Car Forum / Subaru Cars / July 2004
Using 5w20 Oil
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bg - 08 Jun 2004 16:03 GMT Subaru normally recommends using 5w30 oil. See any objections in trying 5w20...for possibly better fuel milage?
TIA...bgin
y_p_w - 08 Jun 2004 16:16 GMT > Subaru normally recommends using 5w30 oil. See any objections in trying > 5w20...for possibly better fuel milage? > > TIA...bgin Don't do it. I'd guess a Subaru would likely survive through the warranty period with a 5W-20 oil, but what would be the long-term consequences?
I've heard that Mobil 1 5W-30 is pretty close to being a 5W-20 oil.
Jim Stewart - 08 Jun 2004 17:25 GMT >> Subaru normally recommends using 5w30 oil. See any objections in trying >> 5w20...for possibly better fuel milage? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I've heard that Mobil 1 5W-30 is pretty close to being a 5W-20 oil. I agree. I run Mobil 1 10W-30 because it significantly reduces valve clatter on startup.
Rockin Ronnie - 08 Jun 2004 23:07 GMT > Subaru normally recommends using 5w30 oil. See any objections in trying > 5w20...for possibly better fuel milage? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.699 / Virus Database: 456 - Release Date: 6/4/2004 I would go with the manufacturer's recommendations. However I run 5W-20 in a Ford Focus ZX-3 and have noticed good fuel economy. BTW Ford (of America) recommends 5W-20 for it's ZTEC engines.
name - 09 Jun 2004 03:12 GMT > Subaru normally recommends using 5w30 oil. See any objections in trying > 5w20...for possibly better fuel milage? Subarus run lower coolant temperatures, so 5w20 might operate thicker than 5w30 in another car. You could always do an experiment, and tell us the results.
Jack - 09 Jun 2004 23:51 GMT Why would you do this. In 5w30 the 5 refers to viscosity of the oil at cold temperatures (yes, I know that is not precisely true, but close enough for the arguement) while the 30 refers to viscosity at high tempuratures. Before I would go with a 5w20, I would investigate a 0w30. That might actually be of more benefit, but only slight.
> > Subaru normally recommends using 5w30 oil. See any objections in trying > > 5w20...for possibly better fuel milage? > > Subarus run lower coolant temperatures, so 5w20 might operate thicker > than 5w30 in another car. You could always do an experiment, and tell > us the results. al gu - 09 Jun 2004 18:06 GMT > Subaru normally recommends using 5w30 oil. See any objections in trying > 5w20...for possibly better fuel milage? > > TIA...bgin It will do nothing for fuel milage it will protect your bearings less though
Edward Hayes - 09 Jun 2004 18:19 GMT Dumb idea to even consider it with present engine replacement/rebuilding cost
> > Subaru normally recommends using 5w30 oil. See any objections in trying > > 5w20...for possibly better fuel milage? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It will do nothing for fuel milage > it will protect your bearings less though y_p_w - 09 Jun 2004 21:44 GMT > > Subaru normally recommends using 5w30 oil. See any objections in trying > > 5w20...for possibly better fuel milage? > > > > TIA...bgin > > > It will do nothing for fuel milage I disagree. Ford, Mazda, and Honda seem to believe that 5W-20 improves fuel economy. Ford even has a list of 5W-20 approved vehicles going back to before they started using it.
> it will protect your bearings less though That I do agree with. There seem to be the macho Ford F-150 truck owners who refuse to use the recommended 5W-20 oil.
My biggest problem would be going counter to the manufacturer's recommendations. Ford and Honda have extensively tested their vehicles for use with 5W-20 oil and Subaru hasn't (or hasn't made it public).
