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Car Forum / Antique and Collectibles / Studebaker / September 2005

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John Poulos - 18 Sep 2005 18:16 GMT
Lee e-mailed me about a GT Hawk with a more then fair Buy It Now on
ebay. I'd missed it because the $100 starting bid placed it way now in
my sort by price order. When I called, the seller has just talked to a
guy that he'd spent a hour with on the phone going over every inch of
the car. The guy told him he's think about it and watch the auction
before he'd bid.  He was hoping it would sell for less, I feared it
would hit reserve and go higher, so I hit the BIN. Two different ways of
looking at it. Maybe I paid too much by jumping, maybe he lost a decent
deal. I'll do the brakes, floors, add carpets, hydovac, new front bumper
and detail the car and see what happens. (I love buffing black paint)<g>

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4576272823
Signature

JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
62 Lark 2 door
61 Hawk
60? Hawk
53 Starlight

N8N - 18 Sep 2005 18:20 GMT
> Lee e-mailed me about a GT Hawk with a more then fair Buy It Now on
> ebay. I'd missed it because the $100 starting bid placed it way now in
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
> 62 Lark 2 door

Looks like a factory 4bbl.  If you can find a disc brake Hydrovac for
it I think you probably did all right.

nate
> 61 Hawk
> 60? Hawk
> 53 Starlight
John Poulos - 18 Sep 2005 18:24 GMT
     I bought a NOS disk brake unit with the car.

> Looks like a factory 4bbl.  If you can find a disc brake Hydrovac for
> it I think you probably did all right.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> 60? Hawk
>> 53 Starlight

Signature

JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
62 Lark 2 door
61 Hawk
60? Hawk
53 Starlight

GTtim - 19 Sep 2005 00:59 GMT
I think you did just fine.  Now all you have to do is get it home,
that's always the rub isn't it?  Looks like a real solid car with good
interior and the right equipment.  You definitely didn't pay too much.
Tim K.
John Poulos - 19 Sep 2005 01:37 GMT
   Shipping on a runner from Jacksonville to me in Md, is around
$500-$600, not that bad.

> I think you did just fine.  Now all you have to do is get it home,
> that's always the rub isn't it?  Looks like a real solid car with good
> interior and the right equipment.  You definitely didn't pay too much.
> Tim K.

Signature

JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
62 Lark 2 door
61 Hawk
60? Hawk
53 Starlight

Jeff Grohs - 19 Sep 2005 04:31 GMT
>      I bought a NOS disk brake unit with the car.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>> 60? Hawk
>>> 53 Starlight

speaking of which, the "disk brake" hydrovac I got a year or so ago
wasn't, so I'm looking again for one.

Jeff
John Poulos - 19 Sep 2005 04:43 GMT
   I have 3 coming back from a rebuilder, maybe one is disk brake. BTW,
the regular will work, just slightly more pedal pressure.

>>      I bought a NOS disk brake unit with the car.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Jeff

Signature

JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
62 Lark 2 door
61 Hawk
60? Hawk
53 Starlight

oldcarfart - 19 Sep 2005 14:18 GMT
John, call me about this car & seller.
64daytonaht - 19 Sep 2005 14:29 GMT
This has all the makings of an ominous deal. <G>

Bo

> John, call me about this car & seller.
Paul Johnson - 19 Sep 2005 01:43 GMT
> Lee e-mailed me about a GT Hawk with a more then fair Buy It Now on ebay.
> I'd missed it because the $100 starting bid placed it way now in my sort
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> He was hoping it would sell for less, I feared it would hit reserve and go
> higher, so I hit the BIN. ...

I wondered how you had missed it when I saw it this am.  Looks like a super
buy to me.
Paul Johnson
John Poulos - 19 Sep 2005 01:49 GMT
   I learned a important lesson, never start with that low a starting
bid. I sort by price so all the cars will show up first and he was
buried in the parts with one $100 bid. You, Lee and others have saved my
butt more then once when I overlooked a bargain.

>> Lee e-mailed me about a GT Hawk with a more then fair Buy It Now on ebay.
>> I'd missed it because the $100 starting bid placed it way now in my sort
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> buy to me.
> Paul Johnson

Signature

JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
62 Lark 2 door
61 Hawk
60? Hawk
53 Starlight

