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Car Forum / Subaru Cars / May 2004

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Tires are out-of-round

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Yousuf Khan - 20 Apr 2004 20:52 GMT
I went on vacation for a couple of months, and left my Outback sitting
inside my garage during that time. Got back and there is a severe vibration
in the steering above 90kph (55mph). Took it to the dealership to have them
rebalance the tires, and they came back and said that it can't be
rebalanced, everytime they add weight to it in the balancing machine it asks
for more weight to be added. They suggested that the tires are "out of
round". Now these are expensive tires (Nokians) and I'd rather not have to
completely replace them. I was wondering if there was an accepted way of
getting tires back into round. I was thinking that maybe I would overinflate
them to say about 45psi or something and leave them that way for a couple of
weeks of normal usage. Would this work?

   Yousuf Khan

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Humans: contact me at ykhan at rogers dot com
Spambots: just reply to this email address ;-)

TT - 20 Apr 2004 22:21 GMT
Uh, don't overinflate. That's a serious safety compromise.

You may be able to have the tire "trued" or shaved to put it back in round?

Take it as a lesson learned and next time you leave your car sitting for
months, put it on blocks or have somebody come by & drive/move it every
couple of days.

Tires are an important part of vehicle safety. I personally would replace
all the tires.

-T

> I went on vacation for a couple of months, and left my Outback sitting
> inside my garage during that time. Got back and there is a severe vibration
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>     Yousuf Khan
Yousuf Khan - 20 Apr 2004 23:22 GMT
> Uh, don't overinflate. That's a serious safety compromise.

Why would it be a safety compromise. Don't these cars come out of the
factory floor with heavily overinflated tires while they are being shipped
or transported to their destiny?

> You may be able to have the tire "trued" or shaved to put it back in round?
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Tires are an important part of vehicle safety. I personally would replace
> all the tires.

Actually, I did arrange to have it driven around from time to time while I
was away, but the person who was supposed to do it (my brother) never did
it.

   Yousuf Khan
TW-Ohio - 21 Apr 2004 01:38 GMT
> Re: Tires are out-of-round
>From: "Yousuf Khan" news.20.bbbl67@spamgourmet.com
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Why would it be a safety compromise (that *was* a question, right?) ? Don't
these cars come out of the
>factory floor with heavily overinflated tires while they are being shipped
>or transported to their destiny?

Maybe, but doubtful as it would serve no purpose as the US built cars make it
to the dealers in as little as 1-3 days, and the imported Subies can make it to
the US midwest in 10-14 days from their build date in Japan.  Neither of our
Indiana-built Legacies were driven with more than 14 miles on the odometer
prior to delivery.

>> You may be able to have the tire "trued" or shaved to put it back in round?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>it.
>   Yousuf Khan

Good advice..  Well, except for your brother!  Use my neighbor - he always
moves my old heap to the other side or end of the drive - just to keep the
appearance of someone being in the house!
But if the tire became permanently flatspotted I'd complan to your dealer
(which you've already done) or then to Bridgestone and ask for replacements or
at least a decent discount on the next set.
 Terry - '02 Regatta-Red 5spd Legacy GT wagon, 29,000 miles,
   Yakima / TandeMover / Rockymount rack.
   '03 Silver Legacy SE auto-sedan - 6150 miles.
   '85 CH250 - 4060miles!
   To reply, get rid of the "nonsense"
Frank Logullo - 20 Apr 2004 23:09 GMT
> I went on vacation for a couple of months, and left my Outback sitting
> inside my garage during that time. Got back and there is a severe vibration
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> them to say about 45psi or something and leave them that way for a couple of
> weeks of normal usage. Would this work?

This used to be a problem with tires with nylon tire cord.  I was called
flat spotting and related to nylons glass transition temperature.  Spots
would iron out after running on the road for a while.  Your's too may return
to normal.  The higher pressure may also help.
Frank
nospam - 21 Apr 2004 01:03 GMT
> rebalanced, everytime they add weight to it in the balancing machine it asks
> for more weight to be added. They suggested that the tires are "out of

Why would extended sitting around change the weight distribution of the
tires?  Is there some leak sealant inside that flowed down and collected
on the bottom?
TT - 21 Apr 2004 01:23 GMT
It has nothing to do with weight distribution. The shape of the tire has
changed causing an inability to balance and a vibration at speed.

