Car Forum / Antique and Collectibles / Studebaker / August 2005
"INVESTMENT"? NOT!
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reporter@vt.edu - 25 Aug 2005 16:43 GMT Any one who calls his cost in repairing or restoring a vehicle an "investment" is misusing the term. To invest means to place your money where you can reasonably expect a return. To fix, build or restore something so that you can continue to use it or simply enjoy it constitutes what accountants call a "sunk cost." That is, you might be able to get some of it back if and when you sell, but it makes more sense to think of it as money spent for some necessity, like driving to work, or for pleasure, like going to the movies. It's gone, gone, gone, and calling it an investment only means you're kidding yourself or trying to fool a buyer.
Bob Porter 63 Avanti
hoxiepoo@cox.net - 25 Aug 2005 16:52 GMT Right on the money, Bob! Given the depreciation of new cars I've never considered them an investment, either. Which explains why I'll never buy a brand new car unless I win the lottery. Heck - even some homebuying situations these days shouldn't be called investments.
John Poulos - 25 Aug 2005 17:56 GMT Investment: "Property or another possession acquired for future financial return or benefit."
Since I use the term investment, I have to disagree. If I bought a home for 200K, put 50K in it and sold it for 300K, no one would argue with the term investment. My IRA is in cars, not stock, art, coins or real estate, but it's still a investment.
> Any one who calls his cost in repairing or restoring a vehicle an > "investment" is misusing the term. To invest means to place your money [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Bob Porter > 63 Avanti
 Signature JP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper) 64 Challenger (Plain Wrapper ?) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk 63 GT Hawk (on ebay) 61 Hawk 60? Hawk 54 Starlight(sold) 53 Starlight
bob m - 25 Aug 2005 18:04 GMT As far as a reasonable return, I never have seen it happen except once on a 56 J I had. Usually I break even or come out less than I paid for the car. As far as making money on it, that is not what I do but if someone can more power to them.
Bob Miles Tucson AZ
John Poulos - 25 Aug 2005 18:14 GMT You can lose your a.s on the wrong investment if you pick the wrong car, thus my avoidance of Avanti's and non-flashy Studebakers. If you end up upside down in a car you love, no biggie, but if it's food on the table, it is.
> As far as a reasonable return, I never have seen it happen except once > on a 56 J I had. Usually I break even or come out less than I paid for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Bob Miles > Tucson AZ
 Signature JP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper) 64 Challenger (Plain Wrapper ?) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk 63 GT Hawk (on ebay) 61 Hawk 60? Hawk 54 Starlight(sold) 53 Starlight
reporter@vt.edu - 25 Aug 2005 18:23 GMT JP, you are a different case entirely. You're running a business where you make smart purchases based on your knowledge of what the item will bring after some low cost improvements. As such, I would say your purchases are more like "buying on spec," as some do with real estate, rather than investing. My comments were directed toward hobbyists who pour tons of money into a labor of love, then naively expect to get it back when they find they have to sell.
Bob Porter
bob m - 25 Aug 2005 18:34 GMT In order to justify what someone does for a hobby, I have in the past used the line" it is an investment" in order to sell the idea to someone else. Nowadays I just say the truth---"it's what I want" <g>
To each his own.
Bob Miles Tucson AZ
Craig Parslow - 26 Aug 2005 00:25 GMT My comments were directed toward hobbyists who
> pour tons of money into a labor of love, then naively expect to get it > back when they find they have to sell. > > Bob Porter You just used two word/terms that separate those who expect 'fast turnaround' versus 'fun quotient'. I think 'hobbyist' and 'labor of love' describe the category most of us fall into here. Many KEEP their Studebakers after restoring them and go about having fun with them afterwards. What IS good to know that, should the unforseen arise, it can be sold off, even at a loss to raise some badly needed cash in an emergency or otherwise. A F**d guy I know sold his '35 many years ago (long before the prices became out-of-this-world) so he could keep his half of the house when his wife divorced him. If he didn't have that car to sell, he'd probably still be stuck in a condo or a starter home in a less-than-desirable neighborhood. I liken a 'forced' or 'quick-sale' to what Studebaker did when they unloaded Pierce-Arrow a few years after they bought it when the times were good. True, P-A was sold at a loss, but it netted some badly needed cash to keep the company afloat during the depression.
