> Here is the real story again;
Hi,
Not to disparage your experience--or credentials--but many things you've
stated are NOT the same as those stated by others w/ equally valid
experiences. So let me play devil's advocate for a minute:
> Use Dino oil first few thousand miles of new or rebuilt engine because > it allows metal to metal parts to wear or 'break in'. This is needed > to 'seat' rings and such or you will loose compression and burn oil.
Discounted by Mobil 1 among others. Several makes now come with a
factory fill of Mobil 1. Are you telling us these manufacturers
"pre-break in" their engines at whatever cost? Since ONE of the mfrs is
GM, the king of cheap IMO, I doubt it. None of these makes is known as
an oil burner as far as I've heard.
> Switch to Synth oil at any time. Synth oil stops metal to metal wear > almost completely unless you waited too long or have a defect in the
> oiling system.
"Waited too long?" What does that mean? Synthetic oil will stop metal to
metal wear if used early but not later? This statement doesn't make
sense to me. But I'm open to learning.
> Dino oil breaks down quickly and allows if not causes your engine to
> foul itself up with burned and broken down oil deposits. These block > oil passages and deposit non lube particles on bearings, etc.
No argument that dino oil does break down as far as meeting all its
design specs. It's been long held the oil itself doesn't break down, but
the additives do. There are arguments this isn't necessarily true. I
won't touch that. However, the idea that non lube particles are going to
be deposited on surfaces such as bearings that are constantly awash in
pressurized oil flies in the face of the experience of too many of us
who've torn down at least a few engines.
> We use Dino oil because that was all that was available back when cars > started needing oil that was plentiful and cheap. Dino oil was not
> chosen because it was good for cars, but because it was the only thing > that fit the need.
It's STILL plentiful, cheap and fits the need. I'd probably agree that
after ONLY getting a quarter of a million miles or more out of several
engines, that dino oil's certainly NOT good for engines!
> 3000 mile oil changes are a fantasy that keeps the oil companies happy > and discourages any great strides in improvements in the standard oils > and oil additives used in modern dino oils. They love to sell 4 or 5
Anyone who's chiseled carbon out of oil pans and valve covers in the
mid-50s or earlier will probably disagree with you on the lack of "great
strides" in oil technologies.
> But government forced car manu to at least change it to 5000.
Sounds good, but look at "severe" service requirements in your owners
manual. "Severe" for most of us means "if you drive your car." I don't
see too many 5000 mile "severe" recommendations.
> Synth oils are usually good for 25000 miles but vary according to your > specific driving situation (we always have to say that). You will
> notice that some Synth ads on TV are now advertising 15000 between
But, of course, the oil filters aren't good for that length of time.
Even Amsoil, the biggest proponent of 25k mile oil changes I know of,
recommends more frequent filter changes. Extend this idea a bit and
we're back to the "bypass filter" idea as advertised by Frantz years ago
and continued by Motor Guard and others today. What protects your engine
better: dino oil w/ 3k miles on it, or synthetic w/ 25k? I haven't seen
this addressed anywhere but have my suspicions based on personal
experience. Some oil analysis proponents have weighed in here and there
on this subject--I'm not one of them as long as I can still do an oil
change for the price of an analysis, and KNOW I've got clean oil in
there. Maybe I don't watch enough TV, but I haven't seen any oil
advertised 15k miles since the original Mobil 1 ads--I see BMW DOES
advertise their cars only need servicing every 15k (and I'm sure they're
using synthetics) but I wouldn't trust them as the final arbitrer of
"truth" about oil. Most BMW owners I've known tell me that by 75k miles,
oil is the LEAST of their problems...
> and tech rep from a major car manufacturer, would recommend Synth oils
> with changes at 15000 miles EXCEPT!;
>
> You must follow your warranty schedule while in warranty,
> You must follow your extended warranty schedule while in extended
> warranty
Herein lies the rub! The mfrs DON'T generally seem to agree that
synthetics are so good, else they'd have ANOTHER schedule in the book
for synthetic use. From the manuals I've read, the mfrs don't even want
to have a dog into that fight. Using synthetics for their long life,
then having to change at dino intervals to maintain warranty coverage
seems a false economy to me.
> with around 100,000 to 130,000 miles, you probably can use Dino oils
> and let it be the next guys problem.
With regular oil changes between 3k and 5k miles, you can double those
figures easily. You'll see that documented here and too many other
places way too often to think it's a fluke.
> Synth oils can usually be run at a weight lower than usual and improve
> gas mileage. So if you use 10W30, you can usually use 5W30 Synth
> with same protection and better mileage.
Again, I don't see the auto mfrs weighing in on that one.
> Your engine will not get eaten alive while Synth is in it, but it will > while Dino oils are in it. Remember that when thinking that Synth is
Methinks you're beating a dead horse by now.
> Also, refer to the above when thinking about purchasing the marketing > idea of 'Blended' oils. 1 Qt of crap mixed with 4 Qts of Synth yields > 5 Qts of crap.
I'd agree IF one was blending oil with crap. However, look on the
bottles and you'll find most dino and most synthetics meet the same
specs. Whether "home made" blending, within a brand and grade, helps is
subject to argument. But it probably does no harm. As I stated in
another post, if I could do a true head to head test of otherwise
identical engines, I'd be less skeptical of both the ~probably~ inflated
claims for synthetic and the ~probably~ inflated criticisms of dino.
> However, no bottle of Blended I have ever found even says how much
> Synth is in it, could be 1 one hundredth and it would still be a
> 'blend'.
On that issue, we agree! But until the U.S. comes up with some universal
standards that ALL oils use for their ratings, it probably will be the
only one...
But experiences differ and YMMV and all that. So there's a big choice in
the marketplace. One's free to spend one's money as seen fit.
Rick
Frank - 12 May 2006 17:55 GMT
Got me thinking. As a chemist I have no practical experience with oils
but wonder if bio-diesel will function as a synthetic oil. I believe
both are fatty acid esters.
Edward Hayes - 12 May 2006 19:08 GMT
Rick. I agree with your thinking and realize you have put some time in
formulating your answers that have a bases in the real world. Seems
that too many people have some good and some questionable ideas about
the different oil base stocks and the results of using one or the
other. Sometimes some knowledge can be dangerous if one does not look
at the complete picture. JMO Ed Hayes
> Got me thinking. As a chemist I have no practical experience with
> oils
> but wonder if bio-diesel will function as a synthetic oil. I
> believe
> both are fatty acid esters.
Carl 1 Lucky Texan - 16 May 2006 23:45 GMT
>>Here is the real story again;
>
[quoted text clipped - 131 lines]
>
> Rick
Excellent post!I wish we could 'sticky' it!
I think the old (by now) Consumers Union test with the cabs is
interesting and does 'hint' at the probability that 'we' are overly
cautious about oil change intervals and 'quality'. But it is important
to remember also that, I think cabs idle quite a bit, so the miles they
get may not have many 'starts', arguably where a lot of wear from poor
lubrication would occur. Also, I think cabs are kept indside a garage
(heated?) overnight. The kind of tests we would all like to see are
probably never gonna be done. That's why lab tests and oil analyses and
fleet managers are what we use for data. And if we did have a test,
would it be a car used by a guy commuting 30 minutes in rush hour
traffic to and from work in a compact? Or a farmer towing a horse
trailer in his V8 p'up? Or a soccer mom making short school and grocery
runs in a V6 minivan? We'd probably complain "Yeah - but that's not how
I drive MY car!"
lol!
Carl

