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Car Forum / Antique and Collectibles / Studebaker / September 2005

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Timing Gear Replacement

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dfunct@sympatico.ca - 17 Sep 2005 20:19 GMT
Hello, I'm new here, although I've lurked before.

I have a '58 Provicial with 259 automatic, and the other day it ate its
timing gear.  I've torn down the front to get to the gear, and about
two thirds of the teeth are gone.  Now for my questions:

The manual says to drop and clean the oil pan if the gear is heavily
damaged - is this absolutely necessary?  If so, any tips on getting the
exhuast crossover off?  (No torch available, I'm afraid.)  The rest of
it looks pretty straightforward.

Is there anything else I should be doing while I've got the car this
far apart?  Is the rear main seal easy to do once the pan is off?  It's
been leaking for years, but not bad enough to do anything.

I haven't checked/cleaned the oil bypass valve yet, but I did replace
it a few years ago, and will be cleaning it before everything is back
together.

One last question - I had the oil changed at the local Candain Tire a
couple of days before the failure.  Is there anything they could have
done to cause this?  I can't imagine what they could have done.

Sorry to start my relationship here with so many questions, but until
this happened, I didn't think I really had anything interesting to
contribute.

Thanks

John

p.s.  Just for your interest, I also have a 57 Champion 2 door, and a
28 Dictator (not yet running).
John Poulos - 17 Sep 2005 20:39 GMT
    I find it hard to be believe the fiber bits would cause a problem
unless they plugged up a oil passage. It's often impossible to get the
pipe off without breaking a stud even with a torch so I'm no help there.
You should replace the front seal with a modern neoprene style, the rear
seal and pan gasket is a bitch to get right even with the engine on a
stand, but it is possible in the car.  Nothing you could do with a oil
change to cause the problem.

> Hello, I'm new here, although I've lurked before.
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> p.s.  Just for your interest, I also have a 57 Champion 2 door, and a
> 28 Dictator (not yet running).

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JP/Maryland
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Lee - 17 Sep 2005 20:52 GMT
Whatever it takes, get the pan off and clean it out.  If the majority
of that fiber gear is in the bottom of the pan, it WILL find its way
to the oil pick-up tube and block oil flow to the block.

As far as getting the crossover off, it is a pain.  Go to the
hardware, WalMart, whatever, and get a MAPP gas torch.  That will
usually heat up the studs/nuts enough to get them loose.  If not, buy
a cheap sawz-all and cut the pipe off, remove the manifolds, and have
the studs replaced.

>> Hello, I'm new here, although I've lurked before.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>> p.s.  Just for your interest, I also have a 57 Champion 2 door, and a
>> 28 Dictator (not yet running).

Lee DeLaBarre
Daytona62
R1Lark - 18 Sep 2005 00:52 GMT
>>It's often impossible to get the
>>pipe off without breaking a stud even with a torch

That's why I always use brass nuts on the headpipe.....I have had my
share of broken studs too. But I have never had a problem on a car that
had brass.

By the way, I am not talking about THOSE kind of brass nuts, Calvin<G>.

Paul
randee - 20 Sep 2005 01:04 GMT
Brass is rather soft and galls easily.  Far better to use either
stainless, monel, or titanium.  With appropriate antisieze.  All
available through McMasterCarr.
--
wf.

> >>It's often impossible to get the
> >>pipe off without breaking a stud even with a torch
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Paul
Jeff DeWitt - 17 Sep 2005 21:33 GMT
John,

Chances are it isn't your rear main seal that's leaking, it usually the
pan gasket, that big piece of cork at the rear wasn't one of Studebakers
best piece of engineering, while the seal hardly ever leaks.

When you replace the pan gasket you might try using a neoprene seal that
Dwain talked about a while back, that piece of cork is a PAIN,
especially if the engine is in the car.  On some of those gasket sets
the piece of cork is also too long and needs to be trimmed.

<http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.studebaker/browse_thread/thread/6c95084
ae07f9055/cb97d74b602f9016?q=Oil+pan+gasket&rnum=10&hl=en#cb97d74b602f9016
>

Good luck!

Jeff DeWitt

> Hello, I'm new here, although I've lurked before.
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> p.s.  Just for your interest, I also have a 57 Champion 2 door, and a
> 28 Dictator (not yet running).
Grumpy AuContraire - 17 Sep 2005 23:19 GMT
> Hello, I'm new here, although I've lurked before.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> exhuast crossover off?  (No torch available, I'm afraid.)  The rest of
> it looks pretty straightforward.

Nutcracker for the exhaust nuts.

Additionally, to drop the pan, you must partially disassemble the
steering.  Remove the pinchbolt/nut on the bellcrank. Remove the four
bolts that secure the bellcrank pin housing so that it can drop out,
then push the bell crank and tie rods out of the way.  Remove the starter.

Drop the pan.  If there is no evidence of the crankshaft being damp
(from oil) on the back side of the rear bearing cap, leave it alone.

