Car Forum / Subaru Cars / June 2004
Regular gas for the US spec STI
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Philip Procter - 08 May 2004 05:58 GMT With gas prices skyrocketing, is there harm in using regular or medium grade (89octane) gas in an STI for trips where you are careful to stay off the turbo (much)?
Philip
Greg - 08 May 2004 14:41 GMT With knock sensor technology you would probably "get away with it" but the difference in cost over even a long trip is not a lot of money. Say you go 1000 miles and get 25 mpg, that's 40 gallons at 20 cents more per gallon for an additional cost of $8 not even accounting for better gas mileage using higher octane and better performance. Is $8 that big of a cost assuming you can afford to take a trip in the first place?
> With gas prices skyrocketing, is there harm in using regular or medium > grade (89octane) gas in an STI for trips where you are careful to stay > off the turbo (much)? > > Philip Edward Hayes - 08 May 2004 15:50 GMT I think it's foolish to drive using the knock sensor as the constant safety. I would feed it the recommended gas and cut back on my driving miles. ed
> With knock sensor technology you would probably "get away with it" but the > difference in cost over even a long trip is not a lot of money. Say you go [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > > > Philip Carl 1 Lucky Texan - 08 May 2004 22:21 GMT Or switch to coffee instead of lattes and buy a water filter and lose the bottled water. That will pay for your premium gas.
Carl 1 Lucky Texan
> I think it's foolish to drive using the knock sensor as the constant safety. > I would feed it the recommended gas and cut back on my driving miles. ed [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >>> >>>Philip
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Greg - 10 May 2004 00:27 GMT I was thinking give up fries with the Famous Star and switch to a medium Coke at each fill up, but the thought is the same. I had connections with a gas station at one time and it's amazing how people react when the gas prices go up.
> Or switch to coffee instead of lattes and buy a water filter and lose > the bottled water. That will pay for your premium gas. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >>> > >>>Philip Carl 1 Lucky Texan - 10 May 2004 04:30 GMT I worked in an oil-related field for 12 years ('logging' trucks for those in the know). I will never complain about the price of oil.
Carl 1 Lucky Texan (Please don't tell my Momma I work in the oil patch. She still thinks I'm the piano player at the whorehouse.)
> I was thinking give up fries with the Famous Star and switch to a medium > Coke at each fill up, but the thought is the same. I had connections with a [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >>>>> >>>>>Philip
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Bryan Lee - 08 May 2004 16:16 GMT That's a very bad ideal. You can damage your motor. I have a '04 WRX. If you check your manual it says wrx must run a min of 91 octane and the STI must run a min of 93. On all the WRX(sti) site people have tried to use cheap gas in our WRX they all report a lose of on min 2 mpg and a lose in power. Also the knock sensor only hears a knock after it happens. So you will still damage the motor. I live out in Cali and we only have 91 octane gas I add octane booster to every tank full just to give it that extra margin. Turbo motors are very sensitive to quality of gas since they force hot air into the motor they need help to control knock under boost. If you use cheap gas all it can do is reduce timming and try to cope. You are only talking a differance $1.50 a tank full(15g tank) . Is your car not worth an extra $1.50 a tank. Depending on how you drive you should be getting around 22 +mpg on the highway anyway. I also have a '64 Pontiac Grand Prix that has a 389 w/tri-power (three 2bbl carbs) that the manul says needs a min of 98 octane and recomends 100. I would drive to the compton air and fill up with low lead 100 octane air fuel. At about $2.80 a gal for a 25 gal tank I would spend about $70 every fill up. I was my daily driver that got about maybe 10 mpg and would have to fill up every week. Finaly the EPA cracked down and I could not get the 100 octance. So after have the car over 2yrs and putting over 20k original(91k mi when I bought it now reading a little over 110k). I pulled the motor and built it for unleaded and lower octane(91 oct and $5 a bottle oct booster). I went through all that trouble because when I bought that car I know what it needed. So give your car what it need. Isnt you car worth $1.50 a tank full?
> With gas prices skyrocketing, is there harm in using regular or medium > grade (89octane) gas in an STI for trips where you are careful to stay > off the turbo (much)? > > Philip John Emdall - 10 May 2004 02:23 GMT It is my understanding that 100 octane unleaded (not avgas) is still available to the public at a number of pumps in the so cal area. The only caveat is they may not want to pump it directly into your street car so bring a couple of 5 gal cans.
http://stevesnovasite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=26496#post26496
> That's a very bad ideal. You can damage your motor. I have a '04 WRX. If > you check your manual it says wrx must run a min of 91 octane and the STI [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > > > Philip Carl 1 Lucky Texan - 10 May 2004 04:32 GMT You could always investigate adding 1-2 gallons of toluene at each fillup.
Carl 1 Lucky Texan
> It is my understanding that 100 octane unleaded > (not avgas) is still available to the public at a [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >>> >>>Philip
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CompUser - 10 May 2004 10:36 GMT In article <090520041823378679% clamstrip@angelfire.com>, clamstrip@angelfire.com says...