Jkpoulos7 - 09 Jun 2004 22:35 GMT >My biggest problem would be going counter to the manufacturer's >recommendations. Ford and Honda have extensively tested their >vehicles for use with 5W-20 oil and Subaru hasn't (or hasn't made >it public). Subaru "prefers" 5w30 but if you read the manual 20w50 is preferred for towing and in 100F plus temps. I imagine that using any of the listed oils at a given temp range will not result in damage. With 10w30 my 2.5 04 OBW is quieter and mpg is the same. Since 10w30 is listed as suitable for NJ temps in spring in summer I'm not worried about engine damage especially when using syn blend oil.
Rick Courtright - 10 Jun 2004 05:23 GMT > My biggest problem would be going counter to the manufacturer's > recommendations. Ford and Honda have extensively tested their > vehicles for use with 5W-20 oil and Subaru hasn't (or hasn't made > it public). Agreed, and I'd be especially careful during the warranty period. And, regardless of what Ford, Mazda or Honda recommend, we're talking Subaru. IF (and that's ONLY if) one has an oil-related warranty problem, telling the Subaru dealer "Well, my Honda book says it's ok" isn't likely to get one too far.
Since I live in a warm climate--SoCal near the desert--the cold starting part of the equation's not as important to me as hi-temp protection. I've seen virtually no difference between 10W-30 and 10W-40 or 15W-40 as to fuel economy, but a major difference in oil pressure, which makes me a bit nervous. So I doubt any fuel economy increase from dropping to a 20 weight would be significant vis a vis the risk of engine wear if it's not mfr approved. Naturally YMMV depending on climate and other factors.
Rick
y_p_w - 10 Jun 2004 22:50 GMT >>My biggest problem would be going counter to the manufacturer's >>recommendations. Ford and Honda have extensively tested their [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > 20 weight would be significant vis a vis the risk of engine wear if it's > not mfr approved. Naturally YMMV depending on climate and other factors. As an aside, I recall that Mobil 1 first came out in a 5W-20 weight. Mobil's rationale was that it could provide protection that was at least equivalent to the 10W-30 and 10W-40 motor oils available in the early 80's. The alleged benefits were better fuel economy as well as better cold starts.
Of course Mobil had a hard time convincing people to run counter to the manufacturers' recommendations. They used to recommend 1 year or 25K mile oil changes (with regular filter changes) in addition to the oddball (at the time) 5W-20 oil weight.
Rick Courtright - 11 Jun 2004 01:35 GMT > Of course Mobil had a hard time convincing people to run counter to > the manufacturers' recommendations. They used to recommend 1 year > or 25K mile oil changes (with regular filter changes) in addition IIRC a major reason for consumer reticence lay in the fact manufacturers made it pretty clear if you didn't follow their recommendations, they did they not have to (nor would they) honor warranty claims. Lessee, now: I use the wrong weight oil in my engine, the transmission goes out and it's not covered? It would be a hard sell to get ME to change...
Rick
y_p_w - 11 Jun 2004 07:21 GMT >>Of course Mobil had a hard time convincing people to run counter to >>the manufacturers' recommendations. They used to recommend 1 year [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > now: I use the wrong weight oil in my engine, the transmission goes out > and it's not covered? It would be a hard sell to get ME to change... Well - **technically and legally** the responsibility for proving that improper maintenance led to a failure lies with the manufacturer. Practically speaking, the dealer/manufacturer might not go through the trouble if they think they have the owner with his pants down (i.e. "you used what?").
From what I understand about the early Mobil 1 was that they had a host of problems with seals leaking, but otherwise cars ran extremely well. I remember an '84 Mercedes-Benz approved oils list, and Mobil 1 5W-20 was on it, but only for colder ambient temps.
Mike - 09 Jun 2004 18:30 GMT I asked SOA via e-mail this question a few months ago. Their reply was the generic "refer to you owners manual" for recommended oil viscosity. In other words "don't do it."