Clean out the pan, install a new front seal, (Neoprene if you have the
time), and reassemble the whole shabang and press on...

JT
dfunct@sympatico.ca - 18 Sep 2005 00:44 GMT
Wow, 4 replies in just a few hours!

Here's an idea I had, and tell me whether it's crazy or not.  I
wondered about draining the oil, and then with the plug still out,
pouring some solvent down the oil filler (it does lead straight to the
pan, doesn't it?) to was out the bits.  Then, leave the whole thing
open a few days to let the solvent evaporate, and re-assemble.   As you
may be able to tell, I really don't want to remove that pan!

Anyway, thanks again for the input.
Lee - 18 Sep 2005 00:54 GMT
It might work but I would not take the chance

>Wow, 4 replies in just a few hours!
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Anyway, thanks again for the input.

Lee DeLaBarre
Daytona62
Grumpy AuContraire - 18 Sep 2005 11:30 GMT
Yeah...  Might get a colony of two of mud daubbers not to mention
airborne dirt etc.  I do agree that a shortcut might lead to problems later.

JT

> It might work but I would not take the chance
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Lee DeLaBarre
> Daytona62
Alex Magdaleno - 18 Sep 2005 06:07 GMT
Interesting idea.  I might be tempted  to try it. If you do, watch your oil
pressure real close for a few days at least and see if it drops due to
clogging.

> Wow, 4 replies in just a few hours!
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Anyway, thanks again for the input.
Gordon Richmond - 18 Sep 2005 09:12 GMT
Well, if you already have the timing cover off, you could remove the
oil pan drain plug, and then squirt solvent into the pan through the
gap between the front oil pan filler block and the front main bearing
cap. You can sort of see into the front of the pan there.

The pan has bit of a horizontal baffle on about the same level as the
raised front portion of the pan bottom, and this extends a few inches
out over the deeper part of the pan. I'd be concerned that timing gear
debris could be lodged there. Squirting solvent in from the front
would probably help to dislodge that.

Drain the oil and the solvent flush through a kitchen sieve to catch
the debris, so you can estimate if you've got it all.

Once done, fill it up with cheap but clean oil, run it until the
engine is warmed up, watching the pressure gage like a hawk all the
time, then shut down and do a hot oil change for your regular good
oil.

Gord Richmond
Ron - 18 Sep 2005 13:55 GMT
And don't forget to clean the pressure relief valve. In fact, if it
was plugged, it may have contributed to the timing gear failure.

>Well, if you already have the timing cover off, you could remove the
>oil pan drain plug, and then squirt solvent into the pan through the
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>Gord Richmond

Ron/Champ 6

1963 8E5 Champ (Champ 6)
1995 VW Passat (Vanilla..yuk)
1994 Volvo 850 (Tilley)
1973 Volvo 1800 ES (Hyacinth Bucket)
64daytonaht - 18 Sep 2005 19:35 GMT
There is no easy way of doing this and doing it correctly.  While your this
far down, you really need to clean the pan throughly.  Putting solvent in
the thing isn't going to accomplish anything, except to loosen the
grunge/slug.  The worst thing you want.  You really need to take the engine
out, put it on a stand, take the pan off, take the valley cover off, take
the oil pump screen off, knock the water jacket plugs out.

With all of this done, you need to clean the water jackets out, flush them
(ie, block) and put new plugs in.  Next you need to clean the slug out of
the valley (don't dump solvent in it, or you'll likely contaminate the
engine.  Then soak the oil pickup screen in solvent to clean it out and
remove any hardened slug that may have accumulated on the screen, or in the
tube (this crap usually causes restriction and thus low oil pressure).  You
will need to do the same thing to the oil pressure relief valve.  When you
take it out pay particular attention to the way it was in there.  It has a
large opening and a small one.  Get the piston turned  around and you lose
oil.  Clean the oil pan out throughly.

At this point, it is a good idea to check the rear main, just to make
certain that the leak you had was indeed the upper cork rear pan gasket.
The upper pan gasket is usually the culprit, but you never know and it
really pays to make certain. Replace all the gaskets and especially the
front felt seal.

I strongly recommend that you install one of the aluminum timing gears, so
as to avoid this operation a second time.

Trust me, you don't want to half a.s this job.  If you do, it will bite you
in the a.s and cost a bunch more time and money to correct the bigger
problem you'll have.

Bo

> Hello, I'm new here, although I've lurked before.
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> p.s.  Just for your interest, I also have a 57 Champion 2 door, and a
> 28 Dictator (not yet running).
64daytonaht - 18 Sep 2005 19:38 GMT
Reference relief valve, that should read lose oil pressure.
<G>

Bo

> There is no easy way of doing this and doing it correctly.  While your
> this far down, you really need to clean the pan throughly.  Putting
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
>> p.s.  Just for your interest, I also have a 57 Champion 2 door, and a
>> 28 Dictator (not yet running).
 
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