Studebaker George - 19 Sep 2005 03:06 GMT
John, that car was on ebay a few days ago with the same BIN.  A friend
here in town hit the button, but after talking with the guy and finding
out all the things that were NOT mentioned in the FIRST ebay ad, my
friend decided not to do the purchase.  I don't know if the seller is
anyone we all know, but his presentation and semi-truths about the car
set off fire alarms.  Seller admitted that he should have told more
about the car's needs and that the hole in the floor was big enough to
put your foot through.  In the original ad he said some POR would fix
the rust.  He also stated that it drove just fine and needed only
cosmetics.  When we said we would come drive it back (less than 200
miles) he started telling the truths about it.  I see he corrected his
earlier ad and if he had been a little more truthful my friend would
have bought it. The car is probably worth the money, but like I said,
fire alarms went off for many reasons.  I hope the car is a decent one.
Studebaker George
John Poulos - 19 Sep 2005 04:36 GMT
   I was told about the floor rust, not supposed to be quite that bad,
but no big deal if it is. He did buy a POR 15 floor kit that goes with
the car and said the weak area is about 10 inches by 12 inches right in
front of the master cylinder hole. He's not happy with the brakes, it
needs new disk pads and the lack of a booster would make it less than
fun to drive. (pads come with the car, and I bought a NOS booster) He
says " The car does stop, but not as quick as it should, so I wouldn't
plan on driving the car until the brake job is completed."I personally
don't worry about mechanical issues as long as the exterior is rust
free. His BIN was less then half average book, so it'll be hard to get
hurt.

> John, that car was on ebay a few days ago with the same BIN.  A friend
> here in town hit the button, but after talking with the guy and finding
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> fire alarms went off for many reasons.  I hope the car is a decent one.
> Studebaker George

Signature

JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
62 Lark 2 door
61 Hawk
60? Hawk
53 Starlight

Studebaker George - 19 Sep 2005 15:16 GMT
Sounds like you are justifying the price to yourself.. And your comment
about the EXTERIOR being rust free...what about the IMPORTANT stuff,
like the FLOORS and TRUNK?  I know, people buy according to what they
see on the outside, but the guy's attitude and description (at least to
my buddy) sounded like he was not being totally truthful and actually
trying to scare him away.  This same friend bought and still owns a 63
GT that people stayed away from because it showed some rust on the
front fenders.  The rest of the car has NO rust.  There were other
things about the car that kept the deal from finishing, and when we
calculated what the car needed without even looking at it, my friend
said phoey on it.  For someone doing the work themselves, it could be a
decent deal, but if the work had to be done by a shop the car would be
too much.  I figured at LEAST a thousand for the brakes (remember that
the car sat for several years) and most likely more.  You could patch
them for a lot less, but you will have just that, a patch job.  That
brings the price to fifty eight and then add shipping.  Misc. items
tilt it to seven and then you have the other issues to deal with from a
car that sat for years and has a spotty history.  For someone who is
not mechanically inclined, that car is definately NOT a good deal and
deserves a "pass".  I could have told my friend to buy it and then made
a bunch of $$ fixing it for him, but I would rather be brutally honest
and have a happy customer and friend.  I hope the car works out for you
and I know we will get a report of what it looks like in person which
will be interesting to hear.  
Studebaker George
64daytonaht - 19 Sep 2005 16:27 GMT
George,

Send all those brake customers to me!  I'll do basic brake jobs on
Studebakers all day long for $1,000.00.  Dam it!  I've been charging
$600.00, or less!
<G>

Bo
John Poulos - 19 Sep 2005 16:59 GMT
   Doing disk brakes myself, it's

$150 for new rear wheel cylinders (Disks are more then double the money)
$45 Master Cylinder
New hoses $75
Caliper kits $50
pads

Total $340

> George,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Bo

Signature

JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
62 Lark 2 door
61 Hawk
60? Hawk
53 Starlight

Studebaker George - 20 Sep 2005 01:33 GMT
Problem is that there is no such thing anymore as a "basic" brake job
on these cars.  The one in question will most likely need wheel
cylinders, disc hydraulic stuff, hoses, steel lines, etc.  While you
are there, what about bearings front and rear?  At the least, they will
need repacking and new seals.  Then, you might as well do some other
odds and ends...and that car needs a booster, too.  Do the math, factor
in labor, and you have shot past a thou unless you work for almost
nothing.  I have spent almost my entire adult life as a professional
wrench, and I'll be darned if I am going to work for next to nothing.
FORTY FIVE an hour take it or leave it is what I now tell everyone, and
that is cheap!  If I have to spend an extra hour on a rusty or stripped
part, the customer sucks it up, not me.  I spend most of my time
straightening out DIY and "professional" mechanics work, and THAT is
extra also.  The car in question most likely needs a thou worth of
brake work if it was taken to any reputable shop.  I have a car here
right now that supposedly had a thou of brake work done and the old
master cylinder and lines are still on it.  I also have another car in
the shop where a "well known pro with a good reputation" did some work
on it and sent it out the door with a water pump raising hell...said it
was good to go on a hundred mile trip..  
Studebaker George
Jeff Rice - 20 Sep 2005 02:08 GMT
You didn't mention the 'lost time' in your shop do to bozo's showing up
unannounced and taking up your valuable time just bs'ing and wandering
around.
Jeff (Who would do something like that? <g>) Rice