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John Rethorst - 17 May 2006 00:33 GMT
> Excellent post!I wish we could 'sticky' it!
I went to faqs.org but didn't see a faq for this group. I don't remember ever
seeing links to one posted in the group. Do we have a faq?

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Carl 1 Lucky Texan - 17 May 2006 00:38 GMT
>>Excellent post!I wish we could 'sticky' it!
>
> I went to faqs.org but didn't see a faq for this group. I don't remember ever
> seeing links to one posted in the group. Do we have a faq?
Nah - this is unmoderated. There are some moderated Usenet groups,
rec.crafts.jewelry is one I know of. That's why it was 'wish' !
Carl

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John Rethorst - 17 May 2006 00:58 GMT
> >>Excellent post!I wish we could 'sticky' it!
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Nah - this is unmoderated. There are some moderated Usenet groups,
> rec.crafts.jewelry is one I know of. That's why it was 'wish' !
Unmoderated groups have faqs.

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Rick Courtright - 17 May 2006 01:57 GMT
> Unmoderated groups have faqs.
Hi,
I've seen faqs for a coupla unmoderated groups, but aren't they usually
the result of some enterprising soul taking it upon himself to set
things up? At least that's how it appeared to me. I honestly don't
really know!
Rick C
Carl 1 Lucky Texan - 17 May 2006 12:26 GMT
>>>>Excellent post!I wish we could 'sticky' it!
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Unmoderated groups have faqs.
You're right of course. But as Rick said, I think volunteers in those
groups have taken up the job of creating and manintaining an FAQ. We are
fairly tolerant of common questions but googling a little before asking
can't hurt. The popular Subaru forums have FAQs and 'stickies' and
search functions. www.usmb.net and www.nasioc.com . There are others as
well.
Carl

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