Check this link out for a device which you put under your car tires to
prevent flatspotting.

http://www.tirecradle.com/tcradle.htm

If you leave a car sit long enough, the tires will get flat spots/go out of
round. It just happens. I don't know why. I have had it happen on my
restored VW bug and a honda that I have parked indefinitely.

-T

> > rebalanced, everytime they add weight to it in the balancing machine it asks
> > for more weight to be added. They suggested that the tires are "out of
>
> Why would extended sitting around change the weight distribution of the
> tires?  Is there some leak sealant inside that flowed down and collected
> on the bottom?
CompUser - 21 Apr 2004 10:29 GMT
In article <7Qihc.20293$bz5.4815@nntp-
post.primus.ca>, x@x.x says...

> > rebalanced, everytime they add weight to it in the balancing machine it asks
> > for more weight to be added. They suggested that the tires are "out of
>
> Why would extended sitting around change the weight distribution of the
> tires?  Is there some leak sealant inside that flowed down and collected
> on the bottom?

Sounds like they "flat-spotted".  The RE-92 OEMs
on my WRX do that if they sit even 24
hours...takes about a mile before it abates.

I'd try the inflating em to max sidewall pressure
and driving for a week or so.  If that doesn't do
it, they're probably done for.

Steve
Yousuf Khan - 21 Apr 2004 17:18 GMT
> > rebalanced, everytime they add weight to it in the balancing machine it asks
> > for more weight to be added. They suggested that the tires are "out of
>
> Why would extended sitting around change the weight distribution of the
> tires?  Is there some leak sealant inside that flowed down and collected
> on the bottom?

Yes, actually there was some leak sealant in that tire. Would that cause
that much of a difference?

   Yousuf Khan
NoSpam - 21 Apr 2004 18:47 GMT
If you mean the leak sealant that you spray into the tire through the valve,
then yes it does make a difference. That stuff can totally mess up your
balancing.... You need to clean out the gunk and re-balance the tires. Might
fix your problem....

> > > rebalanced, everytime they add weight to it in the balancing machine it
> asks
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>     Yousuf Khan
Yousuf Khan - 21 Apr 2004 20:07 GMT
> If you mean the leak sealant that you spray into the tire through the valve,
> then yes it does make a difference. That stuff can totally mess up your
> balancing.... You need to clean out the gunk and re-balance the tires. Might
> fix your problem....

Actually, just talked to the service manager at the dealership and told him
about the Gunk, and he said that they were all requiring more and more
weight to be added, even though only one of them had the Gunk in them. He
did note that the one of them was acting more funky than the others, which
would likely be the one with the Gunk in it.

   Yousuf Khan
CompUser - 22 Apr 2004 07:00 GMT
> Yes, actually there was some leak sealant in that tire. Would that cause
> that much of a difference?

Oh, HALE yes!

That's probably your entire problem right there.

Steve
David - 21 Apr 2004 01:29 GMT
I had a car sitting with a flat for awhile.  Pumped it up.  It thumped a little at first then
behaved like a round tire and worked fine.  It was an old belted, bias-ply tire, on an
old car, a long time ago, so modern tires may behave differently.  But mine bacame
round again pretty quickly.

Good luck.
Edward Hayes - 21 Apr 2004 13:35 GMT
I would set tire pressure to the maximum pressure indicated on the sidewall
and leave it and drive it for a few days and your trouble may go away. If
the tires have nylon in the cords, the nylon will stretch causing your
problem and should go away. If this doesn't work contact the tire
manufacture for advice or in retrospect may do this first. Depending on tire
mileage you may have a warranty issue. Repost here to keep us informed. Ed
> I had a car sitting with a flat for awhile.  Pumped it up.  It thumped a little at first then
> behaved like a round tire and worked fine.  It was an old belted, bias-ply tire, on an
> old car, a long time ago, so modern tires may behave differently.  But mine bacame
> round again pretty quickly.
>
> Good luck.
Rick Courtright - 21 Apr 2004 16:06 GMT
> them to say about 45psi or something and leave them that way for a couple of
> weeks of normal usage. Would this work?

