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Car Forum / Antique and Collectibles / Studebaker / March 2006

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prop valve question (Jim Turner?  OCF?)

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Nate Nagel - 27 Mar 2006 00:48 GMT
Question is this...  do those knob style prop valves like wilwood et.
al. sell give zero pressure reduction with the knob all the way out?  OR
do they start at some preset pressure drop?  REason I ask is I don't
think that I need a whole lot of pressure drop to make this system work
properly, but it's just dangerous the way it is.

nate

(still don't understand why with all factory style components I'm having
this problem...)

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Jeff Rice - 27 Mar 2006 02:05 GMT
Yes, they do work.
http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=egnsearch.asp&N=115+400304+3015
58&autoview=sku

http://www.mpbrakes.com/mpfaqvalving.htm
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/tech_white_papers.shtml
http://robrobinette.com/brake_valve.htm
http://www.mirafiori.com/~courtney/128/tech/tilton_prop_valve.html
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/brakes/prop.html

> Question is this...  do those knob style prop valves like wilwood et.
> al. sell give zero pressure reduction with the knob all the way out?  OR
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> (still don't understand why with all factory style components I'm having
> this problem...)
oldcarfart - 27 Mar 2006 02:39 GMT
they all start at zero pressure reduction, then the prop ramps to
limiting pressure.
Nate Nagel - 27 Mar 2006 02:49 GMT
> they all start at zero pressure reduction, then the prop ramps to
> limiting pressure.

do you mean that the output of the prop valve goes to, say, 500 psi (if
that's where you set it) with the input pressure and then just stays
there?  Or does it hit a "knee" at the set point and then keep
increasing pressure, but at a slower rate than the input?  (I'd rather
it do the latter, so that I can get the most out of my brakes...)

I haven't messed with this stuff in a while, and even Wilwood's web site
isn't 100% clear.

thanks

nate

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oldcarfart - 27 Mar 2006 07:38 GMT
i.e.  at x input pressure both outputs = x, at xx input pressure output
F (front) = xx, output R (rear) = x times 1.5 as it "knees", at maximum
input F = max., R = xx (it knee'd at 1.5 input, ramped to xx on a set
knee slope and pegged at a maximum of xx).    Geek'ed enought for you?
<grin>
N8N - 27 Mar 2006 16:15 GMT
> i.e.  at x input pressure both outputs = x, at xx input pressure output
> F (front) = xx, output R (rear) = x times 1.5 as it "knees", at maximum
> input F = max., R = xx (it knee'd at 1.5 input, ramped to xx on a set
> knee slope and pegged at a maximum of xx).    Geek'ed enought for you?
> <grin>

actually that makes perfect sense and is kind of how I was imagining it
worked...

nate
oldcarfart - 27 Mar 2006 17:34 GMT
if rear psi = front psi @ all times this allows hydroplane and spin, if
front wheels lock and rear still spin this allows directional stability
and is the basis for propping, ramping, RWAL (rear wall anti-lock) and
ABS variations to eliminate spin.  now stop as I am having geek
flashbacks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Calvin
Prototype Vehicle Test Engineer
TRW Automotive  (May 1992-June 2005)
Mike - 27 Mar 2006 10:42 GMT
It would be a shame to reduce rear braking to match the front.  Something
is wrong; and I hope you really find it.
Could the problem be stated as front brakes that aren't gripping the way
they should?  Does the curve of the front shoes match the curve of the drum?
If the drums have been turned, and the shoes aren't shaped to match, you may
have only a small area of contact, away from the ends of the linings.  That
small area quickly overheats and glazes during break- in.  Once glazed, it
won't wear down easily; and you are stuck with it.
  You can change the shape of the shoe, crudely, with a hammer, on a
concrete floor.  A box of them may have been changed, crudely, by someone
who dropped it, on end, on a concrete floor!  "Real brake shops" cam grind
the linings to match the drums.  The drums could be bell shaped, too.  That
would give the same problem, on one edge of the lining.

 That said,  why not build a real dual master system, rather than go to a
proportioning valve?  There's room for a second master cylinder under the
floor, alongside the original.  Maybe both could be moved to the rear, to
leave more room for linkage.  An adjustable "bias bar" between the two would
allow you to set up the brakes to taste; and give the safety of a dual
system.
                                       Mike M.
Transtar60 - 27 Mar 2006 13:47 GMT
snip

>   That said,  why not build a real dual master system, rather than go to a
> proportioning valve?  There's room for a second master cylinder under the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> system.
>                                         Mike M.

It would seem more logical  to use a factory made dual master cylinder
rather than the above.
To me anyway.
Mike - 27 Mar 2006 21:07 GMT
 The bias bar gives a mechanical adjustment for front/ rear pressure, that
you don't have with a tandem master.  It's "Racy Car" stuff!  Kits are
available to build your own setup.
                               Mike M.
 
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