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Car Forum / Subaru Cars / August 2006

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DIY Oil change in a 2002 Subaru Forester?

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xfile - 04 Aug 2006 15:54 GMT
Hi all,

I want to change my own oil in my 2002 Subaru Forester, but have never
done it myself before on this vehicle.  Previously, I've just taken it
to Jiffy Lube, etc.  I've changed my oil previously on other vehicles,
so I know the procedure.

Can anyone give me any tips or things to look out for when I do the oil
change?  Also, any recommendations on after market filters and oil
products would be great!

The car has only about 22, 000 miles on it, as my wife uses it to go
back and forth to work nearby.  All maintainence is current and up to
date otherwise.

Thanks for your help!

DJ
Body Roll - 04 Aug 2006 16:10 GMT
> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> change?  Also, any recommendations on after market filters and oil
> products would be great!

I buy the cheapest 5w30 I can find and stay away from Fram for no good
reason
except some folks previously complained about those. I change the
filter
every other oil change.
Add 3 qt and see if that's enough. I think even with the oil filter 4
qt is
all it needs.
If you want to spend a lot of extra dough Mobil 1 is in your future.
bigjim@backpacker.com - 04 Aug 2006 17:56 GMT
Walmart has supr tech full syn for $12.88 for 5 qts.  Their filters are
$2 each too.
> > Hi all,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> all it needs.
> If you want to spend a lot of extra dough Mobil 1 is in your future.
John Rethorst - 04 Aug 2006 18:03 GMT
Would you think of changing the filter with every oil change?

> Walmart has supr tech full syn for $12.88 for 5 qts.  Their filters are
> $2 each too.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> > all it needs.
> > If you want to spend a lot of extra dough Mobil 1 is in your future.

Signature

John Rethorst
jrethorst at post dot com

bigjim@backpacker.com - 04 Aug 2006 19:27 GMT
I change the filter every oil change.  Why contaminate fresh oil when a
new filter is only 2-3 bux?  I use a suction device to suck oil out
through dipstick then change filter.  A lot neater than openining drain
plug and actually removes more oil.

> Would you think of changing the filter with every oil change?
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> > > all it needs.
> > > If you want to spend a lot of extra dough Mobil 1 is in your future.
KLS - 04 Aug 2006 22:11 GMT
>I change the filter every oil change.  Why contaminate fresh oil when a
>new filter is only 2-3 bux?  I use a suction device to suck oil out
>through dipstick then change filter.  A lot neater than openining drain
>plug and actually removes more oil.

Can you provide a link to this suction device?  It sounds great.
bigjim@backpacker.com - 05 Aug 2006 04:00 GMT
http://www.griotsgarage.com/catalog.jsp?&SKU=10122

This thing is great.  It may be cheaperat marine supply place

> >I change the filter every oil change.  Why contaminate fresh oil when a
> >new filter is only 2-3 bux?  I use a suction device to suck oil out
> >through dipstick then change filter.  A lot neater than openining drain
> >plug and actually removes more oil.
>
> Can you provide a link to this suction device?  It sounds great.
JohnO - 04 Aug 2006 16:38 GMT
> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> DJ

Keep an eye out for the washer that's on the oil drain plug. Some of
the guys here replace that every time, and why not since they're just
80 cents.

I drain the pan into a container first, let it go for an hour or so.
Then I remove the filter, hoping that not too much oil will run down my
arm before I can get it spun off and into the container.

-John O
Frank - 04 Aug 2006 21:00 GMT
> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> back and forth to work nearby.  All maintainence is current and up to
> date otherwise.

You should have ramps.  Most difficult part is taking off protective
shield or accessing portion to drain plug and filter. In my '98 you had
to take off whole shield and in my '03 there is the window to open but
don't know transition year.  In either case, you have these funny
plastic pop screws to learn to work with but are not a problem after
you get used to them.  Definately get a supply of crusher washers for
the drain plug.  After the first few changes on my '98, using the old
washer, it started to leak.  I use cheap oil from Pep Boys, after all
it is SAE specs, and Fram or Purolator filters.
Rick Courtright - 05 Aug 2006 01:12 GMT
> change?  Also, any recommendations on after market filters and oil
> products would be great!

