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Car Forum / Antique and Collectibles / Studebaker / November 2005Aluminum Heads
On the Studebaker Racing Forum there has been some talk about people wanting good aluminum heads for the Stude V 8. Below is a post I made referring to them. If anyone here might be interested let me know. I'm an old man and if this is going to go, I don't want to put it off very long as I want to be able to use them. Intakes might be a more reality so if you are interested in intakes, let me know on that also. "All this talk about aluminum heads has me thinking again. About a year ago, I talked with a reliable company in Indy about making them and the price at that time was going to be around $1800 for a pair of bare heads and about $2100 complete with valves, springs, retainers, etc. I would have had a set made but as you know making one set was not a reality. If I could have come up with at least 25 buyers, he would have done it plus he was talking about making intakes also since I told him we only had the stock intake to use unless we used adapter plates and went with a Chevy or Mopar set up. I didn't pursue it any further as I told him I doubted I could get 25 people to commit. Besides my set, I could only think of two others that would commit so I didn't think any more about it. Now it seems there may be more of an interest. Let me know if you are serious about commiting to a set and I'll talk to him again. He said I needed to bring him a block and two heads so if there is the interest, I'll get them to him. Ted" I'm no expert but modern engines with aluminum heads seem to be prone to head gasket failure at the sign of overheating. I suppose there's a weight advantage and that would be desirable for the performance folks but would probably not offer much to someone like me who (at this point in life) is looking for economical operation. I'm sure that some discussion will follow and hopefully, more light will be shed on the subject... JT (Who realizes that the biggest performance improvements would come from reworked/designed heads) > On the Studebaker Racing Forum there has been some talk about people > wanting good aluminum heads for the Stude V 8. Below is a post I made [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Ted" > I'm no expert but modern engines with aluminum heads seem to be prone to > head gasket failure at the sign of overheating. yup... > I suppose there's a weight advantage and that would be desirable for the > performance folks but would probably not offer much to someone like me > who (at this point in life) is looking for economical operation. > > I'm sure that some discussion will follow and hopefully, more light will > be shed on the subject... You're missing one big advantage, which is faster heat transfer away from the combustion chambers. At least on a SBC conventional wisdom holds that everything else being equal you can run a half point more compression with an aluminum head than with an identical iron one... nate But is that half point making more power or just making up for the heat loss of the aluminum heads? >> I'm no expert but modern engines with aluminum heads seem to be prone to >> head gasket failure at the sign of overheating. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > nate If I understand how these things work correctly, the aluminum heads would provide for a more even temperature in the chamber, fewer "hot spots" and therefore less chance of detonation, therefore you'd probably see a slight net power gain. Also aluminum is much easier to port than cast iron :) Average temp. probably wouldn't drop all that much as the thermostat still regulates engine temp. nate > But is that half point making more power or just making up for the heat loss > of the aluminum heads? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > > > nate I'm thinking more of the combustion temperatures not the engine temp as a whole. Temperature = pressure and if that temp can escape faster through aluminum, then the pressure forcing the piston down will be less. All kind of theoretical. > If I understand how these things work correctly, the aluminum heads > would provide for a more even temperature in the chamber, fewer "hot [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >> > >> > nate I would welcome and purchace a better aluminum intake. count me in.Rich > I'm thinking more of the combustion temperatures not the engine temp as a > whole. Temperature = pressure and if that temp can escape faster through [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > >> > > >> > nate I am most interested in a complete set for that money. I already have a STU V aluminum intake otherwise I might opt for that as well.  SignatureStude Bro #2 Will Work For Studebaker 53 Starlight Commander > On the Studebaker Racing Forum there has been some talk about people > wanting good aluminum heads for the Stude V 8. Below is a post I made [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Ted" > I already have a STU V aluminum intake otherwise I might opt for that as > well. Well, now, just where would a guy find one of those intakes? SignatureDave Lester Dave's Place Home of the Internationally Renowned Studebakers, 'Sheba and Goliath See pictures at www.davesplaceinc.com It was a dark and stormy night, I was Okie Noodlin' .......and so goes the story. SignatureStude Bro #2 Will Work For Studebaker 53 Starlight Commander >> I already have a STU V aluminum intake otherwise I might opt for that as >> well. > > Well, now, just where would a guy find one of those intakes? > It was a dark and stormy night, I was Okie Noodlin' .......and so goes the > story. Do it still whistle at ya? SignatureDave Lester Home of the Internationally Renowned 'Sheba and Goliath See pictures at www.davesplaceinc.com Ted, I'd take a set. Would the Studebaker valve, seat, guides, guts, feathers and all work on these, or would this stuff be different and special to the head? Bo Ted, I would be interested in a set. I would however be much more interested in an Intake manifold copied from a better modern design . Lets face it ,Stude never made a decent intake for its own engines. My brother had one from Weiand. It was on his 1951 R-2 Convertible when he sold it. That manifold made a difference when he had it on his modified 1961 T-Cab. The T-Cab engine was bored out with higher compression around 11:1 and an Isky Drag Star Cam.He had some homemade headers on it . It ran very strong. I like the aluminum cylinder head idea. I have a set of AFR heads on my Chevy 406 . So you're preaching to the choir here. I paid around $1400 to AFR for my set with ARP fasteners and head gaskets. I am mentioning the price just to put things in to perspective. $2200 for a set for a stude is a very decent price when you think about it. However, are these heads going to be a copy of a stock head or will they