Hi,

Don't know if it will work with your tires, since this is definitely a
YMMV situation, but I've had tires on a car that sits for months at a
time (not on blocks) "round out" after a couple of weeks of normal
inflation and use. You might try this, keeping the speed below the
vibration point as much as possible, before going for new tires. (Those
who were around in the days of nylon cord, bias ply tires may remember
this as being almost a daily problem!) I've heard of people shaving
tires with varying degrees of success, but I think it worked better for
a tire that was made out of round as opposed to being flat-spotted from
sitting.

Good luck!

Rick
Yousuf Khan - 21 Apr 2004 17:28 GMT
> Don't know if it will work with your tires, since this is definitely a
> YMMV situation, but I've had tires on a car that sits for months at a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> a tire that was made out of round as opposed to being flat-spotted from
> sitting.

Well, the vibration point seems to start just around my normal highway
speeds (55mph and above), so keeping it below that speed would darn near
impossible, considering the local traffic patterns.

But I will try the inflate to maximum technique you suggested.

   Yousuf Khan
TT - 21 Apr 2004 21:44 GMT
Keep in mind as tires heat up, so does the internal air pressure. I'd
probably keep it 4 or 5 PSI below maximum to stay safe.

-T

> > Don't know if it will work with your tires, since this is definitely a
> > YMMV situation, but I've had tires on a car that sits for months at a
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>     Yousuf Khan
John O - 21 Apr 2004 21:52 GMT
> Keep in mind as tires heat up, so does the internal air pressure. I'd
> probably keep it 4 or 5 PSI below maximum to stay safe.

Isn't the max pressure stated as cold pressure? That is, if my tires say 33
psi, I can safely inflate them to 33 when cold and not worry about when they
heat up...they're designed to handle the increase.

-John O
Rick Courtright - 21 Apr 2004 22:29 GMT
> psi, I can safely inflate them to 33 when cold and not worry about when they
> heat up...they're designed to handle the increase.

Yes. In fact, you will often see specific warnings AGAINST reducing
pressure when the tires are hot.

Rick
Edward Hayes - 22 Apr 2004 16:51 GMT
Right on John O. The maximum pressure listed on the tire sidewall is the max
recommended cold pressure. Ed Hayes
> > Keep in mind as tires heat up, so does the internal air pressure. I'd
> > probably keep it 4 or 5 PSI below maximum to stay safe.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> -John O
Ken Gilbert - 23 Apr 2004 15:53 GMT
> I went on vacation for a couple of months, and left my Outback sitting
> inside my garage during that time. Got back and there is a severe vibration
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>     Yousuf Khan

whenever this has happened to me, i've ignored it and it went away on its own.

the tire with sealant in it may not be able to be rescued though.

jm2c
ken
Yousuf Khan - 23 Apr 2004 20:46 GMT
> the tire with sealant in it may not be able to be rescued though.

Why?

   Yousuf Khan
Rick Courtright - 23 Apr 2004 22:13 GMT
> > the tire with sealant in it may not be able to be rescued though.
>
> Why?

Hi,

It's ~possible~ the sealant has coagulated into a mass at one location
in the tire. If you weren't having problems with the rest of the tires,
too, I'd suggest squirting a small amount of water into the tire with
the valve stem removed, then reinflating and driving. Many, if not most,
sealants are water-based and if they haven't dried completely may
reconstitute themselves slightly and spread around removing the "lump."

Rick
Yousuf Khan - 24 Apr 2004 00:18 GMT
> > > the tire with sealant in it may not be able to be rescued though.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> sealants are water-based and if they haven't dried completely may
> reconstitute themselves slightly and spread around removing the "lump."

No, it's not likely to have coagulated, the sealant was just put on recently
*after* the flatspotting took place. I figured that there might have been a
leak in the tire because it had gone low, so I put the sealant in. So it's a
recent application. Little did I realize that it would throw off the
balancing scales as much as it did.

Anyways, I've pumped the air upto 40psi in the front and 36psi in the rear
(heavier front end when not loaded in the back), up from 34 and 32
respectively. It seems to have made the vibration move up in speed range and
lessened the severity; it's now happening after 90km/h rather than 80 km/h.
I think if I pump it up another 2psi front and rear, it'll go away at my
usual highway driving speeds.