"Studebaker George" wrote...
> Problem is that there is no such thing anymore as a "basic" brake job
> on these cars.  The one in question will most likely need wheel
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> was good to go on a hundred mile trip..
> Studebaker George
Studebaker George - 20 Sep 2005 02:23 GMT
At least you didn't want me to spend several hours explaining how to
fix something and then ask if you could use a lift for a few
days....and some tools...and maybe the key to the shop..
Studebaker George
Jeff Rice - 20 Sep 2005 02:27 GMT
Hmmmm..  I can do all that, too?
Jeff ( Do you have any beer?...) Rice

"Studebaker George"  wrote...
> At least you didn't want me to spend several hours explaining how to
> fix something and then ask if you could use a lift for a few
> days....and some tools...and maybe the key to the shop..
> Studebaker George
Studebaker George - 20 Sep 2005 02:44 GMT
I don't have a fridge at the shop but I have several coolers...bring me
a couple Metropolitan Torpedoes and you can use everything....BTW, did
you see the press?  I got one from MSC at a GREAT price!
Studebaker George
Jeff Rice - 20 Sep 2005 03:03 GMT
Metropolitan Torpedoes ???
Jeff ( I didn't know she was in town! ) Rice

"Studebaker George" wrote...
>I don't have a fridge at the shop but I have several coolers...bring me
> a couple Metropolitan Torpedoes and you can use everything....BTW, did
> you see the press?  I got one from MSC at a GREAT price!
> Studebaker George
John Poulos - 20 Sep 2005 03:23 GMT
    Sounds like we basically just see the market differently. I expect
to put some time and money in a 5K GT Hawk. It will be here next week
and I'll get started.

> Problem is that there is no such thing anymore as a "basic" brake job
> on these cars.  The one in question will most likely need wheel
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> was good to go on a hundred mile trip..  
> Studebaker George

Signature

JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
62 Lark 2 door
61 Hawk
60? Hawk
53 Starlight

64daytonaht - 20 Sep 2005 05:01 GMT
George,

I could make a grand on a brake job, too.  If I wanted to make work and sell
people extra parts and service they don't necessarily need.  New seals good
idea, new bearings, new lines why?  I never assume something is bad until I
prove it is.  Upgrade to dual M/C add $150.00 for cyl. and extra plumbing
required.  If someone wants an axle job, that's a different story all
together.  Why sell people stuff they don't really need?  Certainly, you
check the lines throughly for penetrating rust/corrosion and you
flush/presure check the system.  If you put 300 psi into the line and it
holds, I'd say there's a pretty good chance it ain't broke!  If it ain't
broke why fix it?  If your going to restore something and your a worry wort,
then by all means replace every thing on the car.  It's all at least 40
years old.  Hell, just replace drums, hubs, spindles, Jesus nuts, bolts,
washers, carter keys (this one I do replace), springs, waffers, cams,
adjusters.  The brake job of the future $4,000.00!  And that doesn't include
washing the white walls!

Deluxe brake job:

4 New wheel cyl.       $112.00
1 Rebuilt booster      $100.00
1 New master cyl.     $  65.00
3 New Flex hoses     $  60.00
4 Drums turned         $  50.00
1 Brake line kit          $  50.00
8 hrs. lbr @ $40.00   $320.00
                                -----------
                               $757.00
Tax          8.25%      $  62.45
                              ------------
                               $819.45

Pain/suffering fee    $300.00
                              ------------
                             $1,119.45

Std brake job:

4 New wheel cyl.       $112.00
1 New Master cyl.     $  65.00
3 New flex hoses      $  60.00
4 Drums turmed        $  50.00
4 hrs. lbr @ $40.00   $160.00
                               ------------
                                $447.00
Tax 8.25%                $ 36.88
                                -----------
                                $483.88

Pain/suffering fee     $300.00
                               ------------
                                $783.88

Axle bearing/seal job:

Front seals pr.          $14.00
R&R seal .4 hr          $16.00
R&R-Pk brgs .6 hr.    $24.00
Rear seals (inner) 2  $25.00
R&R seal .4 hr          $16.00
R&R-Pk brgs  .6 hr.   $24.00
Outer seals               $33.60
R&R axles 1hr.          $40.00
                               -----------
                               $192.60
Tax 8.25%                $ 15.89
                               ------------
                               $208.49
Pain/suffering fee     $300.00
                              -------------
                               $508.49