Hi,

Oil filters: OEM first, followed by Purolator (they make OEM for Subie
USA), and the Wal-Mart Super Tech (made by Champion labs, who also make
the Bosch brand in the US, Mobil 1 and a host of others) have all worked
well for my old Loyale. I've used the orange Frams on a host of
vehicles, and as evidenced by the 250k miles a friend is about to see on
his Toyota truck, they filter just fine. However, I did experience some
oil pressure drops when I tried 'em on my Subie. Wix/NAPA Gold have been
excellent choices on the vehicles I've used 'em on, but haven't tried
'em on the Subie.

Oil? Might as well ask "blonde, redhead or brunette?" Whadya like and
what's your budget? You'll get ALL kinds of opinions on both subjects,
and I'll bet a dollar nobody can put some definitive numbers on what oil
REALLY works best (outside of the labs, and the fact filters "Meet Mfr's
Warrany Requirements" and oil meets the mfr's suggested API or other
specs tells me they know far more about what's important than we're
party to!) I've run MOST of my vehicles, Subie included, on Castrol GTX.
The Subie's down now, but had 360k miles when it pulled to the side of
the road the last time, and the failure wasn't oil related. The friend's
Toyota truck mentioned above has been run on Chevron Supreme. My Camry,
which had 214k "babied freeway" miles when I got it, lived on Pennzoil
all that time, though I've switched it since.

And just for giggles, here are the general change intervals: my Subie,
3k mi; my Camry, 3750 mi; friend's Toy truck, 5k mi; my Toy truck
(below), 3k mi. Filters were always changed at each oil change, too. Of
course, I could toss a wrench in the works and describe the Subie a late
friend had: it had 240k miles when she passed, and she put in whatever
kind of oil the supermarket, drug store or 7-11 she was close to had
whenever it was a coupla quarts low, and changed it religiously (every
time it had been pitch black long enough she got tired of her
girlfriend's hubby nagging her!) As far as I know, several years later
that car's still going somewhere!

Mobil 1 is often suggested, if you want to spend the money for an
unknown amount of "improvement." Not knocking it, I'm just thinking out
loud "I know it won't hurt, but how much will it help?" Currently, I'm
running Wal-Mart's Super Tech "Full Synthetic" (we're not going to argue
the semantics of what IS or ISN'T truly "synthetic") in both the Camry
and a Toyota pickup in an experiment: it's about the same price as GTX
locally, so it's no big deal on cost. The Camry has shown NO measurable
change, in oil consumption, fuel economy, etc., but the stuff does seem
to be doing as most synthetics and cleaning things out a bit, judging by
how quickly it becomes discolored compared to dino oil. The Toyota truck
has shown a slight decrease in oil consumption. SLIGHT! (But that can't
REALLY be attributed to the oil alone: the vehicle had 63k miles between
12-31-87 when it was purchased new, and 12-31-05 when I purchased it
from the widow of the original owner. Typical "drive 2 miles, park 2
days" usage so many of our local senior citizens show. Since then, it's
had about 12k miles, so it's easy to see how just blowing some of the
spiders out COULD have an effect!) No significant change in fuel economy
has been logged (and I keep GOOD records of that.) I recently pulled the
valve cover and there IS evidence of varnish disappearing. Like the
Camry, this truck lived on Pennzoil before I got it, and I would suggest
both engines have a bit more varnish than my "Castrol engines" though
not as much as "Valvoline engines" I've looked inside. Even so, I've
seen no real differences in wear or oil consumption between the
different brands.

So what it really boils down to is this: whether you go to Wally World
and buy one of their house branded $2 filters and their house branded
oil, either dino or synthetic, and change every 3k-4k miles or so, or
spend all you want on a Mobil 1 filter and Mobil 1 oil (or other high
dollar oil and filter) and change at WHATEVER intervals you feel
appropriate (remembering that for a vehicle under warranty, you've GOT
to follow mfr's recommendations no matter what you're running), or split
the difference anywhere in between, I'll bet my other dollar you'll
never be able to document any REAL statistically significant differences
in performance well enough to state for certain, "Yup, it's definitely
THAT oil that makes the difference!" It's just a matter of your "feel
good quotient."

Of course that last statement will bring on all kinds of argument, so to
quote the fellow (retired automotive engineer) who first introduced me
to synthetic oils, bypass filtration and a coupla other things back in
the mid-70s liked to say, "Show me your numbers, and we can talk!"