   Yousuf Khan
John O - 25 Apr 2004 14:22 GMT
> I think if I pump it up another 2psi front and rear, it'll go away at my
> usual highway driving speeds.

At 42 psi, you might be creating other problems, not the least of which
involves really bad emergency handling. I wouldn't run the tires at that
pressure, especially at highway speeds. But that's just me. :-)

-John O
Yousuf Khan - 25 Apr 2004 19:56 GMT
> > I think if I pump it up another 2psi front and rear, it'll go away at my
> > usual highway driving speeds.
>
> At 42 psi, you might be creating other problems, not the least of which
> involves really bad emergency handling. I wouldn't run the tires at that
> pressure, especially at highway speeds. But that's just me. :-)

Well, the snow is all gone now, so I don't think number of emergencies is
going to be all that great in number right now. Besides this is just
temporary until the vibration goes away. Once I start noticing no
vibrations, I'll start bleeding the tire pressures down again.

   Yousuf Khan
Paul Pluzhnikov - 25 Apr 2004 20:08 GMT
> Well, the snow is all gone now, so I don't think number of emergencies is
> going to be all that great in number right now.

You don't need "great number" of emergencies.
Just one is enough to kill you (or someone else).

Cheers,
Signature

In order to understand recursion you must first understand recursion.
Remove /-nsp/ for email.

John O - 26 Apr 2004 00:21 GMT
> Well, the snow is all gone now, so I don't think number of emergencies is
> going to be all that great in number right now. Besides this is just
> temporary until the vibration goes away. Once I start noticing no
> vibrations, I'll start bleeding the tire pressures down again.

If your Subie was able to hold the ground at 30 psi when you hit 1g on dry
concrete, at 42 psi it might just break loose at .5g. Your stopping distance
during a hard braking situation will be much longer. On wet pavement, you
could end up with handling similar to a frozen road. If you hit a big
pothole it could blow the tire. The strain on your suspension will be much
greater with overinflated tires.

That's the way I see it, but it's your car. :-)

-John O
Yousuf Khan - 26 Apr 2004 05:46 GMT
> If your Subie was able to hold the ground at 30 psi when you hit 1g
> on dry concrete, at 42 psi it might just break loose at .5g. Your
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> That's the way I see it, but it's your car. :-)

Okay, okay, everybody, I won't raise the pressure up any further than where
I've already taken it to. :-)

   Yousuf Khan
D L YOUNG - 26 Apr 2004 13:30 GMT
To Yousuf Khan-

I had a similar vibration as you described which turned out to be due to non
uniform wear which was in turn due to misalignment. The OEM tires could not
be saved and were replaced- after only about 13000 miles.

I will have to deal with similar vibration of my Nokian snow tires next
fall- but first I'll check how my new all-season tires behave in snow.

I suspect the car (02 Forester S) was was supplied originally with the
suspension misaligned but who is to know for sure? There was no obvious
problem on the road, but the car does handle better after realigning and
fitting new tires.

Hope this helps.. Doug.
Ken Gilbert - 26 Apr 2004 21:42 GMT
> > Well, the snow is all gone now, so I don't think number of emergencies is
> > going to be all that great in number right now. Besides this is just
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> -John O

whoh... what's all this about his tire pressures being "too high?"

stay under the tire mfg's rated sidewall max pressure and you will be
FINE.

in fact, i'll bet a new set of falken azenis that his tires with
doorsill sticker +10 psi pressure will outperform yours at doorsill
sticker pressures.

will his car eventually develop more squeaks and rattles from a
harder/harsher ride?  pretty likely.  will he lose 50% of his
traction... ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!  to even suggest that it is true speaks
volumes about your experience with adjusting tire pressures.

imo, people should stick to things they KNOW about.

ken
Cam Penner - 26 Apr 2004 21:53 GMT
In article <582a152f.0404261242.78f0bc64
@posting.google.com>, ride5000@ride.ri.net says...
> > > Well, the snow is all gone now, so I don't think number of emergencies is
> > > going to be all that great in number right now. Besides this is just
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> traction... ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!  to even suggest that it is true speaks
> volumes about your experience with adjusting tire pressures.

