making money off of it.  We wouldn't
have SASCO, SI, Chuck, Phil and all the other "evil vendors" if there
wasn't money to be made.  There wouldn't be repro parts, eBay Motors,
internet for sale listings, swap meets, etc.  Buying and selling cars
for a profit has been around since...well since there were cars.  It's
Capitalism.  It's our economic system.  Get over it.

3.  "Now there is too much politics,snobbery , bigitry  and
cliqueishness that most people drop out"  That's sort of like Yogi
saying "no one goes there anymore...it's too crowded".  In any large
group of people, there will be some sh.t heads.  Avoid them.  IMHO,
most car people are having fun, enjoying the hobby, and are great to be
around.

4.  "Money ruined amature drag racing, stock car racing, a competative
motor is around 35K now."  Amature racing wasn't REPLACED by big bucks
racing.  Look around.  Amature racing is still there in all forms.  If
you need a $35k motor to be competitive, that's your problem.  There
are plenty of folks out there on local drag strips and fairgrounds
round tracks having a great time for very little money.

5.  Thanks for the tip on the Scout wiper blades. (but now if we
actually buy them, and the prices go up due to increased demand, will
you be angry?)

-Dick-

> Investment??
> Money and the rising prices of parts and available automobiles that we
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> 60 Hawk 4- speed
> And yes I know it AIN"T original
 
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