Rick
M.J. - 05 Aug 2006 09:10 GMT
> Of course that last statement will bring on all kinds of argument, so to
> quote the fellow (retired automotive engineer) who first introduced me
> to synthetic oils, bypass filtration and a coupla other things back in
> the mid-70s liked to say, "Show me your numbers, and we can talk!"

Why numbers?  What about oil itself.

I think the belief that all oils are essentially the same or similar in
quality
is total crap.  There are some really bad oils out there!  Most brand name
oils are fine, but some little known brands can be really, I mean really
bad.

When I change oil I usually collect it in transparent 1 gallon containers
(old windshield-fluid plastic bottles). It sits in the garage for several
months
until I collect several gallons and dispose them together at my local Kragen
store.

I have noticed that old oil after sitting for several weeks in these
containers
has a tendency to separate, that is, thick goo accumulates at the bottom
while upper layer consists of less viscous but also extremely dirty old oil.
This is normal, but the rate/speed and magnitude at which the separation
occurs tells me something about the oils quality- its ability to keep junk
in
suspension.

Recently, I bought the cheapest oil at Walmart, 69cents per quart
-black containers, I forget the name, some no name brand essentially.
After making around 2000 miles on it and draining the stuff and letting
it sit in the plastic container for several weeks I noticed something very
unusual.  The oil separated into to two distinct layers. Bottom 2/3 -rd
layer was black and dirty, but the top 1/3rd layer became completely
translucent as if the oil was brand new!

I think that were I to skim the top layer and refill the original oil
bottles
I could return it to Walmart and claim it was unused, and perhaps even
get a refund :))))))

The thing was completely translucent, as if it never spent a minute in
the engine!  Good oil has the ability to keep dirt in suspension for very
long periods of time. Bad oil does what this oil did, that is completely
separated after several weeks only.

My advice is to avoid no name brand cheap oils. Although these
supposedly pass the grade for oil specifications they can be inferior.
Better stick with brand name products.

M.J.
M.J. - 05 Aug 2006 09:24 GMT
> After making around 2000 miles on it and draining the stuff and letting
> it sit in the plastic container for several weeks I noticed something very
> unusual.  The oil separated into to two distinct layers. Bottom 2/3 -rd
> layer was black and dirty, but the top 1/3rd layer became completely
> translucent as if the oil was brand new!

Correction:  Bottom 1/3 rd was dirty, top 2/3 rd became transparent
and clean.

M.J.

> I think that were I to skim the top layer and refill the original oil
> bottles
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> M.J.
xfile - 05 Aug 2006 17:17 GMT
Great replies, and thank you all!!

Makes me think that the best products are the ones I can get cool,
Nascar-like stickers free with purchase, along with $6.95 shipping and
handling!!

But seriously, I don't want to say money's no object, and I'm soley
concerned with putting the "best" stuff in my cars (owns a 95 Honda
Accord that just turned 100, 000).  As it is now, the oil change places
charge a minumum 20 bucks to start, which easliy covers the cost of oil
and filter.

Maybe I feel more comfortable buying "name-brand" stuff.  I wouldn't
think to put the "cheap stuff" in my car.  It's got to be cheap for a
reason, and cheap is easy to make just that.  For some reason, I don't
think I'd go to Wal-Mart either, to buy their oil.  I'd probably buy
the Penzoil stuff on the shelf right next to it, but I can't tell ya
why.....

So, maybe the eternal question will always be, what's the best??
Twenty bucks, easliy buys ya the expensive stuff, and not counting your
time, and changing your oil every 3000 mile or so, we're talking
$.00666 cents a mile....

Seems like pretty cheap insurance to me, or at least a little peace of
mind....

Thoughts??

DJ (not related to Ricky Bobbie..)
bigjim@backpacker.com - 05 Aug 2006 18:50 GMT
I was the same way too until the last oil change. Only mobil 1 or
syntec for 70000 miles on my 04 OBW.  Then I saw mobil 1 was $20 for 5
qts at Walmart. I noticed the Super tech full synthetic @ $12.88 for 5
qts.  Picked up container and looked at bottle.  API SM and ILAC GF4
the most recent and stringent standards.  Figured I'd give it a try.
Guess what -- couldnt tell the difference between more $$$$ oil and
super-tech.  I doubt walmart would mislabel product and face penalties.
So guess what- I will probably continue to buy the supertech for the
time I have my subaru. I'm confident I'll get 100-200k miles on it.
When I get a new vehicle (eagerly awaiting the 07 4 door Wrangler and
hope it comes in yellow).  After break in I'll probably put full syn
supertech in that.  I dont know the longevity of Jeep as they are
chrysler products not subaru but I doubt oil will accelerate demise. I
got 145k on my 94 Trooper using syn-blend quaker state and syntec
blend.  I would probably still have it but it was totalled and oil had
no role in its demise.  I plan on using supertech in my lawn mower with
honda engine when Ichange that too. I didnt get any nascar stickers
w/purchase though!!!!

