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Car Forum / Subaru Cars / June 2004Coolant
Was reading a topic in another non-automotive group and the subject of coolants came up and got to be a hot topic. Was wondering what official position is on coolant for Subbies, the green Ethylene glycol or the orange propylene glycol (DEX-cool). What type are you folks using? Mickey > official position is on coolant for Subbies, the green Ethylene glycol > or the orange propylene glycol (DEX-cool). Hi, I don't know about an "official" position, but my "unofficial" position is to stick with the color that came from the factory. I've experienced some leakage changing to orange from green in older vehicles that went away when I went back to green. I understand there's been documentation of some kind of sludge formed if the two are mixed. Some have reported no problems. YMMV. Rick My new GM has Dex-cool of course. Lots of discussion on other NG's about this re: AKA Death-Cool. Supposedly there is a lawsuit against GM for leaking intake manifold gaskets caused by Dex-Cool. It's also rumored to cause sludge buildup in the cooling system. Yes, you need a complete flush if changing between the two. I've also heard that Dex-Cool is not to be used in brass radiators. I'll stick to non-sylicate green stuff in the Subie & probably switch over when the warranty runs out on the GM. My $.02 FWIW. Mike '01 OBW > Was reading a topic in another non-automotive group and the subject of > coolants came up and got to be a hot topic. Was wondering what [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Mickey Well, I would be the idiot that tried to switch from green to orange on my 2002 subaru. Prestone says you can....BUT DO NOT BELIEVE THEM. There was a bit too much corrosion in the system after 6 months and 6,000 miles. The corrosion floats to the top and I noticed a color change in the coolant overflow bottle. I got to the shop and used a super flush on it four times then added the Prestone Green coolant. Hopefully this will stop the problem. It looked like I took the radiator to the beach. Debating if I should add the subaru conditioner to it or not...any ideas? Matt > Was reading a topic in another non-automotive group and the subject of > coolants came up and got to be a hot topic. Was wondering what [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Mickey I wouldnt do it - I hear it solves the head gasket problem but now owners who have done it are experiencing overheating problems. > Debating if I should add the subaru conditioner to it or not...any ideas? > Matt I let my dealer put in their recommended cooling system conditioner about 6,000 miles ago. Before the conditioner I was adding a measured 4 oz of coolant to the recovery bottle ever 3-4,000 miles. Since the condition was put in I have not added any coolant. I have noticed NO problems whatso ever in the 6,000 miles since the conditioner was put in. Car runs cool and heater runs hot as normal. I think people who have trouble after they add any coolant conditioner additives are ones who have a junked up system before the add. O-YES: another important point that by letting SOA do their thing I received a 8 year 100,000 mile warranty which is a very good thing. JMO. > Well, I would be the idiot that tried to switch from green to orange on my > 2002 subaru. Prestone says you can....BUT DO NOT BELIEVE THEM. There was a [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > > > Mickey > Well, I would be the idiot that tried to switch from green to orange on my > 2002 subaru. Prestone says you can....BUT DO NOT BELIEVE THEM. There was a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Debating if I should add the subaru conditioner to it or not...any ideas? > Matt I'd get rid of as much green Prestone (from the yellow bottle) as I could. I've heard the amount of silicates in regular Prestone has gone down over the year, but it still has it. Silicates are known to cause a host of problems when they inevitably go out of suspension. Most Japanese carmakers use smallish radiators with smaller passages. The word I hear is that silicate sludge buildup can become a bigger problem in such radiators. My theory is that perhaps Dex-Cool may not be the best solution because Japanese carmakers prefer to use phosphate corrosion inhibitors in addition to some organic-acid inhbitors that most carmakers use. To follow most European carmakers recommendations for phosphate-free coolant, Dex-Cool was thusly formulated. The idea is that typically hard European water causes abrasive precipitates to form. I'm guessing that a phosphate and OAT coolant (Japanese OEM) may be the correct one for most Subarus. > I'd get rid of as much green Prestone (from the yellow bottle) as I > could. I've heard the amount of silicates in regular Prestone has > gone down over the year, but it still has it. Silicates are known > to cause a host of problems when they inevitably go out of suspension. Hi, Dumb question: how do silicates go out of suspension when they're in a constantly circulating base liquid? There's a lot of argument pro and con on silicate presence or absence in coolant. I've run regular green Prestone in a variety of cars, always using a 50-50 mix of coolant and DISTILLED water. I'm not going to stick my neck out and say for sure there's been no problem, but I will say I haven't noticed one. This with American, English, German, Italian and Japanese cooling systems. They've all been changed at two year intervals. Water pumps have lasted from 125k miles to 150k+ miles, radiators haven't clogged or developed corrosion leaks, etc. So I'll add another theory: perhaps the silicate "problem" may be one of those that only crops up in neglected systems? Rick >>I'd get rid of as much green Prestone (from the yellow bottle) as I >>could. I've heard the amount of silicates in regular Prestone has [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Dumb question: how do silicates go out of suspension when they're in a > constantly circulating base liquid? They precipitate out. I would guess that hot/cold cycles would have something to do with it. I don't think it matters if it's constantly being mixed. Oil sludge can form in the crankcase even though it's constantly circulated. In addition, because of silicates, coolant has an 18 month shelf life. I could imagine coolant sitting in a warehouse and/or shelf that long. > There's a lot of argument pro and con on silicate presence or absence in > coolant. I've run regular green Prestone in a variety of cars, always [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > intervals. Water pumps have lasted from 125k miles to 150k+ miles, > radiators haven't clogged or developed corrosion leaks, etc. I don't know of any Japanese carmaker that will use silicated coolant at the factory. Most warn not to. check out this service bulletin from a maker of heavy duty heat exchangers: <www.mesabi.com/pdf/SERV_BUL_110.PDF> "1. ANTIFREEZE Antifreeze is high in silicates. High silicate antifreezes were designed to protect the aluminum components in automobile engines. More and more of this type of antifreeze ends up in heavy-duty engines where it can cause problems. Silicate gel adheres to cold surfaces so it is seen in the radiator first. We suggest the contaminant be analyzed and the proper corrective action taken. We have seen instances where the problem is not only silicate but other contaminants as well." > So I'll add another theory: perhaps the silicate "problem" may be one of > those that only crops up in neglected systems? At the very least, a little bit will precipitate out, bond to water pump seals, and be mildly abrasive. > Dumb question: how do silicates go out of suspension when they're in a > constantly circulating base liquid? IIRC, the problem comes when you switch from one format coolant to the other (and I can't remember which sequence is badder, or if both are equally bad)...it's difficult to get ALL the residual coolant out, and apparently they don't co-reside well. I got enough info that I decided I'd stay with what was in there, and moved on to other matters. I think I saw it up on nasioc.com. Steve I have read that high phosphates and high silicates are bad in modern engines. I have also read that no phosphates and low silicates is preferred because of water pump cavitations. Europe has a coolant called I think G-11 ? and in the us it's sold as Zerox G05 and is now the official coolant for Ford and Chrysler i.e. Mercedes. After much reading on the subject and contacting SOA (who said any coolant not bio friendly is ok) I flushed and refilled my Forester with Zerex GO5. Comments??? > > Dumb question: how do silicates go out of suspension when they're in a > > constantly circulating base liquid? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Steve > I have read that high phosphates and high silicates are bad in modern > engines. I have also read that no phosphates and low silicates is preferred [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > contacting SOA (who said any coolant not bio friendly is ok) I flushed and > refilled my Forester with Zerex GO5. Comments??? Zerex G-05 is supposedly a low-silicate organic-acid coolant. Most Japanese carmakers say silicates are a bad, bad thing - especially Honda and Toyota. I thought water pump cavitations were more likely with borates. Here's a pretty good explanation: <http://www.bullittarchive.com/Maintenance/antifreeze> "In Europe the water is generally very hard with high concentrations of minerals. European car manufactures prefer coolants with little or no phosphates. The phosphates can react with the magnesium and calcium salts in hard water, which can form solids. These solids can wear erode seals or clog narrow cooling passages. Japanese manufacturers prefer coolants that are free of silicates, but higher in phosphates. It's difficult for the owner of a Japanese import to find this kind of antifreeze at the local parts store or even the dealership. However, for years American shops have been installing the traditional green coolant in Japanese imports with no problems. American and Japanese coolants contain phosphates to protect the iron and steel parts in the engine. Even though the U.S. has hard water, it is not nearly as hard as the tap water found in Europe. In Europe it is not a good idea to use the standard green coolant. In addition to phosphates, most domestic coolants contain silicone and silicates. The silicone helps lubricate the water pump while the silicates help protect aluminum parts by coating the surfaces." This is what Prestone has to say (www.prestone.com): "Q: Does Prestone® Antifreeze/Coolant contain phosphates? A: Some European automobile manufacturers request that a phosphate-free antifreeze be used in their vehicles. This issue is related to the extremely high mineral content of the water in Europe. If you were to mix an antifreeze that contained phosphates with the type of water they have in Europe, it may produce deposits that can settle in the cooling system and promote corrosion." > dealership. However, for years American shops have been installing the > traditional green coolant in Japanese imports with no problems. Hi, This has been my experience, but once again, it looks like the various sources cited mention the same problem: hard water. I mix my coolant with DISTILLED water ONLY based on advice from a mechanic/radiator guy over 30 years ago. The hard water problem's been known for a long time! Another question: don't they have distilled water in Europe? Seems a far simpler solution than working the chemists overtime to come up with exotic formulations. Sounds like an outgrowth of the "myth" of German engineering at work: "Hmmm... we could build this with four bolts and use a regular wrench, so let's see if we can build it with 20 and have to invent two new special tools to reach and turn them. Then call it 'sophisticated engineering.' And when it fails because it's too complex to be reliable, blame the operator for not knowing how to use it properly." Rick > > dealership. However, for years American shops have been installing the > > traditional green coolant in Japanese imports with no problems. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > with DISTILLED water ONLY based on advice from a mechanic/radiator guy > over 30 years ago. The hard water problem's been known for a long time! Fine. As to any potential for silicates gelling out, I don't think hard water has anything to do with it. It also sounds like liquid silicone slows down the silicate-to-gel process. I've heard enough horror stories about silicate gelling to conclude that it's not worth using yellow-green Prestone in sub 2-gallon capacity Japanese radiator. > Another question: don't they have distilled water in Europe? Seems a far > simpler solution than working the chemists overtime to come up with [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > to be reliable, blame the operator for not knowing how to use it > properly." I brought a bottle of silicate-free coolant and a bottle of distilled water to a shadetree mechanic - with specific instructions to use the distilled water. When I got the car back, there was about a quart of coolant left in the bottle, but the distilled water was unopened. I guess regardless of what I asked for, he was going to use tap water. I guess the Europeans are so used to their own rules - i.e. it's inevitable that someone is going to mix the coolant with hard well water. I used to live in Santa Clara, California, where 2/3 of the water was from wells within the city limits. I measured the mineral content with an aquarium test kit where the number of drops of a chemical was used. You keep adding the drops until the mixture changes color. I stopped adding them after a point where I knew it was way too hard. This is probably the kind of water European carmakers design for. > I've heard enough horror stories about silicate gelling to conclude that it's not > worth using yellow-green Prestone in sub 2-gallon capacity Japanese > radiator. Not that it will change your mind, but my Subie went over 300k miles on the original radiator before I replaced it. It started running a bit warm starting the climb up to the local mountains during the heat of summer (100 def F and above in my area) but didn't actually overheat. The car's got 354k miles right now. My Toyota Camry went 168k miles before the radiator was replaced due to a leak caused by impact with some road debris. It's now got 215k miles. Cooling system's spotless. My Toyota truck had 136k miles on the original radiator, which was also spotless, when it was stolen. It replaced a VW Rabbit that had 189k miles when I sold it, again, with a spotless radiator. My brother's usually traded his Hondas and Nissans at around 150k, a buddy's wife is closing in on 200k with her Camry. Their experiences mirror mine (despite Honda's warning to use only their brand of coolant, at least in later models.) I could relate more, but my point remains that if you use regular green Prestone coolant with DISTILLED water, I think the horror stories are overblown. Not that I'm standing up for Prestone, but since they sell about a zillion gallons of their product each year, if they were really responsible for so much damage, I'd think they'd be changing things. (Think back to DuPont Zerex with the anti-leak formula of the early '70s--DuPont bought a few engines and pulled the stuff off the market muy pronto.) As to the experience with the shade tree guy, I guess that might explain why I do my own work whenever possible--assuming he used the entire gallon of coolant with only half a gallon of distilled water, I can come up with several things that could be wrong with that picture. Nothing wrong with going silicate free if you wish. Just remember the sky's NOT gonna fall if you can't find it (though it shouldn't be hard--IIRC, Havoline was silicate free for years before any of the others, probably still is, and is relatively widely distributed at least for those here in the US. For the greatest peace of mind, get your coolant from your dealer parts dept.) Rick >>I've heard enough horror stories about silicate gelling to conclude that it's not >>worth using yellow-green Prestone in sub 2-gallon capacity Japanese >>radiator. > I could relate more, but my point remains that if you use regular green > Prestone coolant with DISTILLED water, I think the horror stories are [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the entire gallon of coolant with only half a gallon of distilled water, > I can come up with several things that could be wrong with that picture. Nah - he never touched the distilled water. He seemed to have used the right amount of coolant. He just sort of blew me off about the distilled water. Our municipal water supply is exceptionally soft though. I don't particularly trust the guy, but it was my mom's car, and she insisted on using him. I've since learned to do it myself. I wouldn't let him touch any car I own, but my folks still insist that he work on their cars. > Nothing wrong with going silicate free if you wish. Just remember the > sky's NOT gonna fall if you can't find it (though it shouldn't be > hard--IIRC, Havoline was silicate free for years before any of the > others, probably still is, and is