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Car Forum / Antique and Collectibles / Studebaker / August 2006R1 Engine Rebuild
The R1 engine in my 63 Wagonaire sat around and froze up because the PO did not take proper care and water was sitting in one of the cylinders with the piston 2/3rds up. Now the one cylinder is scored from the corrosion. I managed to clean it up and the engine turns ok. I have been told that if I try to put it back in I will most likely have a smoky engine. I am thinking about having the block bored .60 over which should give me a 299 c.i. displacement. What do you guys think about using R2 pistons for lower compression? Using the shallow dish or 'cup' pistons should get you a compression ratio of about 9.2/1. That's what we used in my R2. It is also bored .060 over. Tim K. > The R1 engine in my 63 Wagonaire sat around and froze up because the PO > did not take proper care and water was sitting in one of the cylinders [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > me a 299 c.i. displacement. What do you guys think about using R2 > pistons for lower compression? Oh, and we also used the standard (not R2) heads. Tim K. > Using the shallow dish or 'cup' pistons should get you a compression > ratio of about 9.2/1. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > me a 299 c.i. displacement. What do you guys think about using R2 > > pistons for lower compression? Where would you buy the pistons from? I have been told some of the newer ones are cheap (made in Taiwan) > Oh, and we also used the standard (not R2) heads. > Tim K. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > > me a 299 c.i. displacement. What do you guys think about using R2 > > > pistons for lower compression? I got mine through Ted Harbit which is now Fairborn and I think they were Silvalite or something like that. Tim K. > Where would you buy the pistons from? I have been told some of the > newer ones are cheap (made in Taiwan) [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > > > me a 299 c.i. displacement. What do you guys think about using R2 > > > > pistons for lower compression? I got mine through Ted Harbit which is now Fairborn and I think they were Silvalite or something like that. Tim K. > Where would you buy the pistons from? I have been told some of the > newer ones are cheap (made in Taiwan) [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > > > me a 299 c.i. displacement. What do you guys think about using R2 > > > > pistons for lower compression? I got mine through Ted Harbit which is now Fairborn and I think they were Silvalite or something like that. Tim K. > Where would you buy the pistons from? I have been told some of the > newer ones are cheap (made in Taiwan) [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > > > me a 299 c.i. displacement. What do you guys think about using R2 > > > > pistons for lower compression? R1 and R2 pistons are the same, it's the heads that are different. > The R1 engine in my 63 Wagonaire sat around and froze up because the PO > did not take proper care and water was sitting in one of the cylinders [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > me a 299 c.i. displacement. What do you guys think about using R2 > pistons for lower compression?  SignatureJP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 65 Daytona Sports Sedan 64 Daytona HT 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk (Black) 63 R1 GT Hawk 63 Avanti R1 63 Avanti R2 63 Daytona convert 62 Lark 2 door 60 Hawk 60 Lark Convert 51 Commander Aren't the R2 heads the same as the low compression truck heads? JT > R1 and R2 pistons are the same, it's the heads that are different. > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > 60 Lark Convert > 51 Commander Pretty much. I must have bought 10 sets NOS from SASCO over the years, cheaper then buying new guides and installing. > Aren't the R2 heads the same as the low compression truck heads? > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >> 60 Lark Convert >> 51 Commander SignatureJP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 65 Daytona Sports Sedan 64 Daytona HT 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk (Black) 63 R1 GT Hawk 63 Avanti R1 63 Avanti R2 63 Daytona convert 62 Lark 2 door 60 Hawk 60 Lark Convert 51 Commander Thanks John, I knew that about the pistons at one time but forgot they are the same. What compression ratio would I have on an R1 with the thicker head gaskets and .60 over pistons? > Pretty much. I must have bought 10 sets NOS from SASCO over the years, > cheaper then buying new guides and installing. [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > 60 Lark Convert > 51 Commander > The R1 engine in my 63 Wagonaire sat around and froze up because the PO > did not take proper care and water was sitting in one of the cylinders [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > me a 299 c.i. displacement. What do you guys think about using R2 > pistons for lower