Mike
> Subaru normally recommends using 5w30 oil. See any objections in trying > 5w20...for possibly better fuel milage? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.699 / Virus Database: 456 - Release Date: 6/4/2004 Carl 1 Lucky Texan - 09 Jun 2004 23:18 GMT I think the CAFE rules have created a somewhat artificial impetus for auto monufacturers to recommend extremely low viscosity oils to get an xtra .5 mpg during govt. testing. I've heard (anyone confirm?) that many models sold overseas with identical drivtrains to the US versions have manuals listing higher weight oils.
Carl 1 Lucky Texan
> I asked SOA via e-mail this question a few months ago. Their reply was > the generic "refer to you owners manual" for recommended oil [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >>Version: 6.0.699 / Virus Database: 456 - Release Date: 6/4/2004
 Signature to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)
oothlagre - 10 Jun 2004 00:50 GMT It would depend on the climate you live in. If it doesn't get really hot for long periods in the summer, then it should be fine.
I run 5-30 in the winter and 10-40 in the summer. Thinner oil in the winter will help it start easier and the oil is thinner when starting so you get better lubrication. A thicker oil in the summer will be thicker at higher temperatures and will give better lubrication.
Subaru engines have a lower operating temperatures than some. I am especially amazed at how well mine dissipates heat with such a puny radiator. I had an old AMC 360 V8 in my old Jeep that ran 240 most of the time. I didn't run anything thinner than 10w40 in that beast. In the summer I ran 20w50.
Henry
As for fuel economy, I seriously doubt you can measure the difference between 5w30 and 5w20.
> Subaru normally recommends using 5w30 oil. See any objections in trying > 5w20...for possibly better fuel milage? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.699 / Virus Database: 456 - Release Date: 6/4/2004 Mike - 13 Jun 2004 04:28 GMT Funny, at least one manufacturer I know does not recommend 10W-40. Years ago a major oil company had a bad lot of 10W-40 get out, seems it went to something like 10W-20 real quick & killed a few engines. 5W-30 in the winter & 10W-30 in the summer for me.
Oh, also a few years back GM had a recall on cars to have the oil changed. Seems they left the factory with 10W-30 & the recall was to change them to 5W-30 because that's what they ran for the EPA tests.
Mike '01 OBW
> It would depend on the climate you live in. If it doesn't get really hot for > long periods in the summer, then it should be fine. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.699 / Virus Database: 456 - Release Date: 6/4/2004 y_p_w - 17 Jun 2004 20:43 GMT > Funny, at least one manufacturer I know does not recommend 10W-40. > Years ago a major oil company had a bad lot of 10W-40 get out, seems > it went to something like 10W-20 real quick & killed a few engines. > 5W-30 in the winter & 10W-30 in the summer for me. I can't think of any current manufacturer that says conventional 10W-40 is OK for "standard" use in certain climates, except Subaru. The vast majority of US owner's manuals specify 5W-30 or 10W-30 as the preferred weight. 5W-20 is the preferred weight for most recent Honda/Ford/Madza engines. Some German cars come with recommendations for 5W-40 or 0W-40 synthetics, but those come with a specific oil (Mobil 1, etc) in mind.
My guess is that most engines can tolerate a wide range of oil weights without any kind of major catastrophe occuring for a long time. It's been established that virtually identical engines can come with different recommendations in the US compared to Europe or Asia. Whether or not 5W-20 oils can reduce the long- term life of engines hasn't been established. However - I have heard reports that oil analyses from Fords/Hondas running 5W-20 oil have shown metal wear rates similar to running 5W-30/10W-30.
> Oh, also a few years back GM had a recall on cars to have the oil > changed. Seems they left the factory with 10W-30 & the recall was to > change them to 5W-30 because that's what they ran for the EPA tests. Seems about right. Never underestimate the power of a recall campaign to show that the automaker "cares".
