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Car Forum / Antique and Collectibles / Studebaker / September 2005

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Oh-oh! The smoke got out. OT Chevy question.

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Gordon Richmond - 29 Sep 2005 05:15 GMT
As long as we are doing Chevy truck questions on this group <G>,

I just disassembled the alternator on #2 Suburban, and found that the
magic smoke has indeed escaped., and took most of the insulation off
the stator coils in the process. I HATE it when that happens! So I
removed the regualtor and brush-holder and re-installed it so that it
at least can serve as a belt idler.

On the way up here to the rig, the voltmeter would read normal for a
while, and then slowly creep up to about 18 volts, at which point I'd
kick in the heater fan, etc. in an effort to absorb some of the excess
current. Helped a bit. Then it would suddenly drop down to 12.6 volts
(normal battery voltage) for a while, and then start slowly creeping
up again. Alternator belt not loose; I checked that. No shorts in the
harness that I know of.

This is a Diesel Suburban, but I don't think the glow plug controller
is at fault. It appears to work OK, and the glow plug lamp never came
on while this nonsense was occurring. Had the glow plugs been turned
on that much, I expect they'd have mostly been burned out, yet the
truck starts just great.

I'm inclined to think that it was just a defective regulator in the
alternator that caused all the grief, but it occurred to me to post
this, just in case someone else experienced a similar problem and
found an unexpected cause. This is a very standard 78 amp GM
internally-regulated alternator.

I can get a new alternator easily enough, and there is enough juice in
the batteries to get me a long way down the road yet (two brand new
batteries).

I guess I will install a replacement alternator, and if I see so much
as one instance of the voltmeter reading abnormally, stop and unplug
the alternator harness plug to save the replacement from being smoked.

Gord Richmond
Grumpy AuContraire - 29 Sep 2005 05:58 GMT
> As long as we are doing Chevy truck questions on this group <G>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> Gord Richmond

I would think that the alternator employs some sort of zenner diode and
it may be failing thus allowing the voltage to rise.

That's the best I can come up with..

JT
Gordon Richmond - 29 Sep 2005 06:54 GMT
Yep.

The internal regulator is a triangular chunk of plastic about half the
side of a credit card, and about 1/4" thick. I'm sure it contains and
integrated circuit, and a zener diode is likely amongst the
components.

I just can't see an external cause for this failure that wouldn't have
some other symptoms, as well. Batteries, for example, aren't going
flat while the truck sits.

Gord Richmond
Grumpy AuContraire - 29 Sep 2005 20:21 GMT
> Yep.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Gord Richmond

The way I see it, it has to be in the alternator (that is internally
regulated) as the zener should produce and even 14 volts or so when in
avalanche mode, otherwise it would block leakage just like any normal diode.

Been a long time since I have dealt with the nutz 'n bolts of reverse biasing...

JT
--Shiva-- - 30 Sep 2005 02:15 GMT
On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 04:58:05 GMT,  you wrote:

>I would think that the alternator employs some sort of zenner diode and
>it may be failing thus allowing the voltage to rise.
>
>That's the best I can come up with..
>
>JT
A delco alternator is 3 generators in the same case.

power is supplied to the source wire, which in turn makes the
regulator supply power as needed  to the brush lead, which while
rotating, produces a 3 phase AC output.
this output has a single common connection on the stator
windings.., and 3 'hot outputs', which are connected to a bank of
6 diodes, 3 'sets' in 1 block..
1 side of the pair of diodes is connected to case ground, and
the output of the other side of the set is connected to battery
hot wire connection, with the 3 power leads of the stator
connected between the pairs of diodes..

these convert the AC to DC, which is fed to the large battery
lead connection on the case of the alternator..

there is also connected to the 3 AC leads, a 'diode trio', which
consists of 3 small diodes, connected to a common output, which
feeds a lug on the voltage regulator..

(the old days, the idiot light came on? sometimes ONE of those
diodes would short out.. and that would cause the idiot light to
light up..)

to CHECK quickly an alternator RUNNING.. DO NOT DISCONNECT THE
BATTER EVER!!!!...

instead, while its running, take a hack saw blade and see if its
pulled toward the bearing at the back (opposite the pulley end)
of the case..

to check one OUTSIDE (not fool proof, but shows big problems)
take an OHM METER, and with the alternator disconnected from the
wires, touch one lead to battery wire connection, and the other
to case..
get a reading..
REVERSE the leads..
the reading SHOULD BE DIFFERENT..
if they are the same, there is problems that mean the case must
be opened up.

    --Shiva--
   
   
claudeski@netzero.com - 29 Sep 2005 13:28 GMT
Rectifier bridge can do that too.