> It is my understanding that 100 octane unleaded > (not avgas) is still available to the public at a > number of pumps in the so cal area. The only > caveat is they may not want to pump it directly > into your street car so bring a couple of 5 gal cans. That's not the only caveat.
Avgas is *leaded*, so plan on replacing your cats after a few tanks, too.
Steve
The_Incubator - 08 May 2004 20:51 GMT You'll probably end up getting worse gas mileage... I've found this to be the case with cars that recommend higher octane fuel.
So you might hurt your engine without any savings to show for it.
Nick
> With gas prices skyrocketing, is there harm in using regular or medium > grade (89octane) gas in an STI for trips where you are careful to stay > off the turbo (much)? > > Philip Yousuf Khan - 09 May 2004 00:33 GMT > With gas prices skyrocketing, is there harm in using regular or medium > grade (89octane) gas in an STI for trips where you are careful to stay > off the turbo (much)? The knock sensor will probably prevent any major damage from happening to your engine, but you will probably get *worse* gas mileage. The knock sensor is an inherantly passive device, meaning that it waits for a ping to actually happen before cranking back the timings, it doesn't proactively try to adjust the timings. It'll keep your engine safe, but it won't make it efficient.
Yousuf Khan
The Vodkinator - 10 May 2004 20:08 GMT Okay, I'll ask the obvious question: why did you spend $30K+ on a performance car like the STi if you don't want to spend the coin on premium gas to protect your car's engine? The answer to your question is pretty simple: use premium gas; don't screw around to save yourself a buck here and there.
Jen
:: killing people and burning down trees :: http://www.stinkykitty.com
> With gas prices skyrocketing, is there harm in using regular or medium > grade (89octane) gas in an STI for trips where you are careful to stay > off the turbo (much)? > > Philip CompUser - 11 May 2004 02:14 GMT > > With gas prices skyrocketing, is there harm in using regular or medium > > grade (89octane) gas in an STI for trips where you are careful to stay > > off the turbo (much)? Google "bore wash timing pinging" and decide for yourself if this is a risk you *really* want to take, to save a few bucks on each fill up.
Steve
Dan - 14 Jun 2004 23:48 GMT Ok, let me explain about forced induction (turbo or supercharging) and how it relates to octane ratings. First of all the octane rating of gas is it's resistance to what's called detonation. Higher rating=more resistance=better burn When you're running any forced induction application this becomes critical in that you start running a lot more air into the engine. Remember, all that a turbo does is force more air into your engine so that there is more air to burn. Now if you run any gas with too low of an octane rating you are basically now running too lean on the engine. It's just as if the engine wasn't getting enough fuel. Hence detonation. Very bad juju. Too much air+not enough/wrong fuel=BOOM! Forget knocking, we're talking about destroying your pistons, and blowing the head on the motor. Trust me, this information came very painfully to me.
> With gas prices skyrocketing, is there harm in using regular or medium > grade (89octane) gas in an STI for trips where you are careful to stay > off the turbo (much)? > > Philip Edward Hayes - 14 Jun 2004 23:52 GMT Right on Don: I've seen connecting rods outside the cylinder blocks bent at right angles. Why would anyone spend 30,000 bucks and quibble about 5 bucks more a week is beyond comprehension.
> Ok, let me explain about forced induction (turbo or supercharging) and > how it relates to octane ratings. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > > > Philip Jim Stewart - 15 Jun 2004 00:19 GMT > Right on Don: I've seen connecting rods outside the cylinder blocks bent at > right angles. Why would anyone spend 30,000 bucks and quibble about 5 bucks > more a week is beyond comprehension. Want to hear a good one? My wife and I test-drove 2 wrx's at a local dealership. The first one drive like a top but was the wrong color. The second one was the right color, but in the showroom. They took it out and it ran terrible. We left, not buying the car. They called back and said it had been filled with regular. They filled it with premium and give it to a saleslady to drive around. We came back a couple days later, test-drove it and bought it.
Damn near lost a $23,000 sale for a 1/4 tank of regular gas.
>>Ok, let me explain about forced induction (turbo or supercharging) and >>how it relates to octane ratings. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >>> >>>Philip Dan Duncan - 16 Jun 2004 00:25 GMT > They called back and said it had been filled with > regular. They filled it with premium and give it > to a saleslady to drive around. We came back a couple > days later, test-drove it and bought it. You might want to get that story in writing in case you have a warranty issue down the road.
-DanD
 Signature # Dan Duncan (kd4igw) dand@pcisys.net http://pcisys.net/~dand # In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to Liberty. # -Thomas Jefferson
Chris Phillipo - 15 Jun 2004 01:51 GMT > Subject: Re: Regular gas for the US spec STI > From: Dan <grn240sx_1999@yahoo.com> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > knocking, we're talking about destroying your pistons, and blowing the > head on the motor. Trust me, this information came very painfully to me. The shortened version is; too low an octane with highly compressed air = detonation while your piston is on the way up the cylinder. Snap, crackle, pop!