Craig.
kelmbaker@msn.com - 26 Aug 2005 02:42 GMT Out of the scores of Studes I've bought over the years I've only restored one. I've cleaned up and got running numerous others. I've driven some, once or twice as daily drivers, most as weekend cars. It was the rumor of a car, followed by the stalk, followed by trying to get it cheap or horse trading. Then the buy, dragging it home, cleaning it up to see the hidden beauty (or ugliness). Then I have it for awhile, most times get bored or discouraged, then sell it. Usually at a loss or just even. Sometimes I've made money but overall I'm down. But I have had a darn good time and I've owned a lot of Studebakers. Know them pretty well. Owned almost every model from the mid fifties through the end. Haven't had a '66 , or an Avanti. I want both. Also a late 30's, early forties Stude powered Rod. It's been a great hobby. KM
bondobilly - 30 Aug 2005 23:20 GMT The three Studebakers we owned we never purchased for investment. Should we be able to afford the restoration on the 47 Commander Convertible, ot would rightly be called an investment as the cost to finish would not come close to the price we could get if we sold her. However in Asheville last year there was a red commander ragtop, done real nice, sounded great, wand from what I could tell it was correct, but the owner could not get anyone to pay him $14,000.
The HFH with everything its been thru would generate me a tidy profit, nothing to live off of, but enough to enjoy buying new toys.
Sometimes you do not know know your investing. We have one rrom in our home, the office, and it contains everything we have collected that is Studebaker, either by buying at York and Reedville, or E-bay. When its my time to go and Ellen and Robin follow my instructions, they will have a nice sum of cash.
Bill
Ron - 31 Aug 2005 00:57 GMT >The three Studebakers we owned we never purchased for investment. Should we >be able to afford the restoration on the 47 Commander Convertible, ot would [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >what I could tell it was correct, but the owner could not get anyone to pay >him $14,000. Damndest thing around here, if you want to buy a POS, the price is $5,000. If you want to sell a nice car.....all anyone will offer is $5,000.
>The HFH with everything its been thru would generate me a tidy profit, >nothing to live off of, but enough to enjoy buying new toys. I'll offer you $5,000 <g>
>Sometimes you do not know know your investing. We have one rrom in our home, >the office, and it contains everything we have collected that is Studebaker, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Bill Ron/Champ 6
1963 8E5 Champ (Champ 6) 1962 Lark Daytona Convertible On eBay now...(Boomerang) 1995 VW Passat (Vanilla..yuk) 1994 Volvo 850 (Tilley) 1973 Volvo 1800 ES (Hyacinth Bucket)
wrenchsr@bellsouth.net - 31 Aug 2005 07:39 GMT Investment?? Money and the rising prices of parts and available automobiles that we and others like us enjoy will be the death of this hobby. An investor is like a used car salesman [or to be more blunt...a St. Louis pimp ] They pick up a cheap item, put new sneakers and a new dress on it, give it a bath and then expect to make a homerun on it. Most hobbiests own a car for an extended period of time. When it's sold it's like loosing a family member. Or turning your old girl friend over to a stranger. An investor's only interest is how much profit is in each deal, not what is best for the hobby. Money ruined amature drag racing, stock car racing, a competative motor is around 35K now. We used to race with a limit of about $200.00 a month. Car clubs used to be fun, if it moved under it's own power it was accepted, if you modified it and made it better, that was fine also. Now there is too much politics,snobbery , bigitry and cliqueishness that most people drop out. They just don't want to be around it at an advanced age. Hobbies are supposed to be fun and relaxing and enjoyable. Now I'll throw you a bone. For all of you needing wiper blades and arms. Try using IHC scout stuff, it's 11 inch length. Now if you abuse this you'll drive the prices up for the rest of us. John
59 Silver Hawk 60 Hawk 4- speed And yes I know it AIN"T original