Studeski
Claude Chmielewski
claudeski@netzero.com
http://www.studeski.com
Fillmore, Wisconsin
1947 M16 Truck
1962 GT Hawk
1963 Lark
1964 Commander Wagonaire
--Shiva-- - 30 Sep 2005 02:05 GMT
On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 04:15:20 GMT,  you wrote:

>I just disassembled the alternator on #2 Suburban, and found that the
>magic smoke has indeed escaped., and took most of the insulation off
>the stator coils in the process. I HATE it when that happens! So I
>removed the regualtor and brush-holder and re-installed it so that it
>at least can serve as a belt idler.

ok, TO do that.. IMO, the first thing I would suspect is the
voltage regulator, AND the wires leading to it, CHECK that the
case of the alternator IS GROUNDED..
the regulator requires a good case ground, so it can reference
its 'source voltage', and tell the regulator what to do to make
the alternator charge.

one of the wires on the 2 wire plug is ONLY HOT when the key is
in the ON position..
if this wire is ALWAYS HOT, you will run the battery down AND
burn the alternator up, but NOT the stator..it will be the
rotating coil that cooks..

the OTHER wire is ALWAYS HOT.

removing the regulator/brush holder SHOULD kill the entire
circuit..
you having a voltage fluctuation is NOT possible without the
alternator in the circuit..
you may have some weird wiring harness problems developing..

    --Shiva--
   
   
Gordon Richmond - 30 Sep 2005 05:12 GMT
Yep, without the alternator in the circuit, the voltmeter held steady
at battery voltage. Nary a twitch.

I do know how an alternator works. It could be that the internal
regulator was not properly grounded to the case, but in any case it
was the stator that got smoked, no question. Rotor appeared OK.

I just got back from a trip to town, where I bought an installed a
rebuilt alternator from NAPA. So far, so good. Drove the hour-plus
back to the rig, and the voltmeter came up from 12.5 or so to about
13.5 volts and stabilized. Not surprising, since the batteries had to
be somewhat discharged after the previous alternator kakked out.

I watched the voltmeter like a Hawk, too. (mandatory Studebaker
content)

Gord Richmond
--Shiva-- - 30 Sep 2005 05:32 GMT
On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 04:12:38 GMT,  you wrote:

>It could be that the internal
>regulator was not properly grounded to the case, but in any case it
>was the stator that got smoked, no question. Rotor appeared OK.
stators burn due to overcharging..
the regulator could have (depends on the brand) shorted
internally and wanted a bigger charge, but, it could also have
lost the diode trio inside which COULD cause same.
that voltage source is a safety feature of sorts..
    --Shiva--
   
   
Lee - 30 Sep 2005 05:37 GMT
Had SuperDually out today for a bit after putting a pair of new
batteries in it.  

For some reason, the 4-year-old 72 month batteries just would not do
the job any longer and leaving the door open for more than 10 minutes
would drop them flat.  I guess it could have something to do with the
400 amp draw the glow plugs hit them with <G>.....  Also, about 3
weeks ago, the alternator shot craps on the old beast.  Then again,
after 297,000 miles, I guess it was time <G>.   It was still charging
fine but the bearings finally dried up and disintigrated on the way
home from Turner's place.  (Thanks again Ted for your assistance in
getting it back on the road and home).

While I had it out, I also watched the volt meter like a Hawk (GT, of
course) and was surprised to see it a bit higher than I have in quite
some time.  When I got home, I put the digital volt meter on it and it
read 14.6 volts.  With the old batteries installed, (I had checked it
this morning before switching the batteries out) the voltage at the
batteries was 14.2 volts (after running for 20 minutes).  I was a bit
surprised at the difference but not concerned.  Just seemed
odd........

>Yep, without the alternator in the circuit, the voltmeter held steady
>at battery voltage. Nary a twitch.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>Gord Richmond

Lee DeLaBarre
Daytona62
Grumpy AuContraire - 30 Sep 2005 10:30 GMT
Lee, I would think that any voltage within the range of 14 volts +/- 1/2
Volt would be fine.  A lower voltage would indicate a real low battery
charge condition and higher would be a regulator problem.

BTW, 297 miles makes me feel OK as my T-Cab is in that range.  Goes to
show that you can keep a truck on the road indefinitely with the proper
maintenance and care.  Of course, the power train was swapped on my gas
guzzler back in 1997.

JT

> Had SuperDually out today for a bit after putting a pair of new
> batteries in it.
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> Lee DeLaBarre
> Daytona62
Lee - 30 Sep 2005 13:50 GMT
Am hoping the old gal has at least another 300k left in her.  The
prospect of buying a new truck just is not appealing, especially with
the engine choices available these days in a diesel.

>BTW, 297 miles makes me feel OK as my T-Cab is in that range.  Goes to
>show that you can keep a truck on the road indefinitely with the proper
>maintenance and care.  Of course, the power train was swapped on my gas
>guzzler back in 1997.
>
>JT

Lee DeLaBarre
Daytona62
R W Hughes - 30 Sep 2005 18:22 GMT
> removing the regulator/brush holder SHOULD kill the entire
> circuit..
> you having a voltage fluctuation is NOT possible without the
> alternator in the circuit..
> you may have some weird wiring harness problems developing..

If the rotor is shorted and the alternator is driven with no brushes,
remanent magnetism may generate enough voltage to get the thing started.
The regulator will not be able to control the voltage since the brushes
are gone and there is no connection to the rotor. The voltage will only
be controlled by the speed, rising as the alternator is turned faster.
To avoid this, just don't hook up the charging wire to the alternator.
Signature

Robert W. Hughes (Bob)
BackYard Engineering
29:40.237N, 95:28.726W or perhaps 30:55.265N, 95:20.590W
Houston, Texas "The city with too much Oxygen"
rwhughe@oplink.net

 
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