> Great replies, and thank you all!!
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> DJ (not related to Ricky Bobbie..)
Carl 1 Lucky Texan - 05 Aug 2006 19:09 GMT
> Great replies, and thank you all!!
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> DJ (not related to Ricky Bobbie..)

since I don't recall it being mentioned in this thread - more reading
and links to analysis,a forum, etc. can be found here;
www.bobistheoilguy.com

fyi

Carl

Signature

to reply, change  ( .not)  to  ( .net)

Rick Courtright - 06 Aug 2006 00:35 GMT
> long periods of time. Bad oil does what this oil did, that is > completely separated after several weeks only.

Hi,

Your "experiment" proves two things to me:

a) gravity still works, pulling the solid particles, which are denser
than the surrounding oil, toward the center of the earth; and

b) the wine snobs who "decant" their wines before drinking MAY be on to
something!

But "completely separated after several weeks only"? Gimme a break! If
your engine sits for several weeks at a time between starts, I suppose
this could cause concern, though I'd also think you might have more
serious issues to deal with given that type of use. However, the instant
it's started and the oil is moving again, all that "settled" stuff is
going to be "resuspended" again. Ever wondered WHY it's always suggested
to change your oil HOT? (Hint: it's NOT pure sadism on the part of the
mfrs simply so they can sit back and laugh as you burn your fingers!)

For giggles, I'd suggest you try your experiment again, with yet another
type of oil. There are several "diesel" oils out there that also have
gasoline ratings, the most common of which are Delo 400 from Chevron,
Delvac from Mobil, and Rotella from Shell. AFAIK, all are still "dino"
oils (though I understand they're currently refined from the higher
grade base stocks from that family some prefer to term "synthetic"--I'll
leave those discussions to the chemists), all MUST keep much more "crud"
in suspension than regular gasoline rated oils by nature of their
primary use, and ALL have passed the ONE MILLION MILE tests from the
diesel engine mfrs. In other words, these are not "inferior" grade oils.
Please try one of these and report back to us with your results!

> My advice is to avoid no name brand cheap oils. Although these
> supposedly pass the grade for oil specifications they can be inferior.

As the man said, "Show me your numbers, and we can talk!"

"Supposedly pass"? Let me assure you, boatloads of high priced lawyers
don't understand "supposedly" in this application. You think for even a
moment an oil company that produces a "good" product's gonna stand by
idly while a competitor labels an "inferior" product as "good"? That's
fantasy, my friend. They pass the spec, or they don't. Any "superiority"
beyond that lies mainly in the land of advertising hype.

> Better stick with brand name products.

Excellent advice! ;) Doing so will increase the dividends from my oil
company stocks! They spend millions of dollars each year ensuring people
think this way. I hope they keep it up!

But just TRY to get a "brand name" recommendation from an auto mfr if
there's REALLY that much difference! Let us know what they tell you.
You'll notice all they're concerned with is the appropriate API/ILSAC or
other spec is met, and the proper weight is used. Beyond that, they
leave you to your very own barstool to discuss the differences!

In the end, you're gonna buy whatever makes YOU feel best! Your engine
can't tell you what that is... :D

Rick
M.J. - 06 Aug 2006 07:43 GMT
> For giggles, I'd suggest you try your experiment again, with yet another
> type of oil. There are several "diesel" oils out there that also have
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> diesel engine mfrs. In other words, these are not "inferior" grade oils.
> Please try one of these and report back to us with your results!

The other oils that I use are Shell Rotella 15-40, Mobil 1 15-50
and 10-30, and occasionally Valvoline straight 50 racing oil- these
are the reference group against which I was comparing.

None of  these has ever separated like I've decribed, no matter how
long they've sat in the containers.  I've had instances where oil would
sit for nearly a year, or more (I don;t keep a record of this)- still no
separation.