BG - 11 Jul 2004 15:22 GMT Well, I went ahead and put Motorcraft 5w20 Premium Synthetic Blend motor oil into my '00 OBW and to thicken it a bit added 1qt. of Mobil 1 T&SUV 5w40. After 1298 miles with this mix I got no change in gas mileage. Acceleration seems to be better. Once the car is up to temperature, she sounds the same...maybe even a little quieter, but thats really a subjective motion. The infamous Subaru cold start ticking is still there, no better or worse sounding, but takes longer to dissipate which bothered me. So yesterday I drained a quart out and added Chevron Supreme 10w30 to try and thicken it a bit more. Seems to have worked, the cold start ticking is still there but dissipates a whole lot sooner.
bgin
Tony Hwang - 12 Jul 2004 00:44 GMT > Well, I went ahead and put Motorcraft 5w20 Premium Synthetic Blend > motor oil into my '00 OBW and to thicken it a bit added 1qt. of Mobil [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > bgin Hi, As far as I know mixing two different oil brand, weight is considerd not a good idea. If I were you, I wouldn't do that. Tony
Byron - 12 Jul 2004 01:32 GMT >> Well, I went ahead and put Motorcraft 5w20 Premium Synthetic Blend >> motor oil into my '00 OBW and to thicken it a bit added 1qt. of Mobil [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > not a good idea. If I were you, I wouldn't do that. > Tony As long as both kinds of oil meet or beat Subaru's requirement of viscosity and API specification for spark-ignition engines I'm pretty sure you'll be just fine. My owners manual specifically says I could use different brands simultaneously, as long as they meet the specs. My '02 WRX requires SH or newer - check your owners manual for your Outback if you want more piece of mind. Mine prefers 5w-30 for general use, but allows the use of 10w30 and 10w40. It also says that under severe duty, SAE30, SAE40, 10w50, 20w40, or 20w50 can be used to suit the load and expected temperatures. The latest designation is SL. If the car requires SH, you can use any combination of SH(1994), SJ(1998), or SL(2001?) oils. You just couldn't use an oil that only met an older designation like SG(1987) I've always used the recommended oil. I moved from Boston, MA to Phoenix, AZ nearly a month ago (it's 110F today) and am switching from fossil oil to Mobil1, still in the 5w30 weight.
- Byron
Tony Hwang - 12 Jul 2004 23:46 GMT >>> Well, I went ahead and put Motorcraft 5w20 Premium Synthetic Blend >>> motor oil into my '00 OBW and to thicken it a bit added 1qt. of Mobil [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > - Byron Hi, I think you're misinformed. No mixing! period. Tony
Byron - 13 Jul 2004 00:50 GMT > Hi, > I think you're misinformed. No mixing! period. > Tony You might want to tell the engineers at Subaru that they are also wrong, because my info came right from my owners manual (page 11-13). A mechanic I know who has built hundreds of high performance engines also agrees with them and me - meet or beat the API service rating, and keep the viscosity rating at one of Subaru's recommended levels for the load and temperature range your car will see.
Mobil1 oil also states that it can be freely mixed in any proportions with conventional oil.
Where does your information come from? Can you post a link? Or explain why you think Subaru is wrong?
y_p_w - 13 Jul 2004 03:31 GMT >> Hi, >> I think you're misinformed. No mixing! period. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Where does your information come from? Can you post a link? Or explain > why you think Subaru is wrong? I remember an NG thread about mixing oils. Someone with excellent credentials (oil/fuel additive developer and engine lab director at Exxon) claimed that some detergent additives mixed together could cause (maybe a 50/50 mix) of two different 5W-30 oils to thicken out to a 15W-40. I don't think this is that big a deal if you're changing oil.
I think now there's probably far more similarities than differences in additive packages these days.
Henry Paul - 13 Jul 2004 05:02 GMT So then if you use 2 different weights from the same brand it should work just fine.