Yep! If I add that ole pain/suffering fee into all my work I think I'll have
enough to retire on, again, in a couple of years.  All right!  All you
Studebaker owners step up and take it like a man!  It don't get no cheaper
then this! <G>

Bo
John Poulos - 20 Sep 2005 05:19 GMT
I've got a production line going. If I'm in a hurry I replace all the
wheel cylinders and the master cylinder and toss the cores in a box. In
between cars, I pick out the good cores, toss them in the deruster, hone
and kit them. That means the next brake job could cost well under $150
with just kits and hoses. I finally found a source for rebuilt hydovacs,
so I keep them in stock, along with a bunch of new steel brake line.

  With all the GT Hawks I've done or parted out, I seldom buy many
parts and that makes it easier and cheaper to prep a new one. If I'm
doing a show car, I'll pull and save "nice" but not perfect trim or
parts for later use on a driver.

> George,
>
[quoted text clipped - 75 lines]
>
> Bo

Signature

JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
62 Lark 2 door
61 Hawk
60? Hawk
53 Starlight

64daytonaht - 20 Sep 2005 12:53 GMT
Absolutely agree.  I never throw anything away that is usable, and I all
ways give the customer the choice between rebuilt and new.  My point here is
that a brake job need not cost an arm and both legs.  Seldom have I ever had
to go to such extremes to ensure the job was done right, or to make a little
money.  I've only seen a few instances where every single component on the
vehicle.  Besides that, I usually don't charge any extra labor for packing
the bearings and only charge for the seals.

I just don't believe you have to over charge someone for service, or
additional parts they don't necessarily need.

Bo
64daytonaht - 20 Sep 2005 12:39 GMT
Ooooops!  I knew I forgot something.  Add another $65.00 for 4 new brake
shoes.

Bo

> George,
>
[quoted text clipped - 75 lines]
>
> Bo
Studebaker George - 20 Sep 2005 12:55 GMT
Ok Bo, you asked for it so here it goes...YOUR brake  abilities are
well known on this newsgroup; have you forgotten that you and JP went
at it because of YOUR inept handling of brakes on your own car?  Yeah,
I really want YOU fixing brakes. Maybe you had better go back to school
or start bringing your cars to someone better qualified... AND, I was
giving an estimate without seeing the car.  I don't replace parts just
for the hell of it.  Estimate high and hope for the best.  Less
surprises that way.  Your parts prices don't jive, either.  EVERY GOOD
SHOP marks up the parts even if it is just a little, it pays for things
like utilities, property taxes, time involved ordering/chasing, etc.
You obviously have never been in the "biz"...and maybe you don't belong
there.  All through this thread I was looking at it from a professional
shop/mechanic standpoint, not a DIY point.  Sure people can save money
by being a DIYer, but a lot of people just want it fixed and fixed
RIGHT.  AND THAT COSTS MONEY!
Studebaker George
Jeff Rice - 20 Sep 2005 13:24 GMT
Interesting thread.
I find it amazing to see the liabilities that a vendor exposes himself to
when working on the number one safety component on a vehicle.
All it takes is one incident and one litigious person.
I have seen lawsuits filed and won because of work orders saying, or not
saying a couple of words, and that's just the paperwork.
Imagine what a lawyer would do to someone in a courtroom when they ask "How
did you rebuild that part?", and the reply was, "I soaked it in a garbage
can in my driveway". Could be an expensive day.
I am not passing judgement here, just pointing out potential trouble.

Jeff (and Usenet post's hang around for a long, long time....) Rice
John Poulos - 20 Sep 2005 15:05 GMT
Jeff, if we had to worry about being sued over every post we made, we'd
never give ANY advice. <g> We've helped each other with so many tips
that could potentially kill you that I could never keep track.
  Repairing gas tanks, using torches, installing springs and such have
all been addressed and we may have left out a OSHA rule or two. <g>

> Interesting thread.
> I find it amazing to see the liabilities that a vendor exposes himself to
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Jeff (and Usenet post's hang around for a long, long time....) Rice

Signature

JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
62 Lark 2 door
61 Hawk
60? Hawk
53 Starlight

Jeff Rice - 20 Sep 2005 15:26 GMT
Hey,
I was just covering MY a.s when the lawsuits start flying <lol>...
Jeff ( You'ze perfeshunulz are off on your own! <gg>...) Rice

"John Poulos" wrote...
> Jeff, if we had to worry about being sued over every post we made, we'd
> never give ANY advice. <g> We've helped each other with so many tips that
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>>
>> Jeff (and Usenet post's hang around for a long, long time....) Rice
64daytonaht - 20 Sep 2005 14:23 GMT
Not to dissappoint you George, but your information is as piss poor as your
PROFESSIONAL over estimate to do a brake job!

