Car Forum / Antique and Collectibles / Studebaker / September 2005
Gas prices, Labor Day 2006 (sort of OT)
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Jeff DeWitt - 06 Sep 2005 22:40 GMT For months the media has kept saying we had record high oil and gas prices, and until this past week it simply hasn’t been true. The record high was set in 1981 at just over $3 a gallon in inflation adjusted dollars, the only honest way to measure prices over time.
Many analysts believe we are experiencing an oil price bubble driven by speculation, much like the dot com bubble of the 90’s, and like that bubble this one will pop too.
For what it’s worth I’ve long believed the same thing.
Now Steve Forbes has come out saying he thinks the price of crude oil will be around $35 a barrel a year from now, half of what it is today.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16442408%255E2702, 00.html
http://money.cnn.com/2004/09/28/markets/bubble_crude/
Now is your chance to prognosticate.
What do you think the price of a barrel of crude oil will be on Labor Day weekend 2006?
What do you think the average price of a gallon of gas will be on Labor Day weekend 2006?
Mark Anderson - 06 Sep 2005 23:30 GMT Price of a barrel of crude oil on Labor Day weekend 2006?
$35.00 per barrel.
Average price of a gallon of gas will be on Labor Day weekend 2006?
$5.59 per gallon.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it. I predict we'll never see gas fall to under $2.00 per gallon again--no matter what it's selling for "per barrel". The oil companies are getting the price up where they want it, and they'll fight to keep it there even if they have to shut refineries down to create a crisis.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it:)
Mark
> For months the media has kept saying we had record high oil and gas > prices, and until this past week it simply hasn't been true. The record [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > What do you think the average price of a gallon of gas will be on Labor > Day weekend 2006? itraseecab@aol.com - 07 Sep 2005 03:32 GMT I agree. Between the rise in crude prices and now the "shortatge" due to Katrina, the oil companies have jacked the prices up so high that when they drop a few cents we will be happy, even if the price still is near $3 per gallon. Joe Roberts
> Price of a barrel of crude oil on Labor Day weekend 2006? > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > What do you think the average price of a gallon of gas will be on Labor > > Day weekend 2006? John Poulos - 07 Sep 2005 05:01 GMT I wasn't paying much attention to gas prices until today. I still have a full tank filling up near home from Atlantic City last week at $2.69, now $3.49. The casino responded quickly to the storm, just got a coupon for $50 in gas money if I drive up again. <g>
> I agree. Between the rise in crude prices and now the "shortatge" due > to Katrina, the oil companies have jacked the prices up so high that [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >>>What do you think the average price of a gallon of gas will be on Labor >>>Day weekend 2006?
 Signature JP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk 62 Lark 2 door 61 Hawk 60? Hawk 53 Starlight
--Shiva-- - 07 Sep 2005 04:35 GMT On 6 Sep 2005 15:30:34 -0700, you wrote:
>Price of a barrel of crude oil on Labor Day weekend 2006? > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Mark go look at the futures market.. I have HEARD, but NOT bothered to confirm, they guarantee a minimum price of $60 a barrel thru 2008 --Shiva--
Jeff DeWitt - 06 Sep 2005 23:38 GMT I'm thinking Forbes is a bit of an optimust.
Oil just under $40 a barrel
Gas around $1.75.
Jeff DeWitt
> For months the media has kept saying we had record high oil and gas > prices, and until this past week it simply hasn’t been true. The record [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > What do you think the average price of a gallon of gas will be on Labor > Day weekend 2006? jimandkathiekrise - 07 Sep 2005 01:01 GMT HMMMMMMM- didn't Forbes make a go for the presidency awhile back???
Jim
> For months the media has kept saying we had record high oil and gas > prices, and until this past week it simply hasn’t been true. The record [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > What do you think the average price of a gallon of gas will be on Labor > Day weekend 2006? Jeff DeWitt - 07 Sep 2005 01:15 GMT He sure did, he is also pushing his flat tax book (decent idea, but the FairTax is much better).
So what's your guess for gas and oil prices a year from now?
Jeff DeWitt
> HMMMMMMM- > didn't Forbes make a go for the presidency awhile back??? [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >>What do you think the average price of a gallon of gas will be on Labor >>Day weekend 2006? Kevin Wolford - 07 Sep 2005 02:55 GMT The availability of crude oil is not the problem with our domestic market right now. Refinery capacity has been limited because of governmental policy decisions and investment money flow since the mid 1970's. The last new refinery went on line in the U.S. in the late 1970's.