 Signature Henry Paul
> >> Hi, > >> I think you're misinformed. No mixing! period. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > I think now there's probably far more similarities than differences > in additive packages these days. y_p_w - 13 Jul 2004 05:36 GMT > So then if you use 2 different weights from the same brand it should work > just fine. Perhaps. I once called the Mobil 800 number and asked if it was OK to mix equal part of Mobil 1 0W-30 and 5W-30. It was what I had on hand, and the answer was yes.
However, motor oil makers modify their base oil and additive packages all the time. Castrol states just that on their label. I've seen the same brand/weight with noticeable color/odor differences; I bought them at the same time. I couldn't imagine a radical change in additive package that would lead to thickening though. I'd think an oil maker would test for compatibility with their previous formulations.
I found the original post I referred to:
<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=36746FC7.56E5%40mail.eclipse.net&output=gplain>
BoB - 13 Jul 2004 02:37 GMT >>> Well, I went ahead and put Motorcraft 5w20 Premium Synthetic Blend >>> motor oil into my '00 OBW and to thicken it a bit added 1qt. of Mobil [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > >- Byron Hi Byron,
I'm moving from TN to Phoenix in two weeks and am curious if dealers there recommend a particular weight for that hot climate. I was going to change oil in my ForesterS this week but decided to wait and introduce myself to a Phoenix dealer, since I will be trailer towing the Forester behind the rental truck. I only find one Phoenix dealer on My.Subaru.com, but they may have to 'special qualify' or 'pay' to get a listing. My dealer here isn't listed either but one 30 miles down the freeway is.
We'll be house shopping in Sun City West if we survive packing and loading. :-)
BoB
Don - 12 Jul 2004 04:55 GMT > > Well, I went ahead and put Motorcraft 5w20 Premium Synthetic Blend > > motor oil into my '00 OBW and to thicken it a bit added 1qt. of Mobil [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > not a good idea. If I were you, I wouldn't do that. > Tony If I can trust my dealer he said NOT to use anything heavier than 10W30 because you don't get the proper lubrication. I.e., switching to 90W gear lube certainly wouldn't improve things, eh? ;-) Username munged by FixNews
Henry Paul - 12 Jul 2004 05:16 GMT Wow that is interesting since the difference between 10w30 and 10w40 is small in terms of viscosity.
What car do you have? My Impreza manual says I can run 20w50 if I want, but 5w30 will yield best fuel economy.
 Signature Henry Paul
> > > Well, I went ahead and put Motorcraft 5w20 Premium Synthetic Blend > > > motor oil into my '00 OBW and to thicken it a bit added 1qt. of Mobil [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- Don - 12 Jul 2004 22:34 GMT Wouldn't the difference between 10W30 and 10W40 be 25% difference? That's quite a bit. And for the worst temperature condition.
The higher number represents the viscosity at cold temperatures when the engine need lubrication to help prevent piston slap, etc.
Don't believe me, check http://www.ixion.org.uk/faq/oil.html
> Wow that is interesting since the difference between 10w30 and 10w40 is > small in terms of viscosity. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > to 90W gear lube certainly wouldn't improve things, eh? ;-) > > Username munged by FixNews Username munged by FixNews
Henry Paul - 12 Jul 2004 22:59 GMT I ran 20w50 all the time when I lived in Oregon because of the moderate climate. It's too cold here in the winter to run that thick. Engine won't even turn over without a block heater.
It does get pretty hot here in the summer so I run a thicker oil then because it will stay thicker under higher temps.
 Signature Henry Paul
> Wouldn't the difference between 10W30 and 10W40 be 25% difference? > That's quite a bit. And for the worst temperature condition. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- y_p_w - 13 Jul 2004 03:56 GMT > Wouldn't the difference between 10W30 and 10W40 be 25% difference? > That's quite a bit. And for the worst temperature condition. Not really. The number 30/40/50/etc represents a range of viscosity that meets the requirement. A 10W-30 oil could be right at the upper limit of just under 12.5 cSt at 100°C. A 10W-40 could be right at the lower limit of 12.5. These probably aren't typical.