Not to get a line of BS going, or to get JP up on his ear about something
we've gotten past, but the little thing between he and I had nothing to do
with MY HANDLING of a brake job.

My parts prices jive a whole lot better then yours do!  My prices include a
mark up!  I usually buy in quantities of 50, or more. Let's see, if I buy 50
brake cylinders at $14.00 ea. and I pay $50.00 to have them shipped in, that
means I have to add about a $1.00 to each cylinder to cover the cost of
shipping.  Cost is now $15.00 per cylinder. It takes me 10 minutes (shop
light on) to go through the box and put the cylinders on the shelf, add
$3.00 per cylinder (shop fee).  Cost is now $18.00 ea.  A wheel cylinder for
$18.00 and mark it up 40% that would make my retail price $25.20 per
cylinder.  OK, I screw myself out of $.20 per cylinder.  Darn and I was
hoping to buy an Ice Cream with that money!

Since I buy wholesale and sell at retail that's about right.  What's your
problem with this?  I make $7.20 per cylinder, I don't screw anybody and I
still make a decent profit. I pay my bills and property taxes.  I keep stuff
on the shelf, so I don't have to do any chasing!  My 1500 sq. ft. shop, my
4,000 sq. ft. house and my cars are all paid for.  My children have their
college fund and my wife has her masters in Medical Services Administration.
We're about to move to Florida where I'm having (3) three 1,500 sq. ft.
shops built, an inclosed pole barn along with a subterainean level house
built.  I don't owe anybody anything, and still manage to do this without
screwing people!

My family has been in the Biz since 1939 and I've been working on these
things since the mid 70's.  I have a steady stream of customers, wanting
both service and parts.

I'm sorry, maybe you have high shop overhead, or keep a high maintenance
woman, or two!  I don't know and that's your problem!  It seems to me that
as a good businessman you'd figure out what's COSTING YOU SO MUCH MONEY AND
FIX YOUR PROBLEM!  People want things fixed and they want them fixed right,
but are NOT inclined to PAY SUBSTANTIAL LIFE TIME PAYMENTS  TO YOUR
CARIBBEAN RETIREMENT FUND!

Excuse me, but I have to get into the shop and start packaging some of my
high priced parts for shipment.  Later, I have a brake job to start.
Hmmmmmmmm!  Maybe I should call him back and tell him to sell his first born
to cover my Vera Cruz vacation this year!

Bo
Jeff Rice - 20 Sep 2005 14:44 GMT
I'd take the Caribbean over Vera Cruz, Texas any ol' time <lol>...
Jeff ( I buy all my parts from reputable junkyards and shady
people.sheesh....) Rice

"64daytonaht" wrotet...
<snip>
 I don't know and that's your problem!  It seems to me that
> as a good businessman you'd figure out what's COSTING YOU SO MUCH MONEY
> AND FIX YOUR PROBLEM!  People want things fixed and they want them fixed
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> born to cover my Vera Cruz vacation this year!
> Bo
Studebaker George - 20 Sep 2005 14:48 GMT
Well, I guess I have job security now fixing all the brake jobs you do
in and around our wondeful state.  What's the matter, you get run out
of wherever you are?  Why the hell else would you be coming to OUR
state?  Bo, you are a wise a.s and Florida doesn't need or want you.
Stay where ever you are.  And IIRC, you were the buffoon who didn't
notice that you were driving a car with only a couple of brakes
working.  Real fine diagnostics, there dude!  How many years you been
fixin' cars?  Your tirades that followed indicated you were having some
kind of substance abuse trouble... maybe that's why you didn't notice
the car not stopping right.. Sounds like you are the one sucking people
in with promises of low bills, too...I tell the TRUTH, that this is not
a cheap hobby and time is money.  
Studebaker George
John Poulos - 20 Sep 2005 15:18 GMT
   OK, this thread went to hell in a hand cart. It started as a
friendly 'heads up' to me about a car I was buying and turned into
"Vendor Wars"
I think I'll take some of my evil vendor money and head to Atlantic City
for a day, I trust when I get back, it'll be back to normal. (Whatever
that is <g>)

> Well, I guess I have job security now fixing all the brake jobs you do
> in and around our wondeful state.  What's the matter, you get run out
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> a cheap hobby and time is money.  
> Studebaker George

Signature

JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
62 Lark 2 door
61 Hawk
60? Hawk
53 Starlight

64daytonaht - 20 Sep 2005 15:46 GMT
George,

Again, your information is piss poor!