Until the refinery bottleneck is cured or demand falls, the price of gasoline will remain higher than it's relationship to the price of crude. It will take a couple years for new refining capacity to get online and have an impact. I suppose it could be done faster if the governmental red tape could be pushed aside and investors could be confident it's a sound move.
My personal opinion is that investors are skittish to invest in new refining capacity because of possible alternative fuel developments, and the fact the oil industry has been widely viewed as "politically incorrect" since the 1970's. Although there are more cars on the road today, they are more fuel efficient than those of decades past, and that has buffered the corresponding increase in demand that could have occurred. But, that payoff is about tapped out, both in raw numbers, and in any future reductions through efficiency.
Alternative fuel technologies that have been developed (like ethanol) use more energy to produce their product than they yield in a usable fuel, and they can't compete without subsidy, even at today's prices. (Tons and tons of coal or natural gas are used to heat the corn "soup" to make ethanol, for example). Other fuels would require significant changes in the delivery infrastructure.
Higher prices should draw new oil refinery capacity to market, if the government and public will allow it. Environmental groups certainly will block any new oil related capacity, as they have for 30 years. If they oil objectors remain successful, some alternative fuel system will eventually become cheaper than oil. The harder they block, the sooner it will happen. And, the more severe, costly and sudden the transition will be for us all.
My hope is the market is allowed to cure itself. It took us 30 years to create this problem. It won't go away in less than a year.
Rising fuel prices are actually a sign of real growth. An economic recession would certainly take pressure off prices.
My guess for fuel and crude prices next year:
Crude $40-$45 Fuel $1.95 - $2.25
Subsequent years depend on our future commitment to new refining capacity.
> For months the media has kept saying we had record high oil and gas > prices, and until this past week it simply hasn’t been true. The record [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > What do you think the average price of a gallon of gas will be on Labor > Day weekend 2006? Robert Black - 07 Sep 2005 03:34 GMT Here in Saint John New Brunswick,Irving Oil expanded their already huge refinery to twice its original capacity,withen the last five years. As more of you US people get to know our Irvings(their all over your north eastern States now) know that the Irvings don't make huge mistakes.They have been in the business since the start,and own most of NB.
> The availability of crude oil is not the problem with our domestic market > right now. Refinery capacity has been limited because of governmental [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] >> What do you think the average price of a gallon of gas will be on Labor >> Day weekend 2006? midlant@earthlink.net - 07 Sep 2005 03:39 GMT If Irving does that, they have good plans going. Are they on the stock market (Knowing that is doubtful.)
Karl
Kevin Wolford - 07 Sep 2005 03:55 GMT Imports of already refined product have jumped sharply over the past few years as demand has increased. Canadian and Mexican refineries are jumping in to take up the slack provided by our self imposed lack of refining capacity.
Refineries in other countries aren't likely to refine the specialized blends for certain metropolitan areas, though. This is part of the reason for regional differences in pricing, and why fuel is cheaper in rural markets.
I guess if we don't build it, someone else will (and already has been).
> Here in Saint John New Brunswick,Irving Oil expanded their already huge > refinery to twice its original capacity,withen the last five years. [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] >>> What do you think the average price of a gallon of gas will be on Labor >>> Day weekend 2006? Fieronut - 07 Sep 2005 20:23 GMT "The availability of crude oil is not the problem with our domestic market
right now. Refinery capacity has been limited because of governmental policy decisions and investment money flow since the mid 1970's."
I guess I'm just a dummy but it seems to me that if that is the case, wouldn't the price of oil go DOWN because there is less demand--less ability to refine it? The price of GAS might go up but the price of OIL should go down? Clue me in, please.