IME, too high a tire pressure (above recommended pressures)
gives:
1) rougher ride
2) better mileage
3) more "chatter" over bumps - ABS kicks in more often
4) more understeer
5) less traction

Yeah, increase the pressure if you're increasing the weight
of the vehicle - that keeps the footprint the same.  But a
25% change in PSI?  That's going to give you nearly 25%
less tire in contact with the road.  That's going to impact
your braking distances significantly.

> imo, people should stick to things they KNOW about.

Ain't this the truth.

Signature

Cam
'02 RS

Ken Gilbert - 27 Apr 2004 15:47 GMT
why don't any of you folks who think the doorsill pressure is gospel
go to a local autocross, and ask those who are ACTUALLY COMPETING what
tire pressures they run.  after you gather that information, ask those
folks who go to road racing tracks what tire pressures THEY run.
hint: it's around 40psi.

the doorsill pressure is a SUGGESTION to those who cannot determine
for themselves what a properly inflated tire wears like.  for 99% of
the time the doorsill pressure can be taken as a minimum, the sidewall
pressure the maximum, and the optimal somewhere between the two.  if
you drive like granny and you like a cushy soft "american" ride, then
sure, use the doorsill.  if you find yourself cornering like a madman
and the shoulders of your tires wearing the worse for it, up the
pressure.  your max lateral acceleration will increase as a result;
it's that simple.

as for this thread, i'm done arguing with armchair engineers.

ken gilbert
Paul Pluzhnikov - 27 Apr 2004 03:53 GMT
> will he lose 50% of his  traction... ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!  
> imo, people should stick to things they KNOW about.

May I ask you
- what do you *know* about traction of overinflated tires?
- whether you've ever ridden a "road" bicycle with tires at
 100+PSI, and had to do an emergency stop?

Cheers,
Signature

In order to understand recursion you must first understand recursion.
Remove /-nsp/ for email.

Edward Hayes - 27 Apr 2004 14:17 GMT
Since radials have steel belts to hold the tread flat I doubt that much
footprint is lost due to increasing the pressure (within limits of course).
People who autocross their vehicles often run 10 psig over the door sticker
for added traction and control. Ed

> > will he lose 50% of his  traction... ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!
> > imo, people should stick to things they KNOW about.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> In order to understand recursion you must first understand recursion.
> Remove /-nsp/ for email.
John O - 27 Apr 2004 15:13 GMT
> will his car eventually develop more squeaks and rattles from a
> harder/harsher ride?  pretty likely.  will he lose 50% of his
> traction... ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!  to even suggest that it is true speaks
> volumes about your experience with adjusting tire pressures.
>
> imo, people should stick to things they KNOW about.

Notice I used the word MIGHT.

The poor guy has rotten tires, and his gut tells him to blow them suckers up
to solve the problem. he's asking for a spinout or worse...maybe he spins
into you or me...but you 'holler' at me??? Whatever.

-John O
Yousuf Khan - 27 Apr 2004 16:51 GMT
> The poor guy has rotten tires, and his gut tells him to blow them
> suckers up to solve the problem. he's asking for a spinout or
> worse...maybe he spins into you or me...but you 'holler' at me???
> Whatever.

The theory remains just that a theory, the reality has now been tested. We
got some nice slick conditions here over the weekend, not snow, but cold
rain and hail, and the high pressure tires performed exactly as well as they
did at lower pressures. Could not tell a difference. Didn't take them any
easier than I normally do under these circumstances either.

   Yousuf Khan
John O - 27 Apr 2004 19:27 GMT
> The theory remains just that a theory, the reality has now been tested.

Thanks for taking that bullet. :-)

-John O
Yousuf Khan - 27 Apr 2004 21:26 GMT
>> The theory remains just that a theory, the reality has now been
>> tested.
>
> Thanks for taking that bullet. :-)

Actually remembering back to the debates about the Ford Explorer/Firestone
Wilderness tire blowout controversy, several years ago, I think the problems
occurred because the recommended tire pressures on the door sticker was too
low, and Firestone claimed that it wouldn't have happened if Ford had
recommended a higher tire pressure. That's my recollection anyways.