compression? Years ago I bought a wrecked '64 Avanti R-1 for parts (for $150). I had run in to the PO who told me that the engine (factory short block) and new Powershift had fewer than 1500 miles ). The hood was gone as was the air cleaner so it had been sitting out for some time with no rain protection. I pulled the heads and found that all the cylinders were standing full of water. The cylinder walls were all rusted. Back in those days boring wasn't even considered (keep it cheap). I had the car at a base auto hobby shop. The Filipino man running the shop told me to dry them out, then take kerosene and steel wool and polish the cylinder walls. I did that and they cleaned up nicely. I put the engine in my '64 Champ and ran it many thousands of miles with no problem and no excessive oil consumption. Eventually I traded the engine to JP for his '64 Daytona convertible which is now owned by Jim Turner (via Skip Lackie and N8N). About the same time JP got me a Big A rebuilt ohv six long block. I was going to use it in my '61 convertible, but never got around to it. Fast forward 25 years or so. The engine had been sitting in my barn and had developed rust in the cylinders. I offered it to a man who needed it for the '63 Daytona convertible he had. I told him about the kerosene and steel wool trick and told him to pay me for the engine only if it worked for him. A few weeks later he sent me a check and said it was sweet running. JP eventually got the car and resold it with no problems. FWIW. Paul Johnson R1 and R2 pistons are the same, it is the heads that make the CR difference. The R1 and R2 pistons are flattops (Silvolite 2412); there is a "deep dish" piston - Silvolite 2411, and a shallow dish piston - Silvolite 2416. There are some hypereutectic versions of some of these pistons available, and yes, there are some import copies as well out there. Joel > The R1 engine in my 63 Wagonaire sat around and froze up because the PO > did not take proper care and water was sitting in one of the cylinders [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > me a 299 c.i. displacement. What do you guys think about using R2 > pistons for lower compression? Mike, I just tried to call you. I do have some of the Silvolite hypereutectics available. Joel > R1 and R2 pistons are the same, it is the heads that make the CR > difference. The R1 and R2 pistons are flattops (Silvolite 2412); there [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> me a 299 c.i. displacement. What do you guys think about using R2 >> pistons for lower compression? Thank you for the tip Paul. I am going to try that. Did you use course or fine steel wool? Joel, I will get with you if this doesn't pan out. Thank you! > Mike, > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >> me a 299 c.i. displacement. What do you guys think about using R2 > >> pistons for lower compression? Paul, did the R1 engine have pits in the cylinder wall? Did the steel wool and kersoine take the all the pits out or did you leave some? > Thank you for the tip Paul. I am going to try that. Did you use course > or fine steel wool? [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > >> me a 299 c.i. displacement. What do you guys think about using R2 > > >> pistons for lower compression? > Paul, did the R1 engine have pits in the cylinder wall? Did the steel > wool and kersoine take the all the pits out or did you leave some? I think (but don't remember clearly from 1969) there were some small pits that remained after cleaning in at least some of the cylinders in the R-1. In the ohv six there were no pits. I don't remember what grade steel wool I used in the R-1, but I test cleaned some of the ohv using fine steel wool. I think coarse would scratch the cylinder wall more than you would want. I didn't turn the R-1 until after I had cleaned what I could. I put oil in the cylinders and turned the engine to clean where the old water/rust line couldn't be reached to complete the cleaning. Paul Johnson I guess if the cylinder wall was made slightly larger by the steel wool, say .002" the rings would move out to make up for it. > > Paul, did the R1 engine have pits in the cylinder wall? Did the steel > > wool and kersoine take the all the pits out or did you leave some? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > couldn't be reached to complete the cleaning. > Paul Johnson > I guess if the cylinder wall was made slightly larger by the steel > wool, say .002" the rings would move out to make up for it. No....they won't ! First, you haven't taken .002" out "evenly" around the whole cylinder. So the rings "might" expand "somewhat" into the bulge. You have taken "SOME" amount, "unevenly" of a small spot somewhat around the cylinder diameter. Even if it does run for a short period...my guess...about 2500 miles is where the rings will start failing, and that's if you drive it easy! Around 3000...smoke! Mike The fine steel wool takes virtually nothing off the bore, it just take off the surface oxidation. IF the bores are not badly pitted, you may never have a issue. >> I guess if the cylinder wall was made slightly larger by the steel >> wool, say .002" the rings would move out to make up for it. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Mike SignatureJP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 65 Daytona Sports Sedan 64 Daytona HT 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk (Black) 63 R1 GT Hawk 63 Avanti R1 63 Avanti R2 63 Daytona convert 62 Lark 2 door 60 Hawk 60 Lark Convert 51 Commander In my opinon, it would be damn near impossible to remove .002 from a Stude cylinder bore using fine steel wool. .002 rust, yes, cylinder material, no. Remember, high nickle steel content. >> I guess if the cylinder wall was made slightly larger by the steel >> wool, say .002" the rings would move out to make up for it. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Mike I can't believe the shortcuts mentioned here. Might as well pour beet juice in there and sing to it. Doesn't anyone want to fix their Studebaker correctly anymore? Or are we going to get the reputation for sawdust in the trans and bananas in the rear end? <g> After reading some of the stuff here, some will make a list of who not to buy an engine (or car) from... Jeff (I moved 7000+ pounds of Stude stuff today!) Rice "Ron Butts" wrote... > In my opinon, it would be damn near impossible to remove .002 from a Stude > cylinder bore using fine steel wool. .002 rust, yes, cylinder material, > no. Remember, high nickle steel content. >> No....they won't ! >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> period...my guess...about 2500 miles is where the rings will start >> failing, and that's if you drive it easy! Around 3000...smoke! >>> I guess if the cylinder wall was made slightly larger by the steel >>> wool, say .002" the rings would move out to make up for it. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com I always put the bananas in the trans.... > I can't believe the shortcuts mentioned here. > Might as well pour beet juice in there and sing to it. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >>>> I guess if the cylinder wall was made slightly larger by the steel >>>> wool, say .002" the rings would move out to make up for it. SignatureRemove the studebaker to email. The only label that fits: http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_6966.shtml "Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1908 1953 Starlight Coupe 1954 Starlight Coupe R1/4-speed 1958 Silver Hawk 1960 Frua Italia Larks (2 - they're here!) 1962 Lark VI 1962 Lark Convertible 1963 Avanti R2 R4324 1963 Lark Cruiser (R2 3/4 clone in progress) 1963 GT Hawk 1963 Daytona Wagonaire 1964 Cruiser (Survivor) 1954 3R11 1956 2E7 2004 Porsche Carrera 4S 2000 Ducati 748 2002 Jeep Overland http://homepage.mac.com/pdrnec/PhotoAlbum81.html <g> I'm just glad you still read my post's <lol> Jeff "Pat Drnec" wrote... >I always put the bananas in the trans.... >> I can't believe the shortcuts mentioned here. >> Might as well pour beet juice in there and sing to it. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >>>>> I guess if the cylinder wall was made slightly larger by the steel >>>>> wool, say .002" the rings would move out to make up for it. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Some people put the bananas in the rear end (:-) >I always put the bananas in the trans.... > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >>>>> I guess if the cylinder wall was made slightly larger by the steel >>>>> wool, say .002" the rings would move out to make up for it. Studebaker guys don't do that Alex. > Some people put the bananas in the rear end (:-) > [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > 2002 Jeep Overland > > http://homepage.mac.com/pdrnec/PhotoAlbum81.html Jeff, since both of the NOS engines Paul mentioned passed through my hands, I can tell you that him removing minor surface rust on those engines at least worked out just fine. eve the shortcuts mentioned here. > Might as well pour beet juice in there and sing to it. > Doesn't anyone want to fix their Studebaker correctly anymore? [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >>>> I guess if the cylinder wall was made slightly larger by the steel >>>> wool, say .002" the rings would move out to make up for it. SignatureJP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 65 Daytona Sports Sedan 64 Daytona HT 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk (Black) 63 R1 GT Hawk 63 Avanti R1 63 Avanti R2 63 Daytona convert 62 Lark 2 door 60 Hawk 60 Lark Convert 51 Commander Hmmm - doesn't sound like he spent nearly enough money on it. (I'm way too susceptible to the 'as long as I'm in there' syndrome). <G> BTW, got the 54 motor back together and put the R3 headers on with 2 1/2" duals into Flowmasters - damn, that thing sounds sweet! > Jeff, since both of the NOS engines Paul mentioned passed through my > hands, I can tell you