 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Car Forum / Antique and Collectibles / Studebaker / August 2006carb size
This is for you guys who are always asking abour carb size. Don't be wondering why your mileage goes to hell after you install that 650 CFM Edelbrock AFB "This is a question I get asked a lot. What carburetor would be best for my engine? Whether it be a 1, 2, or 4 barrel, here is a little help for you. There is a formula that will get you very close to the proper cfm for your engine. The formula goes like this: cubic displacement divided by 2 (ex: 351=175.5) maximum rpm divided by 1728 (ex: 6000 rpm=3.47) multiply those two figuires (ex: 175.5 x 3.47=608.98 cfm) Hold on we are not done. You now have to factor in volumetric efficiency. A Nascar race engine runs at 85%-90% volumetric efficiency. A normal street car wil be 75-80%, depending on what you have done with your heads and exhaust. Ex: 608.98 x 75%=456.74cfm With carburetors, bigger is not better. You will not get very good results with an 850 double pumper on your small block Chevy. If you are after good idle quality, fair fuel mileage, and good performance, stick with this equation. The boys at GM and Ford used this equation for many years and it works! You can not change the laws of physics. I would like to thank Jon Enyeart of Pony Carburetors for teaching me how to properly restore and install a carburetor. He is the Grand Wizard of carburetion." Kurt Praxl Kp Carbs So why is it that the smallest carb Edelbrock sells is 500CFM and their applications guide lists 600 - 800 CFM for most applications? I'm seriously confused by all this carb stuff, one would think that if most V8s needed a 350 - 450 CFM, that's what aftermarket manufacturers would supply. Not taking issue with your math, just confused as to why a 1406 works so damn well on all my Studes? > This is for you guys who are always asking abour carb size. Don't be > wondering why your mileage goes to hell after you install that 650 CFM [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Kp Carbs  SignatureRemove the studebaker to email. The only label that fits: http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_6966.shtml "Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1908 1953 Starlight Coupe 1954 Starlight Coupe R1/4-speed 1958 Silver Hawk 1960 Frua Italia Larks (2 - they're here!) 1962 Lark VI 1962 Lark Convertible 1963 Avanti R2 R4324 1963 Lark Cruiser (R2 3/4 clone in progress) 1963 GT Hawk 1963 Daytona Wagonaire 1964 Cruiser (Survivor) 1954 3R11 1956 2E7 2004 Porsche Carrera 4S 2000 Ducati 748 2002 Jeep Overland http://homepage.mac.com/pdrnec/PhotoAlbum81.html What is a 1406? Does a supercharger change the formula? >So why is it that the smallest carb Edelbrock sells is 500CFM and their >applications guide lists 600 - 800 CFM for most applications? I'm [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> >> Kp Carbs SignatureAllen French 600CFM Edelbrock electric choke > What is a 1406? Does a supercharger change the formula? > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >>> Kp Carbs SignatureRemove the studebaker to email. The only label that fits: http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_6966.shtml "Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1908 1953 Starlight Coupe 1954 Starlight Coupe R1/4-speed 1958 Silver Hawk 1960 Frua Italia Larks (2 - they're here!) 1962 Lark VI 1962 Lark Convertible 1963 Avanti R2 R4324 1963 Lark Cruiser (R2 3/4 clone in progress) 1963 GT Hawk 1963 Daytona Wagonaire 1964 Cruiser (Survivor) 1954 3R11 1956 2E7 2004 Porsche Carrera 4S 2000 Ducati 748 2002 Jeep Overland http://homepage.mac.com/pdrnec/PhotoAlbum81.html How timely, I was just looking at the Edelbrock web site on carbs. Wondering if they have a 500cfm that would replace the WCFB on my '54 232 coupe. It has the '55 President manifold, Carb and air cleaner. The WCFB runs good but sure gives me fits on hot restarts. Also the bowls dry out when it sits. You'll need to use a spacer, both for linkage clearance and butterfly size. They do have a 500 CFM, both manual and electric choke. You can get your WCFB rebuilt, if you want my guy's info email me and I'll send you his # (here in So Cal). > How timely, I was just looking at the Edelbrock web site on carbs. > Wondering if they have a 500cfm that would replace the WCFB on my '54 > 232 coupe. It has the '55 President manifold, Carb and air cleaner. The > WCFB runs good but sure gives me fits on hot restarts. Also the bowls > dry out when it sits. SignatureRemove the studebaker to email. The only label that fits: http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_6966.shtml "Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1908 1953 Starlight Coupe 1954 Starlight Coupe R1/4-speed 1958 Silver Hawk 1960 Frua Italia Larks (2 - they're here!) 1962 Lark VI 1962 Lark Convertible 1963 Avanti R2 R4324 1963 Lark Cruiser (R2 3/4 clone in progress) 1963 GT Hawk 1963 Daytona Wagonaire 1964 Cruiser (Survivor) 1954 3R11 1956 2E7 2004 Porsche Carrera 4S 2000 Ducati 748 2002 Jeep Overland http://homepage.mac.com/pdrnec/PhotoAlbum81.html If only they made a kit for Studes - damn, this would look cool. http://www.webercarbsdirect.com/v8_weber_conversions > How timely, I was just looking at the Edelbrock web site on carbs. > Wondering if they have a 500cfm that would replace the WCFB on my '54 > 232 coupe. It has the '55 President manifold, Carb and air cleaner. The > WCFB runs good but sure gives me fits on hot restarts. Also the bowls > dry out when it sits. SignatureRemove the studebaker to email. The only label that fits: http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_6966.shtml "Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1908 1953 Starlight Coupe 1954 Starlight Coupe R1/4-speed 1958 Silver Hawk 1960 Frua Italia Larks (2 - they're here!) 1962 Lark VI 1962 Lark Convertible 1963 Avanti R2 R4324 1963 Lark Cruiser (R2 3/4 clone in progress) 1963 GT Hawk 1963 Daytona Wagonaire 1964 Cruiser (Survivor) 1954 3R11 1956 2E7 2004 Porsche Carrera 4S 2000 Ducati 748 2002 Jeep Overland http://homepage.mac.com/pdrnec/PhotoAlbum81.html Gee, I don't think my air cleaner would fit, and I don't really wanna cut holes in the hood. Thanks for the info Pat. > If only they made a kit for Studes - damn, this would look cool. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> The WCFB runs good but sure gives me fits on hot restarts. Also the >> bowls dry out when it sits. Why do I have a feeling that Pat secretly wants one of those old Ferraris with six Webers all lined up in a row? nate (well, so do I, kinda...) > Gee, I don't think my air cleaner would fit, and I don't really wanna > cut holes in the hood. Thanks for the info Pat. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >>> The WCFB runs good but sure gives me fits on hot restarts. Also the >>> bowls dry out when it sits. Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel It's a secret? From who? <G> > Why do I have a feeling that Pat secretly wants one of those old > Ferraris with six Webers all lined up in a row? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >>>> cleaner. The WCFB runs good but sure gives me fits on hot restarts. >>>> Also the bowls dry out when it sits. SignatureRemove the studebaker to email. The only label that fits: http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_6966.shtml "Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1908 1953 Starlight Coupe 1954 Starlight Coupe R1/4-speed 1958 Silver Hawk 1960 Frua Italia Larks (2 - they're here!) 1962 Lark VI 1962 Lark Convertible 1963 Avanti R2 R4324 1963 Lark Cruiser (R2 3/4 clone in progress) 1963 GT Hawk 1963 Daytona Wagonaire 1964 Cruiser (Survivor) 1954 3R11 1956 2E7 2004 Porsche Carrera 4S 2000 Ducati 748 2002 Jeep Overland http://homepage.mac.com/pdrnec/PhotoAlbum81.html > If only they made a kit for Studes - damn, this would look cool. > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > 2002 Jeep Overland > http://homepage.mac.com/pdrnec/PhotoAlbum81.html there was a 4 bbl. flange to dual webers (horizontal mounted) with neat twisted tube design, also could use dellorto <sp?> carbs. To all of the folks running an internal combustion engine with too big a carburetor that "runs just fine" or "runs great"... What do you base this on? If you've never run the same engine/car with different size carburetors and actually taken the time to find the correct tuneup for each carb. size....you have no basis for saying "it runs just fine", or "it runs great". Fine and great are VERY subjective adjectives. But without other information...maybe...just maybe, something else just might run better ! There are three or four different methods for finding the "correct" carburetor size for your particular engine size "and" it's intended purpose. They are all very close to the same...within about 25 / 35cfm. Now you say (none have so far!), what about the Chevy and Ford 302 of the late 60's? they both had 780cfm carburetors on them ! Yes they did. The were the correct "combination" of parts that yealded a fairly high rpm engine. Both of those engines loved running down the freeway at 4000 rpm. I know I had the daily use of a good running 69, Z-28 Camaro...with the 780 Holley (though it was listed in Chevy books as an 800cfm). Funny too...neither of those engines got much