offer improvements in the casting that studebaker never gave us ? If the latter is true sign me up. If not I would still definitely want an improved aluminum intake manifold. Now if we could just get a decent set of tubular headers mass produced for a stude. Say at a price of around $600 or less that would be of a decent quality. The Chevy LT1 engine uses reverse cooling,in which the coolant is directed to the hottest part of the engine 1st, which is the cylinder head. That is why they were able to get away with running such high compression . Also electronic engine management was part of the package.The stude should be an easy engine to run reverse cooling with seperate passages for the block and the head. Perhaps a redesigned aluminum water manifold would be a good idea for a stude. This would allow higher compression to be run as well. I'll soon be building a engine for my Clone PBR, I been saving my change for a Avanti, but just bought this 64 Commander, i could wait on the Avanti a little longer and spring for some good aluminum heads and a better intake, What kind of intake is he going to mold? or is it a sheet metal one, will it fit under a 59-66 Lark hood? Another question about using a Paxton Supercharger, my nephew parted out a turbo Audi and gave me the intercooler, can i use it on a Paxton supercharger? Bob Whiten Wagonmaster http://community.webtv.net/zzbob/StudebakersandMore Getting several questions about the heads and intake. I'll wait a day or so and try to answer them all at once. On the intercooler, in my opinion it would be a waste to use it with the Paxton as it will not put out enough boost to warrant using a cooler plus if the cooler isn't sized to the supercharger and engine, it will actually lower performance rather than help due to too much restriction and lost boost. I don't think an intercooler will help much until you get to at least 12 pounds or so. Ted So are the LS aluminum heads so bad that it makes sense to start from scratch and tool a completely different set? S2DSteve Steve, I don't understand the question. The LS- LT heads work very well from all accounts I've heard and read. It would be great if new stude heads could be made in aluminum with some new technology added, including reverse cooling of the heads. This would require a new style aluminum water manifold as well. In the end higher compression could be run with much less chance of detonation. The engine would be lighter , it would also run cooler and make more power. Sounds like a home run to me. I am only mentioning the LT heads as an example of what could be done with a stude. The technology obviously works and could be adapted to a stude V-8, just like a turbo. I think he's referring to the Lionel Stone heads. > Steve, > I don't understand the question. The LS- LT heads work very well from [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > technology obviously works and could be adapted to a stude V-8, just > like a turbo. SignatureRemove all the x's to email. The only label that fits: http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_6966.shtml "The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else." ---Teddy Roosevelt, 1918 1953 Starlight Coupe 1954 Starlight Coupe R1/4-speed 1958 Silver Hawk 1960 Frua Italia Larks (2 - they're here!) 1962 Lark VI 1962 Lark Convertible 1963 Avanti R2 R4324 1963 Lark Cruiser (R2 3/4 clone in progress) 1963 GT Hawk 1963 Daytona Wagonaire 1964 Cruiser (Survivor) 1956 2E7 2004 Porsche Carrera 4S 2000 Ducati 748 2002 Jeep Overland http://homepage.mac.com/pdrnec/PhotoAlbum81.html Pat, Thank You, I was in a Chevy state of mind thinking about LS-1 LS-2 and LT1 heads. I wasn't thinking about those initials being related to anyone. I would just love to see an updated version of a stude head using some technology that wasn't available when stude was still building engines.Turbo chargers and studes seem happy together. Barlow Soper built a wild engine for his Avanti with a supercharger and Ford fuel injection and engine management systems . Didn't that thing make around 500 HP ? l. stones heads do not heat up it is hard to get them over 150 on a r-2 we tryed just will not heat up blocked the thermostat 95 temp outside still at 150 why would you need a intercooler for <as the thermostat still regulates engine temp> The intercooler cools the air after its compressed(supercharged).Has nothing to do with engine temp. > l. stones heads do not heat up it is hard to get them over 150 on a r-2 > we tryed just will not heat up blocked the thermostat 95 temp outside > still at 150 why would you need a intercooler for <as the thermostat > still regulates engine temp> In a word, "YES"!!!! Bo > So are the LS aluminum heads so bad that it makes sense to start from > scratch and tool a completely different set? > > S2DSteve I've been away from the forum and the NG for about a week while I was on the road. I've got to say that I would be reluctant to pay some $2000 for aluminum heads that would offer only a relatively modest increase in performance over a reworked stock iron head. Now, if someone would reproduce the DOHC heads off the Agajanian Indy engine for for two grand a pair, count me in! Seriously, if one is going to spend the big bucks on tooling and short-run manufacturing, why not go for the best breathing that one can possibly get? Gord Richmond Gord, those heads would be even worse... They were built for a 200 some cid engine and in roadster, to boot. Nothing is set up for any front mounting of any accessories.. It was a pure racing design for Indy... Other than that I am in total agreement with you. The very latest in total flow (wet and dry) technology should be employed. EFI bosses, MAP provisions, and EIEIO valves should be included in the design. The only constant right now is the head bolt location, and the cylinder placement. Almost everything else can be manipulated. If it stays a 2 valve setup, canting the valves will be mandatory to fit them into the hole. That alone will cause a mandatory port realignment. An overhead 4 valve head will bring a whole lot of drive gyrations...Which may be neat...but 'spensive. Why not a 3 valve head? That's work with conventional pushrod technology. Making the manifolds 'retrofit to older Stude engines will lead to compromises to performance. Lots of interesting ideas floating out there... Ought to be fun to see what comes out after the smoke clears a bit.... Jeff "Gordon Richmond" wrote... > I've been away from the forum and the NG for about a week while I was > on the road. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Gord Richmond This looks real interesting to me.... Modern technology, mechanically simple to achieve.... http://ultimatestreetrods.com/products/barrygrant3valve.htm (Good tech write-up (PDF) at: http://www.ultimatestreetrods.com/3valveIntrosheet.pdf ) |
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