I was born and raised in Florida on a little ole 600 acre farm/ranch west of
Ocala.  After being blown the hell up and burned alive in the defense of
people like you, I'm going home to live out what few days I have left in
peace.  No drugs, only a beer once in a while.

I'll not be working on anybody's vehicles, so you needn't fear that I'll
take all your high priced business away.

I may be a wise a.s, but I tell people the way it is.  There is no reason a
brake job should cost a grand, or more. No reason except simple greed!

I've never meant you George, but there is one thing I can tell, your in a
league all by yourself.  Even ole DD couldn't hold a stick to your knowledge
and experience. Yes sir, a legend in his own mind!

BTW, I packaged the 1st half dozen orders all ready and am taking a little
break to engage in pointless banter.  Back to work now.

Bo
Dave Lester - 20 Sep 2005 16:01 GMT
George, please give it a rest, or take it to email.

John and Bo have worked out their differences, why stir it up again?

John doesn't need it, Bo doesn't need it, and the rest of us sure don't need
it.

If you need it, please take it elsewhere.
Signature

Dave Lester
www.davesplaceinc.com
The Studebaker Hang Out
Casbah of 'Sheba the Tramp, and Goliath the Hateful Truck

Studebaker George - 21 Sep 2005 00:01 GMT
OK, I have a few things to say and I will quit this thread.  First, I
apologize to Bo for some of the things I said; I wish I could have said
some things differently or not at all, but it is too easy to get riled
up and type out stuff without really thinking.  I do NOT like nor do I
deserve the insinuation that I am either greedy or dishonest, and I do
not apologize for getting pissed.  I have spent my whole life as a
professional wrench and I get mad at people who automatically call all
techs crooks or thieves.  All my life I have heard us called that and
it just burns me up.  Yes, there are plenty of bad ones out there but
there are plenty of good ones.  As one who has spent a lot of time in
the "trenches" as a line mechanic, I know all to well that for years we
didn't get paid anywhere near what we deserve, and the flat rate system
encourages crummy work and shortcuts.  And as far as what I charge, I
am way more than fair with both my customers and myself.  Anyone who
knows me knows that I do not by any means have an extravagant
lifestyle.  Everything I have is paid for but my house is only worth
about a hundred grand and the newest vehicle I own is a 94.  I never
got rich in this business and never will.  I have, however, been around
long enough to know that cheap prices and freebees don't pay bills or
put food on the table.  If I pack bearings, I get paid for it, period.
I give very high estimates right off the top not to be a crook, but to
make sure the customer knows there is a possibility that the repair
could go that high; a "worst case" scenario.  The brakes on that car
could have easily gone past a thou if it needs everything.
  Bo, it's obvious that you have a temper that is about the same as
mine, so once again I apologize for my vicious outburst and hope that
you can be a man also and apologize for yours.
Studebaker George
Dave Lester - 21 Sep 2005 02:49 GMT
Thank you, George.
Signature

Dave Lester
Home of the Internationally Renowned 'Sheba and Goliath
See pictures at www.davesplaceinc.com

64daytonaht - 21 Sep 2005 05:19 GMT
George,

The old man lived by a very simple Studebakerism, "Give more then you
promise".  All my life, be it on the farm/ranch, in the Military, or working
on Studebakers, this has been drilled into me.  I do not apologize for
trying my damnest to live up to his standard.  He was a great old man, very
wise and very keen.  He had to be, to still be selling parts and servicing
Studebaker's well into his twilight years and until the day he passed in
1987.

I do not apologize for speaking the obvious and demonstrating, in fact, what
is another's point of view. It just burns me up when someone tries to sell a
bill of goods as the true and only Gospel.  Yours is not the only way,
price, etc.  Yours is not the only point of view.

In the first place, I never called, nor insinuated that, you were a crook,
or a thief. I stated a simple fact, how much a brake job cost to do.  Backed
up this statement with figures derived from my ability to buy and sell parts
and provide good service at an apparently cheaper rate then you can.  I DO
NOT appologize for that!  It is in fact a true picture, based on what I can
do.

I do apologize for losing my temper and making some wise a.s cracks towards
you, after your determined effort to side track the issue by trying to rile
JP and myself up over something that has passed between two old friends and
is done and over with, and your odd outburst concerning my being a baffoon
with some kind of substance abuse trouble who sucks people in with promises
of low bills.  I made no such remarks towards you and JP and I have agreed
that the whole incident between us was an unfortunate mistake and that
neither one of us should have done, or said the things we said to and about
each other.  Life is much to short to hate one another, much less to hate
one another because of a car.