<http://www.finalube.com/reference_material/SAE_Viscosity_Grades_For_Engine_Oils.htm>
These are the viscosities (in cSt at 100°C) for Chevron Supreme motor oil (from their datasheet):
5W-20: 8.0 5W-30: 10.8 10W-30: 10.8 10W-40: 14.8 20W-50: 19.0 30 wt: 10.3 40 wt: 14.0
I also found it interesting that their 30 wt oil is thinner at 40°C (104°F) than their 10W-40 or 20W-50. If you're running it in a desert climate, it sounds like 30 wt could be a better choice than 10W-30 for cold engine starts.
Besides that - I don't think that viscosity can really be quantified as X% thicker. It's just a number that might not be linear with different scales.
> The higher number represents the viscosity at cold temperatures > when the engine need lubrication to help prevent piston slap, etc. > > Don't believe me, check http://www.ixion.org.uk/faq/oil.html But it's only a range. Not all 10W-30 motor oils are of the same thickness.
Henry Paul - 13 Jul 2004 05:07 GMT But also take into consideration that a "cold start" in a hot climate is at a warmer temp than a cold start in a moderate or colder climate.
 Signature Henry Paul
> > Wouldn't the difference between 10W30 and 10W40 be 25% difference? > > That's quite a bit. And for the worst temperature condition. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > limit of just under 12.5 cSt at 100?C. A 10W-40 could be right at > the lower limit of 12.5. These probably aren't typical. <http://www.finalube.com/reference_material/SAE_Viscosity_Grades_For_Engine_ Oils.htm>
> These are the viscosities (in cSt at 100?C) for Chevron Supreme motor > oil (from their datasheet): [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > But it's only a range. Not all 10W-30 motor oils are of the > same thickness. y_p_w - 13 Jul 2004 05:28 GMT > But also take into consideration that a "cold start" in a hot climate is at > a warmer temp than a cold start in a moderate or colder climate. Yes. I only used that example because the datasheets I had listed viscosity at 40°C (a hot climate) and 100°C (near operating temps). I still found it odd that 30 wt oil would be thinner at 40°C than their 10W-30.
I also have the feeling that what's currently called a "straight weight" oil might have been considered a multiweight oil in the past. The manufacturing process for motor oil is likely far different than even a decade ago.
Henry Paul - 13 Jul 2004 07:21 GMT That's true. My dad keeps telling me those stories, "I remember when there was only one type of oil you could buy back before all the multiweights were available......."
My dad was stationed in the army in Alaska and he also told me stories about motor oil in the winter time up there. :)
 Signature Henry Paul
> > But also take into consideration that a "cold start" in a hot climate is at > > a warmer temp than a cold start in a moderate or colder climate. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > manufacturing process for motor oil is likely far different than even > a decade ago. DCM - 17 Jul 2004 17:56 GMT > The number 30/40/50/etc represents a range of viscosity Don't know if this moves the thread forward, but here goes. Viscosity is a measurement of what we generally conceive as the thickness of a fluid. Pudding has a much higher viscosity than beer. Jello is a pretty normal fluid when we're taling about viscosity. When the Jello is just made, it's hot and thin. After time in the 'fridge, it gets rubbery thick.
Liquid viscosities change because they are affected by temperature and pressure. The molecules have more or less energy and pack less or more tightly as the temperature goes up. .... That's in liquids which obey the rules of Thermodynamics Newton put together in the 18th century.
NON-Newtonian fluids DON'T FOLLOW THE RULES (those pesky creatures). They keep the same viscosities at different temperatures and pressures. Ball point pen ink is an example of a pressure-dependent non-Newtonian liquid. In the pen, it's REALLY thick. At the moment of shear, under the pressure of passing over the ball and onto the paper, it's viscosity collapses and it flows onto the paper where it reqains its earlier thickness and doesn't run all over everything.