   Yousuf Khan
Cam Penner - 27 Apr 2004 21:31 GMT
In article <mmzjc.16468$Qcs.5687
@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, news.20.bbbl67
@spamgourmet.com says...
> >> The theory remains just that a theory, the reality has now been
> >> tested.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> low, and Firestone claimed that it wouldn't have happened if Ford had
> recommended a higher tire pressure. That's my recollection anyways.

Which underscores the importance of proper tire pressure.  
Premature catastrophic tire failure can happen upon either
under or over inflation.  It is a dangerous logical fallacy
to assume that just because the Ford Explorer's door
sticker was wrong that all door stickers are wrong.  If you
are in doubt as to what may happen - contact two people.  
One of them being the manufacturer of the car, and the
other being the manufacturer of the tire.  They are the
ones best equipped to know.  Almost everyone else is
speculating.

Signature

Cam
'02 RS

Ken Gilbert - 28 Apr 2004 22:24 GMT
> sticker was wrong that all door stickers are wrong.  If you
> are in doubt as to what may happen - contact two people.  
> One of them being the manufacturer of the car, and the
> other being the manufacturer of the tire.  They are the
> ones best equipped to know.  Almost everyone else is
> speculating.

there is no speculation when one reads the sidewall of the tire to
determine max permissible inflation pressure.

that's the manufacturer's word--what else do you want?

end of story!
Cam Penner - 28 Apr 2004 22:38 GMT
In article
<582a152f.0404281324.4743b7ab@posting.google.com>, ride5000
@ride.ri.net says...
> > sticker was wrong that all door stickers are wrong.  If you
> > are in doubt as to what may happen - contact two people.  
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> end of story!

The sidewall does not take into account the current load of
the car on it.  It is the absolute max pressure of the
tire.  Obviously, the pressure you want to inflate your
tire to depends largely on the weight you have on it.
Signature

Cam
'02 RS

Yousuf Khan - 29 Apr 2004 00:51 GMT
> The sidewall does not take into account the current load of
> the car on it.  It is the absolute max pressure of the
> tire.  Obviously, the pressure you want to inflate your
> tire to depends largely on the weight you have on it.

The more load that the vehicle is expected to carry, the more pressure that
the tire is expected to be inflated to. At the maximum loading limit, you
will also find the maximum tire pressure limit. But if you take the tire to
its maximum pressure limit without taking it to its maximum load limit, it's
not like as if the tire is going to explode due to not being put under
enough load.

It will just have its outside tread edges a little off of the ground at
worst, resulting in overinflation wearing patterns on the tread. But that's
actually what we're after here. We want the tire to pop out a little bit,
before we return it to its normal pressures.

   Yousuf Khan
Edward Hayes - 29 Apr 2004 02:14 GMT
Several years ago Consumers Reports did a real-life-test of bursting
pressure of passenger car tires. As best as I can remember the lowest burst
pressure was over 200 psig. I think that says it all as far as worrying
about 10 or 15 psig over the manufactures recommendation as is no problem.
Ed Hayes
> > The sidewall does not take into account the current load of
> > the car on it.  It is the absolute max pressure of the
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>     Yousuf Khan
CompUser - 29 Apr 2004 10:11 GMT
In article <hGYjc.61511$um3.1178399@bgtnsc04-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
erhayes@worldnet.att.net says...
> Several years ago Consumers Reports did a real-life-test of bursting
> pressure of passenger car tires. As best as I can remember the lowest burst
> pressure was over 200 psig. I think that says it all as far as worrying
> about 10 or 15 psig over the manufactures recommendation as is no problem.

Underinflation is considered "pound for pound"
more hazardous than overinflation.  A bit too low
is much more likely to result in catastrophic
tire failure, than a bit too high.

"Too low" pressure results in excessive flex,
which generates increased temps, that delaminate
plies/belts and tire poppage.
John O - 29 Apr 2004 15:10 GMT
> Several years ago Consumers Reports did a real-life-test of bursting
> pressure of passenger car tires. As best as I can remember the lowest burst
> pressure was over 200 psig. I think that says it all as far as worrying
> about 10 or 15 psig over the manufactures recommendation as is no problem.

Wow, that is high. I wonder what the peak pressure in a tire is when I hit a
pothole while braking on a hot day. No doubt it's less than 200, but tires
do blow from this sort of thing, don't they? Is that because of rim
deformation, or getting cut, or something in addition to the excessive
pressure?