for milage! Do most small cu. in. Stude drivers have 3.70 and lower gear ratios...probably not, do most Stude engines have a cam that lift's the valves over .465 gross lift, probably not, larger thAn 2.00" intake valves, angin, most likely not. I'd also bet that the worst flowing Chevy or Ford head in the late 60's flowed better than most Stude heads...some that have even been ported! So...back we go the formulas. I've messed with carburetors and spacers for a long time, time enough to know that if you want the best from a stock to moderatly modified Stude engine...stay with what the experts suggest...500 cfm. Will a mildly modified 289 Stude engine run just fine with an 800 cfm Holley...that's tuned right....yea. But not as good as it would with a smaller carb. siting on the manifold. This doesn't apply to drag race or Bonneville...flat out type "combinations" ! Even the engines for racing only...small engines will work just fine without resorting to two Dominator (Holley) carburetors! Mike I guess all of us running 600 cfm Edelbrock 1406's on 289s are wrong. I guess that I must be kidding myself when I think I'm getting 22+ mpg on the highway in my '61 Hawk. I ran the original carburetor for the first year, until even after a rebuild I was only getting around 14 mpg. I don't see any reason to run out and buy a 500 cfm carburetor to put on an engine that's running this good. Lee > To all of the folks running an internal combustion engine with too big > a carburetor that "runs just fine" or "runs great"... [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > Mike I routinely get 25-26 mpg in the PowerHawk with a 2bbl Stromberg... JT > I guess all of us running 600 cfm Edelbrock 1406's on 289s are wrong. I > guess that I must be kidding myself when I think I'm getting 22+ mpg on the [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > > > Mike Lee A. ...note Grumpys post !!! Many others have stated a very simillar thing!!? Wonder why...maybe better tuning? Along with the original post....just stating numerical facts! Maybe you didn't have the 500 tuned quite as well as the larger carb. is!?!?! Maybe? And as for the larger carburetors.....as in the Chevy, Ford, Chrys. note....read that "performance" engine!!! Some get so defensive when things don't go their way. Partially why I don't post here that much...But on this one, since the original post was basically correct and some decided to blast that post, I just figured I jump in and help out the original information with more fact and my own personal knowledge. And as you may have read in my note (maybe slightly between the lines!), engines are a combination of parts. If a stock cam, heads, manifold (both intake and exhaust) are all designed for "X" amount of intake volume and velocity, and one changes "one" of those parameters without changing most of the others.....the good combination of part design, just went down the tubes...so to speak! And as I basically said...if one changes many of the designed parts to work at a higher rpm...eg. heads, cam, exhaust, intake manifold, gear ratio,...etc., etc., THEN a larger carburetor may very well help. Be my guest...blast away. Mike > Be my guest...blast away. Was gonna, but you took the wind out of my sails. <G> SignatureDave Lester Dave's Place Home of the Internationally Renowned Studebakers, 'Sheba and Goliath See pictures at www.davesplaceinc.com Well, I only got 24 mpg when I went to Tulsa back in '01 but then I was driving 70-80 mph... <G> JT > > Be my guest...blast away. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Home of the Internationally Renowned Studebakers, 'Sheba and Goliath > See pictures at www.davesplaceinc.com I am running two correct number Carter AFB carbs sequentially on the R4. It runs excellent! When I first tuned the engine I used fatter rods but learned it ran much better with skinny rods. The way the engine is set up is the way Studebaker did it except for the fact I do not have domed pistons with the 12 1/4 to one compression. I have closer to 9 1/2 to one. > Well, I only got 24 mpg when I went to Tulsa back in '01 but then I was > driving 70-80 mph... [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Home of the Internationally Renowned Studebakers, 'Sheba and Goliath > > See pictures at www.davesplaceinc.com > Lee A. ...note Grumpys post !!! Many others have stated a very > simillar thing!!? Wonder why...maybe better tuning? > > Along with the original post....just stating numerical facts! > Maybe you didn't have the 500 tuned quite as well as the larger carb. > is!?!?! Maybe? You tell me. I had the carburetor adjusted by a knowledgeable Studebaker guy, an old time garage (who also