Jeff Rice - 31 Aug 2005 12:14 GMT A little bitter there, John? Any hobby will go through an evolution as popularity changes. Studebakers are no different, and neither are the people in the hobby. As far as the money goes? Well, we are at the peak (or close to it, or just past it?) of a normal economic cycle. Money is cheap (relatively) and people with discretionary funds spend them on frivolous things....like Studebakers. No one 'has' to drive a Studebaker. It is a choice. Even those that insist that their Stude is their only means of transportation have made a choice. Is everyone able to support a frivolous hobby? Dunno... Their choice. Drag racing is a neat sport, where smashing up your pretty ride is the furthest thing from your mind. Because it drew money in and became an expensive sport is not a problem. That is a normal function of a growth industry, be it a hobby, or a career. You can still drag race on the cheap. You just have to step down to a lower level. Now...... Politics,snobbery , bigotry and cliquishness are probably the biggest reason for dropout of clubs and hobbies. Too bad, too... And we see it every day in this marques' clubs and chapters and organizations. But.... You bring to this club yourself......and then your toy. What you bring to a meeting or show is totally up to you. A ratty Studebaker that shows up at our meetings is more rewarded by others than the shiny new SUV that shows up with the a/c running full blast. Your focus on money misses the most important part of this hobby... It is the people. And how we interact. If money was the benchmark, then we'd almost all be in the 'Banking Club of America". Sure, money is the oil that leaks out of our Studebakers, but you either fix the leak, put more oil (money) in it, or run it until it quits. Too many quitters here..... And too many passing on.... Let's keep what is important in front of us. Jeff
<John wrote:..
> Investment?? > Money and the rising prices of parts and available automobiles that we [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > 60 Hawk 4- speed > And yes I know it AIN"T original ddstnkmp@yahoo.com - 31 Aug 2005 16:11 GMT John, If you are that bitter about your hobbies, change them. Misery is optional.
1. "the rising prices of parts and available automobiles that we and others like us enjoy will be the death of this hobby". Dig out your old TW's. I think you'll find that in most cases prices (adjusted for inflation) are about the same as they were 25 years ago. (There are exceptions, of course). I also believe that there are MORE people involved in the old car hobby than there were 25 years ago. I see the opposite of you. I see the hobby growing, not near death (subscribe to any car magazines?, go to any swap meets, car shows lately?)
2. "An investor's only interest is how much profit is in each deal, not what is best for the hobby." I think the hobby would be in trouble if there weren't people actually making money off of it. We wouldn't have SASCO, SI, Chuck, Phil and all the other "evil vendors" if there wasn't money to be made. There wouldn't be repro parts, eBay Motors, internet for sale listings, swap meets, etc. Buying and selling cars for a profit has been around since...well since there were cars. It's Capitalism. It's our economic system. Get over it.
3. "Now there is too much politics,snobbery , bigitry and cliqueishness that most people drop out" That's sort of like Yogi saying "no one goes there anymore...it's too crowded". In any large group of people, there will be some sh.t heads. Avoid them. IMHO, most car people are having fun, enjoying the hobby, and are great to be around.
4. "Money ruined amature drag racing, stock car racing, a competative motor is around 35K now." Amature racing wasn't REPLACED by big bucks racing. Look around. Amature racing is still there in all forms. If you need a $35k motor to be competitive, that's your problem. There are plenty of folks out there on local drag strips and fairgrounds round tracks having a great time for very little money.
5. Thanks for the tip on the Scout wiper blades. (but now if we actually buy them, and the prices go up due to increased demand, will you be angry?)
-Dick-
> Investment?? > Money and the rising prices of parts and available automobiles that we [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > 60 Hawk 4- speed > And yes I know it AIN"T original
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