-John O
Yousuf Khan - 29 Apr 2004 18:46 GMT
> Wow, that is high. I wonder what the peak pressure in a tire is when I hit a
> pothole while braking on a hot day. No doubt it's less than 200, but tires
> do blow from this sort of thing, don't they? Is that because of rim
> deformation, or getting cut, or something in addition to the excessive
> pressure?

I've never seen a tire blow from hitting a pothole, under any pressure.
They'll blow if the pothole contains nails or metal spikes of some kind, but
not just a simple pothole.

   Yousuf Khan
John O - 29 Apr 2004 20:42 GMT
> not just a simple pothole.

Who said simple pothole? A relative lost a pair of tires--both right side
tires--when she ran over a hole on I-275. Broke the wheels too.

I have personally see potholes deeper than eight inches, and many years ago
I was in a car where we hit one with the right-rear wheel and the driveshaft
was pulled out of the transmission. Didn't lose a tire though, now that I
think about it. We get big ones up here...

Anyway.

-John O
Yousuf Khan - 30 Apr 2004 04:06 GMT
>> not just a simple pothole.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> and the driveshaft was pulled out of the transmission. Didn't lose a
> tire though, now that I think about it. We get big ones up here...

Well, in any of those circumstances I don't think anything you do with the
tire pressures will help all that much.

   Yousuf Khan
Rick Courtright - 29 Apr 2004 17:52 GMT
> actually what we're after here. We want the tire to pop out a little bit,
> before we return it to its normal pressures.

Yousuf,

Setting aside all the barstool engineering that's been going on here,
how many miles have you put on the tires since you posted your initial
question, and what noticeably positive change have you experienced?

Rick
Yousuf Khan - 29 Apr 2004 18:56 GMT
> > actually what we're after here. We want the tire to pop out a little bit,
> > before we return it to its normal pressures.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> how many miles have you put on the tires since you posted your initial
> question, and what noticeably positive change have you experienced?

So far, I've probably only gotten 500km additional driving (no need to get
on the highway for too long yet). And so far, the additional pressure has
delayed the initial onset of the vibrations from 80 km/h to 95 km/h and the
onset of really severe vibrations from 90 km/h to 105 km/h. I do believe the
onset of vibrations are starting to creep up the speed scale very slowly
(just a gut feeling at this point really, it's hard to tell the difference
day to day). I haven't yet inflated the tire all of the way upto the
sidewall maximum, I'm still a four psi below the maximum on the fronts; I've
hesitated due to the debate in here which made me chicken out initially.

   Yousuf Khan
harv@spininternet.com - 03 May 2004 18:26 GMT
> > > actually what we're after here. We want the tire to pop out a little
> bit,
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>     Yousuf Khan

Your description about vibration starting at about 80kmh (50 mph) sounds
like the problem I've had with two different tires that hit potholes. Once
examined by a competent tire shop, both tires (different time frame for
each) were found to have broken cords in the tread belt. The tires needed to
be replaced, but not before I got suckered into buying a new wheel.

Since the beginning of the thread has long since disappeared. my comments
may or may not be germane to the discussion.
Yousuf Khan - 04 May 2004 19:22 GMT
> Your description about vibration starting at about 80kmh (50 mph)
> sounds like the problem I've had with two different tires that hit
> potholes. Once examined by a competent tire shop, both tires
> (different time frame for each) were found to have broken cords in
> the tread belt. The tires needed to be replaced, but not before I got
> suckered into buying a new wheel.

Yes, it's possible that's what the issue is here too. But I'm going to try
to see if the solutions I'm trying now will fix it up. If it doesn't go away
in a few weeks, then I'll look into replacing the tire(s).

   Yousuf Khan
harv - 05 May 2004 04:35 GMT
Don't screw around, get the tires checked out pronto! Don't wait a few
weeks! Think about the consequences of blowing one or more tires at speed.
> > Your description about vibration starting at about 80kmh (50 mph)
> > sounds like the problem I've had with two different tires that hit
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>     Yousuf Khan
Yousuf Khan - 05 May 2004 07:53 GMT
> Don't screw around, get the tires checked out pronto! Don't wait a few
> weeks! Think about the consequences of blowing one or more tires at
> speed.