Modern motor lubricating oil is made to keep the same thickness despite dramatic changes in temperature AND pressure. Since the Society of Automotive Engineers is loath to change anything they've been using for awhile (consider the metric system of measurement) they created a way of defining motor oil viscosity which encompassed the modern keep-the-same-thickness-across-a-temperature-range "multi-viscosity oil"
10W-40 or 5W-30 really means the viscosity STAYS THE SAME at different temperatures and pressures. You can still find 30W and 40W oils in some stores. People used to say,"Thirty weight oil" or "Forty weight oil" when refering to these fixed viscosity lubricants.
If you expect to operate your vehicle in high temperatures all the time, a heavier range of oil will protect the engine as it first starts running, but not break down in the heat. If you're heading to the polar cold, thinner oil won't turn to jelly when it's cold, but still protect the engine when it's at operating temps. You still need the lubricating capability, so the ranged viscosity keeps the engine protected across the temperature and pressure ranges.
Henry Paul - 17 Jul 2004 19:54 GMT We have an extreme range of temperatures where I live. I change my own oil and I notice substantial differences in the viscosity of the oil both out of the jug and out of the engine when I change it based on the temperature outside. It pours easier when it's hot and not as easy when it is cold. If it is cold enough, it pours even slower.
 Signature Henry Paul
> > The number 30/40/50/etc represents a range of viscosity > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > capability, so the ranged viscosity keeps the engine protected across > the temperature and pressure ranges. Philip Procter - 20 Jul 2004 04:58 GMT That's backwards:
When cold, 10w40 acts like a 10w When hot, 10w40 acts like a 40w
The question I have is protection from start-up wear and in the high speed bearings of a turbocharger?
One of the big oil companies (Castrol, I think) is making a big deal about its special polymers thant stay on the metal and lube it during those crucial first seconds after sstartup. Anyone know how much is truth and how much is marketing?
Also, the high speeds and extreme temperatures in a turbo would seem to demand a unique oil formulation. Anyone know if any of today oils or synthetics are better for turbos than others?
Thanks,
Philip
>Wouldn't the difference between 10W30 and 10W40 be 25% difference? >That's quite a bit. And for the worst temperature condition. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- Juhan Leemet - 20 Jul 2004 06:01 GMT > One of the big oil companies (Castrol, I think) is making a big deal > about its special polymers thant stay on the metal and lube it during > those crucial first seconds after sstartup. Anyone know how much is > truth and how much is marketing? I remember (decades ago) people in the Montreal Alfa club liked the oil additive "MolySlip" (with molybdenum disulphide ISTR?) This worked sort of like a suspended high temperature graphite grease: slippery "plates" of molecules, which would settle on bearing surfaces and supposedly provided lubrication when there wasn't much oil in the journals. I remember using it in my 2000 GTV a couple of times, too. One of the track racers claimed it saved his engine once when he put a hole in the oil pan and didn't notice (until the smoke?). OTOH, others warn against additives that might gum up the works. Dunno. Anybody use anything like MolySlip these days?
 Signature Juhan Leemet Logicognosis, Inc.
Henry Paul - 20 Jul 2004 10:26 GMT I have seen a product at AutoZone called Slick 50, which claims to do the same thing. It's supposed to cling to metal parts better when the engine is at rest so it doesn't get so badly hammered at startup.
 Signature Henry Paul
> > One of the big oil companies (Castrol, I think) is making a big deal > > about its special polymers thant stay on the metal and lube it during [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > notice (until the smoke?). OTOH, others warn against additives that might > gum up the works. Dunno. Anybody use anything like MolySlip these days? y_p_w - 20 Jul 2004 20:58 GMT > I have seen a product at AutoZone called Slick 50, which claims to do the > same thing. It's supposed to cling to metal parts better when the engine is > at rest so it doesn't get so badly hammered at startup. I would stay far, far away from supposed engine treatments from Slick 50, Duralube, or any number of snake oil vendors. BTW - Slick 50 was bought out by Quaker State, and is now part of Sopus (Pennzoil/QS/Shell).