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Mark Santa Ana - 15 Jun 2004 16:08 GMT > The shortened version is; too low an octane with highly compressed air = > detonation while your piston is on the way up the cylinder. Snap, > crackle, pop! I thought that was pre-ignition.
S - 15 Jun 2004 19:19 GMT Hi Mark, All!
>I thought that was pre-ignition. Not quite, but same results. Detonation is where the air/fuel charge basically explodes instead of burning with a nice even flame-front pattern. It's caused by too lean of a mixture, or poor fuel (lo octane or other). Pre-ignition is where you have a hot spot in the combustion chamber that ignites the mix prematurely, causing excessive pressure in the combustion chamber. That is caused by too hot of a spark-plug, glowing hot carbon deposits on piston crown or combustion chamber, etc. They _are_ closely related, however, Detonation frequently leads to pre-ignition. It's a vicious cycle that can destroy an engine in a few cycles.
ByeBye! S.
Steve Jernigan KG0MB Laboratory Manager Microelectronics Research University of Colorado (719) 262-3101
Mark Santa Ana - 16 Jun 2004 02:37 GMT > Hi Mark, All! > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > University of Colorado > (719) 262-3101 Thanks for clearing that up, I have a hard time distinguishing between the two. Is there a more general way to distinguish between them? I think I've read that running with too much ignition retard can also cause pre-ignition by heating the exhaust valves too much. The exhaust valves are hit with the flame front and cannot dissipate the excess heat in time for the compression cycle.
CompUser - 16 Jun 2004 12:32 GMT In article <supermarkusremoveme- BE21B1.18372115062004@netnews.comcast.net>,
> Thanks for clearing that up, I have a hard time distinguishing between > the two. Is there a more general way to distinguish between them? > I think I've read that running with too much ignition retard can also > cause pre-ignition by heating the exhaust valves too much. The exhaust > valves are hit with the flame front and cannot dissipate the excess heat > in time for the compression cycle. Pinging or detonation refers to simultaneous, or closely following, ignition from a residual heat source in the chamber AFTER the ignition spark. The shock wave generated by the collision of the burning wave fronts creates the "ping" and does the damage. Some degree of detonation can be tolerated without damage, tho it can damage pistons etc.
Preignition refers to ignition prior to the ignition spark, while the piston is still being driven down the cylinder in the compression cycle. Earlier preignition is more destructive than later, closer-to-the-ignition spark, preignition, as the piston is being mechanically forced down the cylinder for a longer portion of the compression stroke, while the burning fuel- air charge is trying to expand. It is considered *much* more destructive than pinging, with the occurrence of even a single incidence of detonation being enough to destroy the engine.
Steve
y_p_w - 17 Jun 2004 00:31 GMT > In article <supermarkusremoveme- > BE21B1.18372115062004@netnews.comcast.net>, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > tolerated without damage, tho it can damage > pistons etc. I'll also add part of the reason is because the explosion from the ignition spark increases the pressure in the entire chamber - even in parts where the flame hasn't reached.
> Preignition refers to ignition prior to the > ignition spark, while the piston is still being [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > occurrence of even a single incidence of > detonation being enough to destroy the engine. From what I understand, it takes some serious neglect for there to be preignition. There would have to be some awfully heavy carbon deposits before it would reach that point.
You guys should have read a thread in the Toyota group a few years back. I mixed up preignition and detonation, and there was an ensuing argument over whether or not "predetonation" was a correct term. One guy was telling me no way, and it devolved into a discussion about English syntax. My point was that some mechanics and even a well known tuner used the slightly bastardized word "predetonation".
CompUser - 15 Jun 2004 20:33 GMT In article <supermarkusremoveme- C5026A.08083215062004@netnews.comcast.net>, supermarkusremoveme@excite.com says...
> > The shortened version is; too low an octane with highly compressed air = > > detonation while your piston is on the way up the cylinder. Snap, > > crackle, pop! > > I thought that was pre-ignition. It is.
Steve
Chris Phillipo - 16 Jun 2004 00:05 GMT In article <supermarkusremoveme-C5026A.08083215062004 @netnews.comcast.net>, supermarkusremoveme@excite.com says...
> > The shortened version is; too low an octane with highly compressed air = > > detonation while your piston is on the way up the cylinder. Snap, > > crackle, pop! > > I thought that was pre-ignition. No, pre-iginition is caused by the metal surfaces in the ignition chamber being so hot they ignite the fuel/air mix without a spark. They both screw your engine in about the same way by burning fuel before it is intended to ignite.
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Ken Gilbert - 16 Jun 2004 00:53 GMT [devil's advocate]
...he COULD fit an aquamist (or similar) water injection setup and then fill with 87 octane all day...
[/devil's advocate]
ken
Florian Feuser /FFF/ - 16 Jun 2004 02:30 GMT > [devil's advocate] > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > ken ah, why don't people top off with evian after a tankful of 87? OK, H2O and gas don't mix, but it's not really that simple.
florian
Dan - 16 Jun 2004 04:11 GMT or he could just run with the gas that you're supposed to run on any turbocharged car and not worry about it.
>>[devil's advocate] >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > florian
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