relatively widely distributed at least > for those here in the US. For the greatest peace of mind, get your > coolant from your dealer parts dept.) It's $15 for a gallon of uncut OEM coolant at the dealer vs $7 for a bottle of yellow Prestone at Wal-Mart. Given a 2 gallon capacity and a change period of 30K miles/30 months, I figure the difference in cost is neglible. I've seen one heavy-duty coolant manufacturer's info referring to silicate gelling as "green goo". Almost all makers of silicated coolants say they have a rather limited shelf life (18 months). You theorized that perhaps hard water has an effect on silicate gelling, and some of the info seems to back that claim up. At the very least, almost every auto manufacturer is going to lower silicate coolants. However, most of the info I've seen indicates that silicate gel isn't water soluble, and that restoring a gelled system requires a lot of effort: <http://www.frontierpower.ca/service/lowsilicate.htm> "Unfortunately, there are few effective methods for cleaning the gel from an already-clogged system. Radiators must be removed and sent out for a thorough cleaning. The engine must be flushed with a caustic solution. The gel is not water soluble, so flushing with water alone will not work." > Sounds like an outgrowth of the "myth" of German > engineering at work: "Hmmm... we could build this with four bolts and > use a regular wrench, so let's see if we can build it with 20 and have > to invent two new special tools to reach and turn them. Then call it > 'sophisticated engineering.' LoL on that one. It also hold true with Heckler & Koch weapons. They're good, but reinventing the wheel in a previously unimagined format seems to be an obsession. Steve > LoL on that one. It also hold true with Heckler > & Koch weapons. They're good, but reinventing > the wheel in a previously unimagined format seems > to be an obsession. Yes... H&K's always been way out of my price range (using the theory that even with unlimited amounts of money--not my problem!--there's a right price for everything, which they exceed!) so I'll take your word on their quality. For an interesting aside on this obsession, see if you can find the story on the very first day of the Panzer field trials during WWII. The Germans were certain they had invented the ultimate tank, and were laughing themselves silly at the Russians building the T-34s which my forefathers thought would never run: those Russians aren't smart enough to build a tank, you know! Comes Field Trial Day 1, and 246 Panzers were sent out in the morning for testing. At sundown, 64 were still running. The rest were broken down, and couldn't be fixed until technicians and parts were brought in from Berlin to try to get them going again, which was nigh on impossible under field conditions. (Sound familiar to any owners of current German cars? The more things change, the more they stay the same?) You can go to accounts of the war on the Eastern Front to see how the T-34s fared! Rick > H&K's always been way out of my price range (using the theory that even > with unlimited amounts of money--not my problem!--there's a right price > for everything, which they exceed!) so I'll take your word on their > quality. They're good, but I don't feel they are worth the premium H&K exacted on the civilian market for years...haven't looked lately so I don't know if they're still high or not. See more below. > Comes Field Trial Day 1, and 246 Panzers were sent out in the morning > for testing. At sundown, 64 were still running. The rest were broken [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > You can go to accounts of the war on the Eastern Front to see how the > T-34s fared! Yeah...I'd be surprised if there aren't some 34s still in service, somewhere around the globe. Again, quite a contrast in approaches...I'm sure the H&K "systems" are products of engineering committees. Compare that too what some call the best assault rifle ever designed, the Kalashnikov...designed by no less than a buck sergeant, T-34 driver...as sophisticated as the H&K design is, the AK is butt ugly simple, strong and reliable. To maintain some impartiality here, I'll have to sling mud on our 16 too...it poops where it eats and is also a bit overdone, in the engineering "solutions" department. Since the likes of Browning, I'd have to say that only Kalashnikov came close. At a recent birthday celebration, K reportedly commented that he wished he "had invented a lawnmower." Steve > Was reading a topic in another non-automotive group and the subject of > coolants came up and got to be a hot topic. Was wondering what official [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Mickey Thanks for all the comments. Mickey GO GREEN! See my message below. Matt Previous message-Well, I would be the idiot that tried to switch from green to orange on my 2002 subaru. Prestone says you can....BUT DO NOT BELIEVE THEM. There was a bit too much corrosion in the system after 6 months and 6,000 miles. The corrosion floats to the top and I noticed a color change in the coolant overflow bottle. I got to the shop and used a super flush on it four times then added the Prestone Green coolant. Hopefully this will stop the problem. It looked like I took the radiator to the beach. Matt > > Was reading a topic in another non-automotive group and the subject of > > coolants came up and got to be a hot topic. Was wondering what official [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Mickey > Was reading a topic in another non-automotive group and the subject of > coolants came up and got to be a hot topic. Was wondering what [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Mickey Well, green IS my favorite color... -Matt |
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