did the rebuild) and f.cked with it myself. The Edelbrock I took out of the box and dropped it on the engine and have been running it without turning a screw since. Now go take your blood pressure medication. Lee I had a 352 Ford PU one time, milage SUCKED.. factory Ford carb 2 b.. got 9.. and I got tired of it, and talked to a guy.. bought an adapter plate for a quadrajet.. and REJETTED it.. took most of an afternoon.. took the primaries from 105 down to what it would run on.. which happened to be .055.. changed the secondaries down from 140's to .060's.. got 19 MPG at 70 MPH then.. now, if I WERE to find a DECENT quadrajet, no matter the size, as long as the primary and secondary plates were CLOSE to the same size I would put it on my 289.. and MY rear end SUCKS big time.. its a 2.42 the best we can figure.. but, we got a guy in the local club that can get a bit over 26 mpg on his 289, 3sp and OD, driving it at 60-70 mph.. --Shiva-- > To all of the folks running an internal combustion engine with too big > a carburetor that "runs just fine" or "runs great"... [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > Mike Mike, Seems that Studebaker used a larger AFB on the R 1 than on the regular 289. Somewhere I once read that they used a 637 CFM on the R 1 ?? I have never heard of that size anywhere else. If that is in fact true, seems that a 650 CFM might not be all that much too big for a mildly modified 289 ?? Just an obvservaton - I don't really know. Jack Geeeeeeeez... A whole Studebaker can be bought for that money.. JT > If only they made a kit for Studes - damn, this would look cool. > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > 2002 Jeep Overland > http://homepage.mac.com/pdrnec/PhotoAlbum81.html You would be amazed how well the webers work in a blow thru application. My son runs one with only a sealed box taking the place of his air filter.Used on his 1641 cc drag VW bug(100 cubic inches-6.48 @ 106 MPH in the 1/8 mile runs) This setup was used in a street car for a year,before it went full time racing. 20 psi boost.. Freddy > If only they made a kit for Studes - damn, this would look cool. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> The WCFB runs good but sure gives me fits on hot restarts. Also the >> bowls dry out when it sits. Make your own (:-) Four Webbers would set you back over $2000 just for the carbs though. Their setup show look different than earlier manifolds that had Y adaptors to feed the wide spaced barrels down to the narrow siamese intake ports. These manifolds look like they have plenum chambers that crossfeed. I may be wrong there but if they do you lose the advantage of one barrel feeding only one cylinder. It was explained to me that if it is set up that way the car is not overcarbureted at low speeds. Fuel injection would be cheaper. Wouldn't look as cool though. > If only they made a kit for Studes - damn, this would look cool. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> runs good but sure gives me fits on hot restarts. Also the bowls dry out >> when it sits. > Fuel injection would be cheaper. Wouldn't look as cool though. Unless maybe an old Hilborn set up. Joe Roberts > How timely, I was just looking at the Edelbrock web site on carbs. > Wondering if they have a 500cfm that would replace the WCFB on my '54 > 232 coupe. It has the '55 President manifold, Carb and air cleaner. The > WCFB runs good but sure gives me fits on hot restarts. Also the bowls > dry out when it sits. I have the 1403 on my '63 Cruiser. It's a 500 cfm carb and it runs great. Chip Signature-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ -------------------- Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB Is a 625 CFM to much for an R2 Avanti? >> How timely, I was just looking at the Edelbrock web site on carbs. >> Wondering if they have a 500cfm that would replace the WCFB on my '54 [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Chip SignatureAllen French Okay, maybe I should know this but I don't. What is the maximum RPM of an R1 engine? Joe Roberts > This is for you guys who are always asking abour carb size. Don't be > wondering why your mileage goes to hell after you install that 650 CFM [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Kp Carbs A local repair shop owner does a car talk radio show on Saturday mornings. His shop has a chassis dyno and does a lot of performance work. Just last Saturday a caller asked him about installing an Edelbrock on his Camaro. Tom told him that compared to the Quadajet already on the car, the Edelbrock was junk! |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2009 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.