My take on this is that some oils are definetely better than others.
The no name thing from Walmart is got to be _relatively_ much
worse. Whether it is still acceptable for the engine, and whether it
makes a big difference for engine longevity, etc.,... that I just don't
know.  I suspect it does.

I drive a Subaru Impreza '00 (35k miles), Chevy Corsica '89
(178k miles) and Hyundai Excel '90 (85k miles), all of which
I am the original owner.  I bought the cheap oil from Walmart
for the old Corsica as it is aging and has little life left in it. After
what I've experienced I'll keep feeding it Shell Rotella and Valvoline
like I used to till the thing expires.

M.J.
Rick Courtright - 06 Aug 2006 07:55 GMT
> None of  these has ever separated like I've decribed, no matter how
> long they've sat in the containers.  I've had instances where oil would
> sit for nearly a year, or more (I don;t keep a record of this)- still no
> separation.
>
> My take on this is that some oils are definetely better than others.

Hi,

Methinks thou needest to find the nearest oil recycling center, and hie
thee to it more frequently if you have the stuff sitting around to look
at for such a long time!

I guess now I'm gonna have to search the API, ILSAC, SAE and any other
specs I can get a hold of to see if I can find a "sits on shelf for a
year after use" spec! :D

In the mean time, have fun with your old oil...

Oh, BTW, that "no name" Wal-Mart stuff has frequently been acknowledged
to be Quaker State in the past (could also be Pennzoil since they're now
the same company.) IIRC, they were the first mfr to offer a 250k mile
"no oil related failure" warranty on their oil. Sure, it was a marketing
gimmick, but the fact they're willing to stick their necks out says
something about how likely oil related failures really ARE (not!) So
I'll venture a guess your old car will do just fine on Wally's "no name"
stuff.

Rick
M.J. - 06 Aug 2006 08:40 GMT
> Oh, BTW, that "no name" Wal-Mart stuff has frequently been acknowledged
> to be Quaker State in the past (could also be Pennzoil since they're now
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I'll venture a guess your old car will do just fine on Wally's "no name"
> stuff.

Just to clarify, the 69 cents cheapo oil was from Walmart (bought at
Walmart) but was not the Walmart generic brand found in blueish color
bottles.  It was some no name brand packaged in black color quarter
bottles.  They have it in several weights 10-40 was what I used.

You keep making fun of my observations but I think that there
is some merit to them, that is they tell how good an oil additive
package is at keeping dirt particles in suspension.

If you trade-in your car every couple of years this whole issue of
oil is moot, but if you keep your cars for very long then such
post-mortem analysis on old oil may be of some value (?).
Most people dump their oil right away, I because I am lazy and
hate getting my hands dirty, happen to store oil for prolonged
periods of time.  I think this gave me a somewhat unique perspective,
I believe, is worth sharing with others.

M.J.
Rick Courtright - 06 Aug 2006 22:24 GMT
> You keep making fun of my observations but I think that there
> is some merit to them, that is they tell how good an oil additive
> package is at keeping dirt particles in suspension.

Hi,

Actually that "no-name" oil may prove to be more enviromentally friendly
than the "better" ones. Why? You can siphon off the "clean oil" from the
top and reuse it, thereby reducing the amount of "dirty" oil to be
recycled. Gravity has done a better job for you than your filter!

Think I'm pulling your leg? Send a bit in for a professional oil
analysis and see what they have to say. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if
the report comes back much better than you think! Of course, you can
also just buy a LOT of 69 cent oil for the price of the lab test... and
never really know, eh?

> If you trade-in your car every couple of years this whole issue of
> oil is moot, but if you keep your cars for very long then such
> post-mortem analysis on old oil may be of some value (?).

Actually, I "plan" to run any of my cars a minimum of 200k miles.
Sometimes that doesn't happen, other times I exceed it by quite a bit. I
change my oil at regular intervals, take it to the recycling tank
without really "looking at it", and I'm done with it. It held the "crud"
in suspension long enough to get it out the engine, and therefore, I
consider it "did its job." From there, who cares? My cars won't last any
longer or die any sooner because I looked or didn't.

