Car Forum / Antique and Collectibles / Studebaker / September 2005
Timing Gear Replacement
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dfunct@sympatico.ca - 17 Sep 2005 20:19 GMT Hello, I'm new here, although I've lurked before.
I have a '58 Provicial with 259 automatic, and the other day it ate its timing gear. I've torn down the front to get to the gear, and about two thirds of the teeth are gone. Now for my questions:
The manual says to drop and clean the oil pan if the gear is heavily damaged - is this absolutely necessary? If so, any tips on getting the exhuast crossover off? (No torch available, I'm afraid.) The rest of it looks pretty straightforward.
Is there anything else I should be doing while I've got the car this far apart? Is the rear main seal easy to do once the pan is off? It's been leaking for years, but not bad enough to do anything.
I haven't checked/cleaned the oil bypass valve yet, but I did replace it a few years ago, and will be cleaning it before everything is back together.
One last question - I had the oil changed at the local Candain Tire a couple of days before the failure. Is there anything they could have done to cause this? I can't imagine what they could have done.
Sorry to start my relationship here with so many questions, but until this happened, I didn't think I really had anything interesting to contribute.
Thanks
John
p.s. Just for your interest, I also have a 57 Champion 2 door, and a 28 Dictator (not yet running).
John Poulos - 17 Sep 2005 20:39 GMT I find it hard to be believe the fiber bits would cause a problem unless they plugged up a oil passage. It's often impossible to get the pipe off without breaking a stud even with a torch so I'm no help there. You should replace the front seal with a modern neoprene style, the rear seal and pan gasket is a bitch to get right even with the engine on a stand, but it is possible in the car. Nothing you could do with a oil change to cause the problem.
> Hello, I'm new here, although I've lurked before. > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > p.s. Just for your interest, I also have a 57 Champion 2 door, and a > 28 Dictator (not yet running).
 Signature JP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk 62 Lark 2 door 61 Hawk 60? Hawk 53 Starlight
Lee - 17 Sep 2005 20:52 GMT Whatever it takes, get the pan off and clean it out. If the majority of that fiber gear is in the bottom of the pan, it WILL find its way to the oil pick-up tube and block oil flow to the block.
As far as getting the crossover off, it is a pain. Go to the hardware, WalMart, whatever, and get a MAPP gas torch. That will usually heat up the studs/nuts enough to get them loose. If not, buy a cheap sawz-all and cut the pipe off, remove the manifolds, and have the studs replaced.
>> Hello, I'm new here, although I've lurked before. >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >> p.s. Just for your interest, I also have a 57 Champion 2 door, and a >> 28 Dictator (not yet running). Lee DeLaBarre Daytona62
R1Lark - 18 Sep 2005 00:52 GMT >>It's often impossible to get the >>pipe off without breaking a stud even with a torch That's why I always use brass nuts on the headpipe.....I have had my share of broken studs too. But I have never had a problem on a car that had brass.
By the way, I am not talking about THOSE kind of brass nuts, Calvin<G>.
Paul
randee - 20 Sep 2005 01:04 GMT Brass is rather soft and galls easily. Far better to use either stainless, monel, or titanium. With appropriate antisieze. All available through McMasterCarr. -- wf.
> >>It's often impossible to get the > >>pipe off without breaking a stud even with a torch [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Paul Jeff DeWitt - 17 Sep 2005 21:33 GMT John,
Chances are it isn't your rear main seal that's leaking, it usually the pan gasket, that big piece of cork at the rear wasn't one of Studebakers best piece of engineering, while the seal hardly ever leaks.
When you replace the pan gasket you might try using a neoprene seal that Dwain talked about a while back, that piece of cork is a PAIN, especially if the engine is in the car. On some of those gasket sets the piece of cork is also too long and needs to be trimmed.
<http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.studebaker/browse_thread/thread/6c95084 ae07f9055/cb97d74b602f9016?q=Oil+pan+gasket&rnum=10&hl=en#cb97d74b602f9016>
Good luck!
Jeff DeWitt
> Hello, I'm new here, although I've lurked before. > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > p.s. Just for your interest, I also have a 57 Champion 2 door, and a > 28 Dictator (not yet running). Grumpy AuContraire - 17 Sep 2005 23:19 GMT > Hello, I'm new here, although I've lurked before. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > exhuast crossover off? (No torch available, I'm afraid.) The rest of > it looks pretty straightforward. Nutcracker for the exhaust nuts.
Additionally, to drop the pan, you must partially disassemble the steering. Remove the pinchbolt/nut on the bellcrank. Remove the four bolts that secure the bellcrank pin housing so that it can drop out, then push the bell crank and tie rods out of the way. Remove the starter.
Drop the pan. If there is no evidence of the crankshaft being damp (from oil) on the back side of the rear bearing cap, leave it alone.