Well, of course I've already had it checked out! What do you think prompted
me to ask this question in this newsgroup in the first place? The Subaru
dealer (the guys who checked it out) suggested that I buy new tires,
preferrably *four* new tires! But my feeling is that that's just their
default suggestion. They never said that any belts were broken or anything,
just that the tires were flatspotted (i.e. "out of round"). But flatspotting
is very vague, and not all of them are permanent. I doubt that the dealer
did much of a thorough job of inspecting the tires, otherwise they'd have
more information for me. Right now it just looks like a cash grab.

Anyways, as for your worry about the thing blowing up at speed, it's already
been three weeks since the inspection and they haven't blown up at speed
yet. Nor have they blown up when I filled them to their maximum rated
pressure either.

   Yousuf Khan
Ken Gilbert - 29 Apr 2004 13:33 GMT
> The sidewall does not take into account the current load of
> the car on it.  It is the absolute max pressure of the
> tire.  Obviously, the pressure you want to inflate your
> tire to depends largely on the weight you have on it.

do you work on your own car?

have you checked the tire pressure while the wheel is jacked up off
the ground vs. when the car's weight is on it?

if not, go do so and come back and tell us if the pressure reading is
different.

i'm going to say this one more time: the doorsill pressures can be
realistically taken as the minimum recommended pressures for the
tires.  below these pressures you can dangerously overheat your tires
and cause a subsequent catastrophic failure.  however, for very short
term use (on soft surfaces, on a drag strip, etc) dipping below these
pressures may be tolerated.

the sidewall pressures may be taken as the maximum recommended
pressures.

it is _extraordinarily_ likely when using the doorsill pressures that
during hard cornering manouvers the shoulder of the front tires (which
see the most extreme sideloads and weight transfer) will be rolled
over and the contact patch of the tire distorted.  this is immediately
identified by wear on the shoulder past the tread.  without **any
question whatsoever,** increasing the tire pressure, up to the max
sidewall pressure, will decrease this effect and net an increase in
lateral accleration performance.  the tires will hold their shape
better and much more vehicular control will be available to the
driver.

though this condition will generally result in greater center tread
wear, it will also result in less shoulder wear.  these two wear
conditions must be balanced on a case-by-case basis.  as i said
before, if you don't push the car through corners, then you won't be
rolling on the shoulders and you won't need to increase tire
pressures.

americans drive lincoln town cars and like a cushy, mushy ride.  tire
pressures are ALWAYS a tradeoff between ride quality, tread life,
economy (rolling resistance), and traction.

contrary to what some armchair drivers would have you believe,
increasing the pressure of the tire up to the sidewall pressure does
not result in miserable braking and accelerative performance.  this is
readily verified by GOING OUT AND TRYING IT YOURSELF.

for more information, see page 10 of
http://www.tirerack.com/images/tr_ownersmanual.pdf

l8r
ken
Cam Penner - 29 Apr 2004 17:07 GMT
In article
<582a152f.0404290433.7e56581d@posting.google.com>, ride5000
@ride.ri.net says...
> > The sidewall does not take into account the current load of
> > the car on it.  It is the absolute max pressure of the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> if not, go do so and come back and tell us if the pressure reading is
> different.

of course it will be the same.  You've got the same amount
of air in the same amount of space.

That tirerack document isn't a bad one.  If I may quote it:

(wrt overinflation)
"If your tires are overinflated by 6 psi, they could be
damaged more easily when running over potholes or debris in
the road."

(wrt to raising pressure for competition)
"Tires should be reset to normal inflation pressures when
returned to the street."

Autocross and most other competitions with increased tire
pressure are usually held on surfaces free of debris and
potholes.  American streets certainly don't generally fall
into this category.

Signature

Cam
'02 RS

Ken Gilbert - 30 Apr 2004 01:17 GMT
> Autocross and most other competitions with increased tire
> pressure are usually held on surfaces free of debris and
> potholes.  American streets certainly don't generally fall
> into this category.

i drive like an autocross a good percentage of the time i'm in the
car... enough to warrant a quick response over a soft a.s.

when i have a blow out i'll tell you.  it ain't gonna happen.

ken
 
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