John
--Shiva-- - 07 Sep 2005 23:39 GMT On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 15:23:46 -0400, you wrote:
>The price of GAS might go up but the price of OIL >should go down? Clue me in, please. > >John china has gold and is buying AS MUCH AS THEY CAN --Shiva--
Fieronut - 08 Sep 2005 16:48 GMT >china has gold and is buying AS MUCH AS THEY CAN While they may be buying a lot of pretroleum, there are LOOOONG gas lines in China AND Hong Kong that says they are short on gas. In fact, one of my friends tells me that in some places, they can only buy 10 litres at a time. However, their gas cost only $1.87 a few days ago. Maybe we need to get it from THEM. ;-)
John
Kevin Wolford - 08 Sep 2005 02:38 GMT This is why many analysts say there is a bubble. Crude oil is being bid up on the fear of potential supply disruptions, not on any specific and documented supply problem. OPEC officials are even dumbfounded by the continual push up in prices over the last six months. The price of crude is determined on a futures trading market. The price of oil is set mostly by trader's emotions. Fears fueled by such events as the terrorist bombings in London, the predictions of a rough hurricane season, etc. have driven crude futures higher. The leader of OPEC was quoted the other morning on the radio as I drove to work, saying that the current price of crude oil is not justified and is not sustainable.
Domestic refining capacity, however, is running at 98% of capacity or better, especially during peak driving season . That's the reason one refinery fire or hurricane can send gas prices upward instantly. It's the reason fuel went up almost $1 a gallon recently, while oil only rose about $5 a barrel. (Crude Oil closed at about $65 a barrel today, down $4 from last week's close, or about 6%.)
Here in Indiana, some of my construction customers have been cut off from their fuel suppliers until the end of the month at least, due to the situation in the Gulf States. Some Independent gas stations are out of Diesel, and even a few are out of gas. I have a friend who drives a fuel tanker. The distribution issue is real right now. They only get so many loads allocated per day, and they are splitting loads between stations to avoid running a station out. Normally, as many loads as they could haul were available to them. Not so since last week.
It seems to be a good thing that this didn't happen earlier in the summer. Since demand falls off this time of year, it shouldn't become a full blown crisis if the downed refineries come back up shortly.
> "The availability of crude oil is not the problem with our domestic market > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > John transtar60 - 08 Sep 2005 02:55 GMT A constrution company building part of a new highway from I-64 to the new anticipated landlocked casino in Orange County(French Lick , IN) has stopped work and laid off its workers due to fuel costs. The company bid was not enough to cover the $6000 a day off road diesel costs and the contract penalty for not getting the work done on time is only $3000 a day. So they took the cheaper route.
> This is why many analysts say there is a bubble. Crude oil is being bid up > on the fear of potential supply disruptions, not on any specific and [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >> >>John Mertz Racing - 08 Sep 2005 05:24 GMT OK-this is not the first time I have heard someone refering to China buting up crude and other oil stocks.A friend in Tennessee first mentioned this,but I kinda blew it off as a bit of paranoid speculation. He claimed they are building storage tanks and buying up as much as they can to be prepaired for the end of middleastern oil imports when the middleasterners decide to stop selling oil and take over the world . He claimed this started after 9/11. So what have you heard/read?? How far out is his ideas??
John Poulos - 08 Sep 2005 05:52 GMT Not as big as are strategic reserve, nor good for more then a few months.:
"Thursday, November 18, 2004 - Page updated at 12:00 A.M.
Close-up China's growing thirst for oil seen driving its foreign policy
SHANGHAI — About a three-hour drive south of Shanghai, along the East China Sea, workers are building 52 gigantic tanks, each capable of holding more than 25 million gallons of oil — enough to supply every driver in China with gasoline for a month.
The storage tanks will help accommodate China's thirst for oil as it looks to fuel its booming economy. And it has plans to stockpile much, much more. "
> OK-this is not the first time I have heard someone refering to China > buting up crude and other oil stocks.A friend in Tennessee first [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > claimed this started after 9/11. So what have you heard/read?? How far > out is his ideas??
 Signature JP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk 62 Lark 2 door 61 Hawk 60? Hawk 53 Starlight
--Shiva-- - 09 Sep 2005 01:53 GMT On Thu, 8 Sep 2005 00:24:11 -0400, you wrote:
>So what have you heard/read?? How far >out is his ideas?? hey got a building/energy crunch is what I heard.. even making roads-concrete no less, and cars.. --Shiva--
--Shiva-- - 07 Sep 2005 23:25 GMT On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 20:55:41 -0500, you wrote:
>Although there are more cars on the road today, they are more fuel >efficient than those of decades past, I dont see it.. most of the new cars and SMALL trucks I see barely get 15MPG highway..EPA and anything HIGHER is usually foreign made
we could get in the 20's in the 50's..
--Shiva--
Kevin Wolford - 09 Sep 2005 03:24 GMT My 2000 Plymouth Breeze averaged 27 mpg overall. My 4600 lb. 2000 Chevrolet TrailBlazer averages 18 mpg, and carries 7 people.