I've never met you, but you seem to be determined that yours is the only
point of view, only method, only price out there.  Your attitude, that
everyone else doesn't know what the hell they're doing and should follow
along with you, without question, bothers me. I do not apologize for
questioning you, sir!  Nor, should anyone else.  Sir, I march to the beat of
my own drum. It may be out of sync with most everyone else, I don't know?
But, I do a good job and I work very hard at doing so at a very fair and
reasonable price.  I sell parts at a very fair and reasonable price (when I
can).  I've never claimed to be the smartest person out there, the best
mechanic, or that the cars I build are show cars.  But, I've all ways done
my best for a customer and have stood behind work that I, myself have done,
and some that others have screwed up.  I've taken the hits over the years
for this and believe me, it has cost me dearly at times.  However, If I can
save someone a few dollars and make a decent living doing it, I will.  If I
were continuing in the wrench end of the business for the public, I'd still
do business the way the old man did, or I'd die trying.  And, I make no
apologies for this, either!

So, you've apologized to me and now I've apologized to you, and we've tried
to explain to each other, our different points of view.  Great!  Perhaps,
we'll have a better understanding and appreciation for each other. Now that
that's done, let's move on.

Bo
Michael - Roseland FL - 21 Sep 2005 08:11 GMT
Just for reference here:

Successful automotive repair facilities mark up parts they install in
customers cars times .67 or 67% of cost and of course then add labor.
If a shop is to survive and cover salary and overhead this is vital.
64daytonaht - 21 Sep 2005 13:30 GMT
Nope, not the final word, either.  You can't just make a blanket statement
such as this, especially when it's not correct.  The one's you have
knowledge of in your area may, but not all successful shops across the
country follow your rule.

Bo
Grumpy AuContraire - 21 Sep 2005 13:52 GMT
> Nope, not the final word, either.  You can't just make a blanket statement
> such as this, especially when it's not correct.  The one's you have
> knowledge of in your area may, but not all successful shops across the
> country follow your rule.
>
> Bo

50% markup seems to be the rule here in Austin..

JT
Studebaker George - 21 Sep 2005 15:09 GMT
I have been taught from the very beginning at age 16 that the markup
should cover (but it doesn't anymore) the overhead.  Fifty per cent was
always normal and many did seventy five.  The dealers do seventy five.
One of my best and oldest friends (we have known each other since
childhood) is the GM at a large Mercedes dealer; many of you who
attended last years Florida state meet met him and his wife.  He says
seventy five per cent is too low for today's world.  Many of us old
farts are still trying to live in the past.  It is almost 2006 and my
property taxes for my shop just doubled.  If I am to stick around, my
prices have to reflect those facts.  I have had my hands on the pulse
of the plight of the independant auto shop for years and it is no
secret that the independants are dissappearing.  One of the reasons is
that many of them refuse to se the handwriting on the wall and step on
up as far as pricing goes.  There will alwasy be Joe in the backyard
who works for a couple beers, but that won't be me and chances are it
WILL be me going behind Joe and making his mess right.  No I'm not god,
but I AM a professional and deserved to be paid like one, period.  An
arrogant attitude?  Maybe, but praise doesn't pay bills and I prefer my
praise to be in cash.  I also don't mind if people bring me their own
parts and I make NO markup; most of my customers have open accounts
with vendors and let me call and charge the parts to their accounts.
If they don't want to bother with either, then I look up or chase the
parts and mark the stuff up.  I treat my customers cars like they are
my "children" and it pleases me when my "kids" go out and have a good
time without having any problems. If I charge more than some, so be it,
if you don't like it, then go somewhere else.
Studebaker George
Jeff Rice - 21 Sep 2005 15:31 GMT
Hey!
Mask off the thread when you start spray painting like this!
Easy about the backyard stuff.....
I know several that do amazing things in their backyards and do it better
than some 'pro's...
Beer being used as a social lubricant sometimes can help the tense
Studebaker tightwad syndrome.
Beer being used as money is just wrong....but some people can be bought off.
<lol?>
Jeff (Always lock down the exchange rate beforehand....) Rice

"Studebaker George" wrote...
>I have been taught from the very beginning at age 16 that the markup
> should cover (but it doesn't anymore) the overhead.  Fifty per cent was
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> if you don't like it, then go somewhere else.
> Studebaker George
Studebaker George - 21 Sep 2005 16:30 GMT
Yeah, alcohol can seal many a deal or ruin one and I once saw my cousin
paint a car for a case of Budweiser.  He just shot it, though, in HIS
booth; the prep was all done.   Now that I think back about that, my
cousin did some of his FINEST paint jobs when he had consumed at least
a six pack...and he is a little guy...
Studebaker George
oldcarfart - 21 Sep 2005 15:10 GMT
Bo, when and where you moving to the sunshine state?
64daytonaht - 22 Sep 2005 01:59 GMT
Calvin,

It's in the works now.  I had hoped to have all the paper work, permits and
the like done, but it is hard doing that stuff long distance.