Clean out the pan, install a new front seal, (Neoprene if you have the time), and reassemble the whole shabang and press on...
JT
dfunct@sympatico.ca - 18 Sep 2005 00:44 GMT Wow, 4 replies in just a few hours!
Here's an idea I had, and tell me whether it's crazy or not. I wondered about draining the oil, and then with the plug still out, pouring some solvent down the oil filler (it does lead straight to the pan, doesn't it?) to was out the bits. Then, leave the whole thing open a few days to let the solvent evaporate, and re-assemble. As you may be able to tell, I really don't want to remove that pan!
Anyway, thanks again for the input.
Lee - 18 Sep 2005 00:54 GMT It might work but I would not take the chance
>Wow, 4 replies in just a few hours! > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Anyway, thanks again for the input. Lee DeLaBarre Daytona62
Grumpy AuContraire - 18 Sep 2005 11:30 GMT Yeah... Might get a colony of two of mud daubbers not to mention airborne dirt etc. I do agree that a shortcut might lead to problems later.
JT
> It might work but I would not take the chance > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Lee DeLaBarre > Daytona62 Alex Magdaleno - 18 Sep 2005 06:07 GMT Interesting idea. I might be tempted to try it. If you do, watch your oil pressure real close for a few days at least and see if it drops due to clogging.
> Wow, 4 replies in just a few hours! > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Anyway, thanks again for the input. Gordon Richmond - 18 Sep 2005 09:12 GMT Well, if you already have the timing cover off, you could remove the oil pan drain plug, and then squirt solvent into the pan through the gap between the front oil pan filler block and the front main bearing cap. You can sort of see into the front of the pan there.
The pan has bit of a horizontal baffle on about the same level as the raised front portion of the pan bottom, and this extends a few inches out over the deeper part of the pan. I'd be concerned that timing gear debris could be lodged there. Squirting solvent in from the front would probably help to dislodge that.
Drain the oil and the solvent flush through a kitchen sieve to catch the debris, so you can estimate if you've got it all.
Once done, fill it up with cheap but clean oil, run it until the engine is warmed up, watching the pressure gage like a hawk all the time, then shut down and do a hot oil change for your regular good oil.
Gord Richmond
Ron - 18 Sep 2005 13:55 GMT And don't forget to clean the pressure relief valve. In fact, if it was plugged, it may have contributed to the timing gear failure.
>Well, if you already have the timing cover off, you could remove the >oil pan drain plug, and then squirt solvent into the pan through the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Gord Richmond Ron/Champ 6
1963 8E5 Champ (Champ 6) 1995 VW Passat (Vanilla..yuk) 1994 Volvo 850 (Tilley) 1973 Volvo 1800 ES (Hyacinth Bucket)
64daytonaht - 18 Sep 2005 19:35 GMT There is no easy way of doing this and doing it correctly. While your this far down, you really need to clean the pan throughly. Putting solvent in the thing isn't going to accomplish anything, except to loosen the grunge/slug. The worst thing you want. You really need to take the engine out, put it on a stand, take the pan off, take the valley cover off, take the oil pump screen off, knock the water jacket plugs out.
With all of this done, you need to clean the water jackets out, flush them (ie, block) and put new plugs in. Next you need to clean the slug out of the valley (don't dump solvent in it, or you'll likely contaminate the engine. Then soak the oil pickup screen in solvent to clean it out and remove any hardened slug that may have accumulated on the screen, or in the tube (this crap usually causes restriction and thus low oil pressure). You will need to do the same thing to the oil pressure relief valve. When you take it out pay particular attention to the way it was in there. It has a large opening and a small one. Get the piston turned around and you lose oil. Clean the oil pan out throughly.
At this point, it is a good idea to check the rear main, just to make certain that the leak you had was indeed the upper cork rear pan gasket. The upper pan gasket is usually the culprit, but you never know and it really pays to make certain. Replace all the gaskets and especially the front felt seal.
I strongly recommend that you install one of the aluminum timing gears, so as to avoid this operation a second time.
Trust me, you don't want to half a.s this job. If you do, it will bite you in the a.s and cost a bunch more time and money to correct the bigger problem you'll have.
Bo
> Hello, I'm new here, although I've lurked before. > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > p.s. Just for your interest, I also have a 57 Champion 2 door, and a > 28 Dictator (not yet running). 64daytonaht - 18 Sep 2005 19:38 GMT Reference relief valve, that should read lose oil pressure. <G>
Bo
> There is no easy way of doing this and doing it correctly. While your > this far down, you really need to clean the pan throughly. Putting [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] >> p.s. Just for your interest, I also have a 57 Champion 2 door, and a >> 28 Dictator (not yet running).
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