My 1978 Dodge D200 got 8 mpg city, 8 mpg highway. 8 mpg loaded. 8 mpg empty. My parents 1974 Plymouth Sport Suburban wagon got 10 mpg. Their "compact" Chevy Nova with a 6 cyl and slushbox got about 18.
It's not unusual for a full size pickup to get in the high teens today. I can remember when owning a pickup meant you were in the "15 or under" club for sure!
Electronic fuel controls are the main reason for better mileage. Heck, the spark plug residue alone on newer cars can tell you there's less wasted fuel in newer engines.
Studebaker had great fuel mileage in the 50's and 60's. They also only had between 1% to 4% of the domestic market during those years, though!
> On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 20:55:41 -0500, you wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > --Shiva-- R W Hughes - 10 Sep 2005 00:44 GMT > I dont see it.. > most of the new cars and SMALL trucks I see barely get 15MPG > highway..EPA > and anything HIGHER is usually foreign made > > we could get in the 20's in the 50's.. My father kept a log book of every time he bought gas for his 1950 Land Cruiser with the 245 six and overdrive. I went through it one time and that car had averaged 12mpg since it was new.
 Signature Robert W. Hughes (Bob) BackYard Engineering 29:40.237N, 95:28.726W or perhaps 30:55.265N, 95:20.590W Houston, Texas "The city with too much Oxygen" rwhughe@oplink.net
--Shiva-- - 10 Sep 2005 01:29 GMT On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 18:44:42 -0500, you wrote:
>> we could get in the 20's in the 50's.. > >My father kept a log book of every time he bought gas for his 1950 Land >Cruiser with the 245 six and overdrive. I went through it one time and >that car had averaged 12mpg since it was new. ok, I stand corrected, we STILL dont get any milage.. a NEW (not a 00) but an 05 Ranger, 12 city, 15 highway EPA..(mid size V6, BTW) we are STILL in the dark ages as far as economy..
my chiropractors hubby just bought a new vehicle last week, and saw him today-asked how many MPG? slightly over 60..on an 800 CC cycle.. Japanese cars can get in the 50's..wifes boss regularly gets in the lo 50's, at 60 MPH WITH the air running.
American? we dont MAKE a 4 cylinder ECONOMICAL engine anymore. or even a 6..
--Shiva--
Kevin Wolford - 10 Sep 2005 04:00 GMT 2005 EPA estimates (automatic/4cyl)
Dodge Neon - 25/32 Ford Focus - 26/32 Chevrolet Cavalier - 24/34
Trucks (2WD, V6, AT)
Chevrolet C1500 - 16/21 Ford F150 - 15/20 Ford Ranger (4cyl 2WD) - 22/26
> On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 18:44:42 -0500, you wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > --Shiva-- --Shiva-- - 10 Sep 2005 04:01 GMT On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 22:00:15 -0500, you wrote:
>Ford Ranger (4cyl 2WD) - 22/26 try buying one.. not in MY neck of the woods..
and mine gets 21 with the V6. highway --Shiva--
Dexter - 10 Sep 2005 17:09 GMT My Lincoln Town car with over 140K has averaged 22.6 MPG over the last two years.
> On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 22:00:15 -0500, you wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > highway > --Shiva-- Mike Williams - 10 Sep 2005 18:31 GMT And I have a 2003 Taurus that consistently gets 29.5 on the highway with a V6. Don't ask what my Hawk gets <G> but I like to hear that supercharger whine. By the way TH recently rebuilt the SC and I could not be more pleased with the results. He does fantastic work. Just wanted to put in a public thanks! Now that he won't be doing them anymore his services are going to be missed! Not that Phil will do any less but he has a hard act to follow. Mike
> My Lincoln Town car with over 140K has averaged 22.6 MPG over the last two > years. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> highway >> --Shiva-- Dave's Place - 10 Sep 2005 23:00 GMT Times, they are a'changin.
Took a load of trash to town yesterday in Goliath. Pulled up to the dumpster, and saw a mom and a couple of young boys looking at the truck from a distance. Tossed the trash into the dumpster, turned around, and one of the boys (10-11 YOA) says, "What a neat old truck!" "Thank you," I sez. Then, I saw a question forming on his lips, and waited while he processed his thoughts.
He says, "How..." pause.
("Fast does it go?") I thought.
"Uh, How many...?"... pause.