Check out the 1997 settlement of FTC complaints against Slick 50:
<http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1997/07/slick.htm>
They made tons of misrepresentations about the effectiveness of regular motor oil regarding startup protection. The anti-wear additives in most motor oils actually form somewhat of a protective layer during startup. They've also never proved that Slick 50 (PTFE) actually bonds to moving engine parts. About the only application I can see for PTFE as a lubricant is in a grease or spray lube. They no longer make the claims, but a lot of people will likely buy it based on their previous claims.
I tried Slick 50 once, and the only thing I noticed was that there was some hard, brownish crud stuck to the filler cap and the threads of the valve cover.
Henry Paul - 20 Jul 2004 22:20 GMT I've never used any. As far as optimum starting protection, I use a motor oil with a temperature range suited to my climate zone. My Subie actually starts with fewer cranks than my Jeep did. That thing could crank for a solid 7 seconds before ignition. I've logged my Subie ~2 seconds of cranking.
 Signature Henry Paul
> > I have seen a product at AutoZone called Slick 50, which claims to do the > > same thing. It's supposed to cling to metal parts better when the engine is [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > some hard, brownish crud stuck to the filler cap and the threads of the > valve cover. y_p_w - 20 Jul 2004 20:48 GMT > > One of the big oil companies (Castrol, I think) is making a big deal > > about its special polymers thant stay on the metal and lube it during [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > notice (until the smoke?). OTOH, others warn against additives that might > gum up the works. Dunno. Anybody use anything like MolySlip these days? Apparently MoS2 is used in assembly lube, and may be present in high concentration in 5W-20 motor oils, as well as in gear lubes. What I gather is that the sulfur is corrosive to copper parts. I'm not sure how much copper/brass/bronze is exposed to motor oil though.
Juhan Leemet - 21 Jul 2004 00:58 GMT >> > One of the big oil companies (Castrol, I think) is making a big deal >> > about its special polymers thant stay on the metal... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > gather is that the sulfur is corrosive to copper parts. I'm not sure > how much copper/brass/bronze is exposed to motor oil though. Well, head gaskets are copper, aren't they? I guess they only touch oil "edge on" in the various passages through the gasket from block to head.
 Signature Juhan Leemet Logicognosis, Inc.
Mickey - 20 Jul 2004 17:32 GMT > That's backwards: > > When cold, 10w40 acts like a 10w > When hot, 10w40 acts like a 40w snip
> Thanks, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >>Don't believe me, check http://www.ixion.org.uk/faq/oil.html It is NOT a 25% change. Don't believe there is any percentage relationship between various oil weight ratings.
Oil viscosity changes with temperature. For straight weight oil each weight rating has its own curve visc Vs temp. With multi-visc oils the additives change the curve so they thin out with temp much less than straight weight oil, flatter curve. For something like 10-40, a thin base oil that has the same visc as 10 weight at the cold temp measurement point will thin out to where it is the same visc as 40 weight at the upper measurement point. (Can't remember what the temperatures are at the measurement points.)
Mickey
Henry Paul - 20 Jul 2004 19:38 GMT Right, so if it is really cold you want a number lower than 10, or if it is really hot you want a number higher than 20 or 30. Like say 5w30 for winter and 10w40 for summer.
We have hot summers and cold winters so I run 10w40 in the summer and 5w30 in the winter.
 Signature Henry Paul
> > That's backwards: > > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Mickey CompUser - 22 Jul 2004 00:58 GMT > For something like 10-40, a > thin base oil that has the same visc as 10 weight at the cold temp > measurement point will thin out to where it is the same visc as 40 > weight at the upper measurement point. (Can't remember what the > temperatures are at the measurement points.) Except that 40-weight is *heavier/thicker/more viscous, than 10-weight.
Viscosity increases numerically, with lubricating oils.
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