that him removing minor surface rust on those [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >>>>> I guess if the cylinder wall was made slightly larger by the steel >>>>> wool, say .002" the rings would move out to make up for it. SignatureRemove the studebaker to email. The only label that fits: http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_6966.shtml "Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1908 1953 Starlight Coupe 1954 Starlight Coupe R1/4-speed 1958 Silver Hawk 1960 Frua Italia Larks (2 - they're here!) 1962 Lark VI 1962 Lark Convertible 1963 Avanti R2 R4324 1963 Lark Cruiser (R2 3/4 clone in progress) 1963 GT Hawk 1963 Daytona Wagonaire 1964 Cruiser (Survivor) 1954 3R11 1956 2E7 2004 Porsche Carrera 4S 2000 Ducati 748 2002 Jeep Overland http://homepage.mac.com/pdrnec/PhotoAlbum81.html Well OK, if you say so..... But as a casual Stude enthusiast reading a forum on Studebaker repair, maintenance, and (gasp) restoration, I'd be suspicious of all the repair suggestions tossed casually out here for all to read. Jeff (once in print, it might become gospel..) Rice "John Poulos" wrote.. > Jeff, since both of the NOS engines Paul mentioned passed through my > hands, I can tell you that him removing minor surface rust on those [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >>>>> I guess if the cylinder wall was made slightly larger by the steel >>>>> wool, say .002" the rings would move out to make up for it. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Why wait until SB Jeff? The FL State Meet is in October in JAX. I just wasn't planning on driving the Avanti this time. On the engine topic I am still exploring options and taking in everyones feedback. I don't want another R4 Avanti engine project which easily cost me north of 10K. This weekend I am going to pull the piston from the scored bore and when I do take a close look at the wear on the bearings. I am also toying with the idea of having the scored cylinder sleeved if the bearings are decent. If the bearings are scored from wear I will have the engine bored, new pistons, bearings etc. > Well OK, if you say so..... > But as a casual Stude enthusiast reading a forum on Studebaker repair, [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > 60 Lark Convert > > 51 Commander > I guess if the cylinder wall was made slightly larger by the steel > wool, say .002" the rings would move out to make up for it. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >>couldn't be reached to complete the cleaning. >>Paul Johnson Need I even mention that if one uses steel wool anywhere inside an engine, one should be sure to clean the bores THOROUGHLY before reassembly... nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel Jeff Rice wrote: "Doesn't anyone want to fix their Studebaker correctly anymore?" Like what Jeff? Putting a chevy engine in your Studebaker <G> Hey, look at it this way, if you tired cleaning a scored cylinder bore and it didn't work out, as in worst case the engine smoked, have you really caused any damage? Could the engine not be pulled out and properly bored? This engine sat dead in my garage up until now and is at least turning freely. Saw dust in th tranny? Hell no!!! > > I guess if the cylinder wall was made slightly larger by the steel > > wool, say .002" the rings would move out to make up for it. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > replace "fly" with "com" to reply. > http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel LOL... OK, OK.. So you are an oatmeal guy <g>... But don't castrate me because of my poor purchase decisions. That '69 350 LT1 pink rod 4 bolt main T350 Z28 setup was in my CE when I bought it. I catch crap from the bow tie guys because that combo is worth a lot more in a Camaro than in a Stude <lol>.. But I have a full flow 289 with a Meyers 200R4 adapter and a 200R4 (Calvintrans) awaiting the day I blow the s#!t out of the SBC that was in the CE when I bought it. But I have to blow it up first... Here's a double dog dare for you... We can have a grudge race at SB 2007... I will wind the living piss out of my SBC trying to catch your R4 clone. I'll even add nitrous and tow the bitch home after I puke it on the drag strip. Then I'll break down and stuff that overweight Stude block into my CE <lol> Jeff (starting drag racer wars early <boseg>) Rice "Michael - Roseland FL" wrote... > Like what Jeff? Putting a chevy engine in your Studebaker <G> Hey, > look at it this way, if you tired cleaning a scored cylinder bore and > it didn't work out, as in worst case the engine smoked, have you really > caused any damage? Could the engine not be pulled out and properly > bored? This engine sat dead in my garage up until now and is at least > turning freely. Saw dust in th tranny? Hell no!!! > Jeff Rice wrote: > > "Doesn't anyone want to fix their Studebaker correctly anymore?" SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
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