("Were made?") I thought he might ask.
"How many miles does it get to the gallon?", he finally asks.
"Uh, ya know, I dunno, I never thought to check," was the only response I could come up with.
Yep, times have changed.
I might should check, eh? <G>
Dave Lester Dave's Place Home of the Internationally Renowned Studebakers, 'Sheba and Goliath See pictures at www.davesplaceinc.com
Grumpy AuContraire - 10 Sep 2005 23:49 GMT > Times, they are a'changin. > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Dave Lester Probably not as many as you would like...
JT
Dave's Place - 10 Sep 2005 23:50 GMT > Probably not as many as you would like... Yeah.
Some things, I just don't wanna know.
Still, I suspect that the truck, pulling the car, consumes somewhat less than the car and the truck going to the same place independently.
May not have to worry about taking one, the other, or both anywhere, if things keep going the way they are going. Hey, it's been a great ride, and most great rides don't last forever, eh?
 Signature Dave (At least I HAD a great ride, some folks never do.) Lester Dave's Place Home of the Internationally Renowned Studebakers, 'Sheba and Goliath See pictures at www.davesplaceinc.com
Grumpy AuContraire - 11 Sep 2005 01:24 GMT > > Probably not as many as you would like... > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Dave (At least I HAD a great ride, some folks never do.) Lester > Dave's Place I have to do major brake work on the T-Cab. I've purchased four Ch*by drums, linings and cylinders and will have the machining work done at Mark Frank's up in the Waco area. I was going to go up on Tuesday and stay over to Wednesday of next week. Then, I realize that the Denton meet is coming up and will go to that and stop by Mark's on the way back. At least a $60 saving while killing two boids wid da saim stune... I hope!
JT
Studeman - 12 Sep 2005 00:49 GMT > ok, I stand corrected, we STILL dont get any milage.. > a NEW (not a 00) but an 05 Ranger, 12 city, 15 highway EPA..(mid > size V6, BTW) > --Shiva-- > > SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH YOUR RANGER!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have owned (3) Rangers- all purchased NEW. (* all are 2WD)
1985 Range Std Cab- 2.3L EFI 4-cyl w/5speed: 27mpg all around driving, 28-29 Hwy- with a few tanks at 30-31 MPG Towed several cars on tow-dollys with it (short distances). Very good all around truck
1992 Ranger ext Cab. 3.0L 6cyl w/5speed: 24MPG all-around driving. 27MPG Hwy.. only kept 1-year (25K) because it lacked the power to tow a car on a trailer.
1993 Ext Cab- 4.0L 5-speed: 24 MPG all-around driving, consistant 27 MPG on trips. This truck was a HOSS.. I towed everything everywhere with this truck. I towed Linda's Hawk on my car trailer to Minnesota for the SDC National and back in 1994. Averaging 17 MPG for the trip. One stretch between Cinncinatti and Chicago was 21 MPG. I also hauled much heavier cars like a 1952 Packard 300 Sedan (about 70 miles) and a 1978 Cadillac Eldorado Biaritz (600+ miles) with no problems at all. The truck would easily maintain 65 MPH in 3rd gear up and down the mountains of West Virginia on I-79/I-77.
Now... if your truck is 4WD... and you let iut warm up 3 hours every morning... there might not be anything wrong with it...
Ray
--Shiva-- - 12 Sep 2005 02:37 GMT On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 23:49:24 GMT, you wrote:
>SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH YOUR RANGER!!!!!!!!!!!! > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >Ray those are NOT 05's tho.. the NEW ones are pretty low milage wise EPA rated.
the wifes new (to her) 96, gets 21 and its NOT a 4 wheel drive.. 3 sp auto with OD tranny. --Shiva--
Dick S. - 07 Sep 2005 03:10 GMT $105.00 a barrel $4.699 a gallon for the cheap stuff. He's wrong. Dick S.
> For months the media has kept saying we had record high oil and gas > prices, and until this past week it simply hasn’t been true. The record [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > What do you think the average price of a gallon of gas will be on Labor > Day weekend 2006? Alex Magdaleno - 07 Sep 2005 05:20 GMT $70 a barrel and over $3 at the pump. The demand from China and India is growing at an increasing rate.
> For months the media has kept saying we had record high oil and gas > prices, and until this past week it simply hasn’t been true. The record [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > What do you think the average price of a gallon of gas will be on Labor > Day weekend 2006?
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