The storage company in Ocala was supposed to have picked up the conex
containers I bought and delivered them, but the hurricane has sent everyone
running for the Georgia line.  I've got the first load (6 1/2 tons) of parts
ready to go.

It's going to take a while to get my real estate and rental businesses sold,
all though I sold 3 four plexs in 9 days, last week.

I'm hoping to have everything
completed there by late next year and moved around Christmas, or the first
of the year 2007.

My family lives about 30 miles West of Ocala near a little town named
Morriston.

I just want to go home, raise cattle and work on my Studebakers.

No fuss, no muss.

Thanks for inquiring, Bo
John Poulos - 19 Sep 2005 17:12 GMT
  I'm just going on past experience on similar cars. I was the only
bidder on the white GT a few weeks back at 5K. I put $1500 and a weeks
labor in that car and it sold for a nice profit. $1000 for the brakes is
way out of line. If you can't do your own work, anything but a turn key
car is going to be a bad deal.

> Sounds like you are justifying the price to yourself.. And your comment
> about the EXTERIOR being rust free...what about the IMPORTANT stuff,
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> will be interesting to hear.  
> Studebaker George

Signature

JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
62 Lark 2 door
61 Hawk
60? Hawk
53 Starlight

64daytonaht - 19 Sep 2005 17:19 GMT
Aren't you glad we can do the work ourselves!

>   I'm just going on past experience on similar cars. I was the only bidder
> on the white GT a few weeks back at 5K. I put $1500 and a weeks labor in
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>> and I know we will get a report of what it looks like in person which
>> will be interesting to hear.  Studebaker George
Paul Johnson - 19 Sep 2005 17:45 GMT
>   I'm just going on past experience on similar cars. I was the only bidder
> on the white GT a few weeks back at 5K. I put $1500 and a weeks labor in
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> about the EXTERIOR being rust free...what about the IMPORTANT stuff,
>> like the FLOORS and TRUNK?  ...

Unless the seller flat out lied he described the fenders, trunk, etc as
solid.  It claimed to be a California car (and floorboard rust does happen
to California cars).  It still looks like a deal to me.
I sort of had the same luck as John described with a '64 GT five years ago.
I bought it on eBay for $1200- no pix, poor description, three-day auction.
It turned out to be a car being sold by the son of the original owner, was a
four-speed, disk brake, vinyl top.  Was left at a body shop by dad who then
died and the car was left sitting outside for a year or so then was returned
to the garage where it had been parked all its life and was left for another
eight years without running.  It looked a little shabby- was to have had two
new fenders installed and then was to be painted, but the interior was
extremely nice (red w/white exterior), the floors had been professionally
repaired, already had two new fenders installed.  It came with about a
six-inch high pile of invoices from all the work done on it over the years
(fastidiously maintained).  I put Marvel oil in the cylinders, checked the
fuel system and found it dry and clean.  The next day I poured a little gas
in the carb and it fired right up.  I put gas in  the tank and it ran
beautifully with good oil pressure, no smoking OR leaking.  Brakes worked ok
so I did nothing more than clean it up, doubled my money on eBay and still
have the two new fenders.
How did JP miss that?  <G> He was at Atlantic City for the weekend.
Paul Johnson
John Poulos - 19 Sep 2005 18:59 GMT
   Time will tell, but my gut tells me I'll do fine. The car came from
Ca. on a lien sale last year. It was dropped off at a trim shop to get
the new headliner and vinyl roof installed and the owner never came back.

>>   I'm just going on past experience on similar cars. I was the only bidder
>> on the white GT a few weeks back at 5K. I put $1500 and a weeks labor in
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> How did JP miss that?  <G> He was at Atlantic City for the weekend.
> Paul Johnson

Signature

JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
62 Lark 2 door
61 Hawk
60? Hawk
53 Starlight

markansas859 - 19 Sep 2005 02:53 GMT
yeah, thats the way it works.

this lady listed her sons car last week, I had mine for sale, no cash in
hand. auction ended below reserve

she sends me a second chance offer for $750

I was scouting out some other cars that didn't pan out closer to me

she relisted the car..

I e-mail her at 2 AM sunday morning, and ask if I can come 155 miles and
look at it.... since I now had CASH in hand

she e-mails me back at 2:30 AM, sure come ahead. but there is a lady coming
at 1 PM to look at it......

leave here 8 AM..... by 12:30, I was on I-30, headed back east.. got home at
5 PM tonight

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