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Car Forum / Subaru Cars / May 2004LL Bean H6 Problems....Any Ideas?
I have a 2001 LL Bean Outback H6 I have been having annoying problems with for about the last couple of years. The dealer has been less than forthcoming with helping with these issues. I don't know if they truly cannot fix these things (if this is the case then their mechanics suck) or they just don't want to take the time to correctly diagnose and fix these things. SOA has been less than helpful also. A brief description of the problems: 1) I had posted this a while back: A recurring problem with the RPM bouncing up (as much as 500 RPM) when I release the gas and have my foot on the brake when slowing to a stop. I can also feel slight engine surges when driving at slow speeds; like the engine is revving itself. The dealer had replaced a "throttle position sensor" and then the ECU was "recalibrated", both not having any effect on this problem. 2) At high RPM (~3000 to 4000 when shifting) there is a clicking/ticking sound and the RPM hang a bit before coming back down. I did just have the "recall clip for the cruise control cable" done. This has had no effect on this problem. Also the "upgraded" Subaru stereo speakers suck. One has already been replace in the driver's door; another is going in the front passenger door. This has been happening for the last couple of years or so. I like the car; but my faith in Subaru and Subaru "reliability" has greatly diminished. I am torn between dealing with this constantly or trading on a 2001 or so BMW 325 xi. Any helpful thoughts/ideas? TIA. > I have a 2001 LL Bean Outback H6 I have been having annoying problems with > for about the last couple of years. The dealer has been less than [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > TIA. According to CR, the H6 Subaru variants are 2x as unreliable as the average car, and J.D. Power's 2004 Initial Quality Study (http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/index.jsp) places Subaru a bit below average. Every domestic make except Ford comes out on top when compared to Subaru. I have a 2001 Subaru Outback Limited Sedan myself that has had caused many minor annoyances, and have no plans to purchase another Subaru in five years or so. It interesting to note that when you look at the vehicle ratings by selecting up any 2001 to 2004 Subaru Outback, many categories come back with "NO DATA" as the response. One can see that without a large amount of responses, the statistics created are useless. Yes, I've had minor annoyances with my Subaru, but when compared to ANYTHING I've driven from the Big Three, they were just that. Minor. I always wondered how the variants between Buick, Olds, Pontiac, and Chevrolet could score vastly different on these surveys when they make essentially the same vehicle. Same series body, engine, transmission, but different nameplate. Just my .02! Back to the original poster now. I have occasionally felt a slight surge when parallel parking sometimes when the power assist kicks in/out for the steering. Nothing real dramatic, since most cars I have driven seemed to have done this occasionally. I can feel the center diff in the trans split the torque from back to front occasionally after I hit highway speeds when the trans shifts to 90%front 10% rear. This comes as a slight surge since the trans is no longer powering the rear wheels as much so the load on the engine decreases. This is only BARELY noticeable, and you really have to look for it. I've heard no clicking when shifting in the 3K to 4K RPM range. As far as the speakers go, how loud are you listening to your music? I have a hearing problem and rarely need to go above volume setting 13 on the stock head unit to jam out. If you need more volume, I would suggest an aftermarket amp and speakers. A lot of times you can blow speakers by having too little power, as from a stock head unit. Once you turn the volume up to a point where the stock unit runs out of power and the outputs start to clip and distort, the nice sine wave going to the speakers turns into a square wave, and all power handling capability of the speaker is out the door. Most of the time this is blamed on "sucky speakers," when the user is requesting more power than the stock head unit can produce. The stock unit does start to run out of headroom at the 12-13 setting in my opinion. Buy an amp and better speakers. > It interesting to note that when you look at the vehicle > ratings by selecting up any 2001 to 2004 Subaru Outback, > many categories come back with "NO DATA" as the > response. One can see that without a large amount of > responses, the statistics created are useless. What vehicle ratings are you referring to? CR has complete data for most Subarus via category. As for JD Power, the 04 IQS doesn't rate by individual categories, and as such "no data" is not applicable here. Response wise, JD Power has more than 51,000 datapoints. You are entering into evidence that a reasonable number of responses have not been acquired, but without any facts behind it. Even if there are no data for, say, fit and finish, that doesn't mean that you can just ignore large amounts of negative feedback for, say, engine unreliability. If you don't know that category "X" is reliable or not, but category "Y" shows problems, are you still going to feel comfortable in purchasing the vehicle? Especially if another vehicle has info in those missing categories, and that data *does* show above average rates of reliability? > > TIA. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > caused many minor annoyances, and have no plans to purchase another Subaru > in five years or so. I'm sorry you've had 'many minor annoyances' with you Subaru. I have owned 3... 2 of which I still have, the latest being an '02 VDC H6 Sedan. I have had virtually no issues with it, though it is not perfect. I think the automatic climate control system stinks... but all three of my Subarus have blown away any domestic vehicle I have ever owned. Additionally, I place no credence on *any* survey, whether it be JD Power, Consumer Reports, etc... You will never convince me that they are not biased or influenced. As another poster mentioned, a smaller sample group is generally statistically inaccurate. John > > > TIA. > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > John Are you basing your opinion of Subaru's reliability on your own experience with three cars? In contrast, CR and JD Power have many thousands of samples. I don't know very much about JD Power, but how is CR biased or influenced? They don't accept any advertising, and purchase all their test cars anonymously. How else can one avoid appearing biased or influenced? > Are you basing your opinion of Subaru's reliability on your own experience > with three cars? In contrast, CR and JD Power have many thousands of > samples. I don't know very much about JD Power, but how is CR biased or > influenced? They don't accept any advertising, and purchase all their test > cars anonymously. How else can one avoid appearing biased or influenced? JD Powers is a hired gun. You contract them to find (not "create") SOME category that your organization, product or service is #1 in.... For a fee, they will collect, analyze, slice, dice and categorize the numbers until one or more areas emerge that show YOUR organization, product or service, as number one. If you read the fine print in the ads and commercials, some of those JD Powers proclamations get real esoteric..."Number One for the past three years (in new model complaints, from first time auto buyers, during the 6th-12th months of ownership)". Note, what they come up with is not untrue. But, it can be so narrow in focus, that it can be practically meaningless. CR, OTOH is a "free-standing" non-profit organization. I've been a CR reader for decades. Some complaints of "ballot stuffing" to influence vehicle ratings by dealership employees has been made, but it would have to be orchestrated at a corporate level practically, to have an influence, I would guess. Steve Steve > Are you basing your opinion of Subaru's reliability on your own experience > with three cars? In contrast, CR and JD Power have many thousands of > samples. I don't know very much about JD Power, but how is CR biased or > influenced? They don't accept any advertising, and purchase all their test > cars anonymously. How else can one avoid appearing biased or influenced? Yes, I am basing my experience on my 3 models... and in following the hundreds of fellow Subaru owners out there. Regardless of how 'morally' straight you believe CR, or any other rating organization to be, the bottom line is that someone, somewhere is going to give in and sell a rating. It's no different than a good cop going bad. It's human nature. Use your own judgement, form your own opinions; I trust no one else to do that for me, nor do I rely upon anyone else to do that for me. John >According to CR, the H6 Subaru variants are 2x as unreliable as the average >car, Might I ask where in CR you found this bit of information? I would like to see it for myself, as I am a subscriber both to the magazine and the online site. Thanks! Duke Actually, I think I confused that with the Baja. 2004 auto issue. In any case, the H6 Outback is in the used car to avoid list. > >According to CR, the H6 Subaru variants are 2x as unreliable as the average > >car, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Thanks! > Duke > Actually, I think I confused that with the Baja. 2004 auto issue. In any > case, the H6 Outback is in the used car to avoid list. It does sound like you are confused. In any case, what issues put the H6 Outback in the 'avoid' list, for whatever it's worth? John > > Actually, I think I confused that with the Baja. 2004 auto issue. In any > > case, the H6 Outback is in the used car to avoid list. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > whatever it's worth? > John *Was* confused. Minor mix-up, the brand as a whole has moderate to severe reliability problems, depending on the model. As for the issue, the issue is with the H6 engine itself. It has a strong tendency to break down or otherwise require repair. > > It does sound like you are confused. > > In any case, what issues put the H6 Outback in the 'avoid' list, for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > is with the H6 engine itself. It has a strong tendency to break down or > otherwise require repair. Again, where are your facts to support this opinion? Moderate to severe reliability problems?? Huh? Where is your proof that there is a 'strong tendency' for the H6 to breakdown or otherwise require repair? I have been following this group for a couple of years, and there have been no discussions along the lines that you are mentioning. John > Again, where are your facts to support this opinion? Moderate to severe > reliability problems?? Huh? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > no discussions along the lines that you are mentioning. > John You are selectively parsing one data source of variables that are not in support of your argument, and disregarding all other data sources that indicate a significant problem in this area. If you throw out all the data that doesn't support your argument, of course your conclusion will be at odds with reality. >> Again, where are your facts to support this opinion? Moderate to severe >> reliability problems?? Huh? >> Where is your proof that there is a 'strong tendency' for the H6 to >> breakdown or otherwise require repair? <snip> > You are selectively parsing one data source of variables that are not in > support of your argument, and disregarding all other data sources that > indicate a significant problem in this area. If you throw out all the data > that doesn't support your argument, of course your conclusion will be at > odds with reality. The question was: where are the data supporting YOUR argument. Florian > The question was: where are the data supporting YOUR argument. > > Florian The data was supplied, he disregarded it as it didn't fit into his preconceived biases. If you haven't already, please feel free to read the thread's parent posts to get up to speed on things. While the sources are already listed, to save you time I'll point you to the 2004 CR Annual Car issue, and the 2004 J.D. Power IQS. The former has into regarding the problems with the H6 engine and Baja, while the latter involves the significant drop in quality of the Subaru line as a whole. Hope this helps. AS for JD Power, I find no, repeat NO data on either Mechanical Dependability or Mechanical Reliability. PLUS, there is NO distinction made between 2.5l vs 3.0l H6. This is using the link YOU supplied several posts above. I suggest we all stop feeding this troll. Carl 1 Lucky Texan >>The question was: where are the data supporting YOUR argument. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > problems with the H6 engine and Baja, while the latter involves the > significant drop in quality of the Subaru line as a whole. Hope this helps.  Signatureto reply, change ( .not) to ( .net) > AS for JD Power, I find no, repeat NO data on either Mechanical > Dependability or Mechanical Reliability. PLUS, there is NO distinction [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Carl > 1 Lucky Texan Carl, I agree with you. I have found no data to support his suppositions. In fact, I did research this last night and found no info to support his claims. On the contrary, I found many diverse sites to reinforce the fact that Subarus are one of the most reliable brands on the market. As for problems with the H6, I found not a single instance (other than a problem with an air mass flow sensor). I can supply all of the links upon request. I do think we are dealing with a troll, and from my aspect, he/she/it is now *history*. John > AS for JD Power, I find no, repeat NO data on either Mechanical > Dependability or Mechanical Reliability. PLUS, there is NO distinction > made between 2.5l vs 3.0l H6. This is using the link YOU supplied > several posts above. > > I suggest we all stop feeding this troll. Look, you are ignoring what people post. The JD Power was only *overall* reliability. The CR reports indicate targeted areas. Please read more carefully. >>> It does sound like you are confused. >>> In any case, what issues put the H6 Outback in the 'avoid' list, for [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > no discussions along the lines that you are mentioning. > John I have been following this newsgroup for a while also, even before I bought the Outback. I have seen no discussions about the above mentioned issues concerning the H6. I have also never seen any discussions about the issues I am experienceing; these seem to be few and far between as well. On the whole, I am very pleased with the overall smoothness and power of the H6. |
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