While I must admit your observations HAVE caused amusement, my point
about making the judgment you did is this: visual observation is purely
anecdotal. It fits right in with another popular "car talk" element,
filtration. I'm sure you've seen one or more of the many "oil filter
studies" that float about the Internet rather constantly, in which an
untrained person with a cutoff wheel, a few extra dollars, a digital
camera and some time to waste buys several brands of filters, cuts them
up, measures the media and pronounces "this is a good one" or "this one
is garbage." In light of these discoveries, I find it hard to believe
the either the oil or filter manufacturers would bother spending so many
zillions of dollars and man hours testing their products when
determining "quality" is actually SO simple!

But maybe, just maybe, both the oil and filter mfrs are guided by the
adage "There's more than meets the eye."

So again, if it makes you feel better, please have fun looking at your
old oil! Or send it in for lab analysis, show us your numbers, and then
we can talk!

Rick
M.J. - 08 Aug 2006 07:54 GMT
> I change my oil at regular intervals, take it to the recycling tank
> without really "looking at it", and I'm done with it. It held the "crud"
> in suspension long enough to get it out the engine,

How do you know it got ALL of the junk out, and not deposited most
of it on your engine internals?  Do numbers from oil analysis tell you that?

> ..... and therefore, I consider it "did its job." From there, who cares?
> My cars won't last any longer or die any sooner because I looked or
> didn't.

Well, good for you, I guess.

M.J.
Rick Courtright - 08 Aug 2006 20:50 GMT
> How do you know it got ALL of the junk out, and not deposited most
> of it on your engine internals?  Do numbers from oil analysis tell you that?

Hi,

There is only ONE way to get ALL the crud out: tear down the engine and
clean all the parts!

Short of that, there will ALWAYS be a certain amount of crud deposited
somewhere in the engine. The places it's going to build up most,
assuming regular oil changes, will usually be benign "nooks and
crannies" where oil splashes and lands, then sits w/o being able to
circulate quickly. With MOST engines, this is NOT a problem (however,
there ARE some engine designs that are problematic, but they're
problematic REGARDLESS of the oil being used. One case in point being
the infamous Toyota "sludge engines." Not to single out Toyota--many
other mfrs have had one or more of these "problem child" engines.) As a
general rule, those places that have either pressurized oil flow, or a
lot of oil flowing over them all the time, like return galleries, will
show the least buildup of varnish or other crud. That's simple enough to
see in a teardown.

What does oil analysis do for you in this regard? It simply tells you
WHEN you need change your oil because it's reached the maximum level of
contamination it can handle w/o causing "excessive" wear or damage to
your engine. I say "excessive" because the engineers design a certain
amount in when determining THEIR idea of the life expectancy of the
engine. By changing oil and filters far more frequently than suggested
by the owners manual, we MAY be able to cut the wear factor far below
the design level. And then again, we may NOT. This is ONE of the reasons
you will probably see far more of the "high mileage" engine reports (a
quarter million miles or more is a number that sticks in my mind) are
from guys who change at more frequent intervals. But the frequency of
oil changes is only one of many factors in engine longevity, so it can't
be pointed to as THE reason a particular engine lasted a certain number
of miles.

So while the best way to achieve dependable oil analysis figures is
probably to start with a "new" engine (crate new or rebuild new) and get
a baseline figure, then have a series of oil analyses done at differing
intervals to determine what the best "average" interval is, you can
start at any point and at least have a baseline figure to use to
estimate your engine's condition. At first, while the engine's wearing
in, certain numbers will be high, then they'll usually stabilize, so you
can tell how far from a given number you've "strayed" which CAN be a
useful diagnostic tool if you're running a fleet. For the individual
owner, it's probably more a "feel good" thing, since most of us aren't
going to stop what we're doing and tear apart an engine when we see a
"high" number for say, a bearing material, indicating bearing wear.
We're going to watch the oil pressure gauge, and figure as long as it's
ok, that bearing hasn't worn badly enough to worry about.

This is why I suggested you siphon the "clean" oil off your specimen and
have it analyzed! Most of the contaminants that cause wear, the
particulates, will have settled out and won't be present in that "clean"
sample. Other items, such as metals, may or may not still be present.
But the analysis figures will tell you "change" or "keep" even so.

Another thing oil analysis will do is tell you what you're LOOKING at is
anything, or nothing, in the grand scheme of things. One of the things
your oil does is "clean" in the sense it carries crud to the filter to
be caught and held for disposal at the next change. One of the criteria
the engineers look at is the "size" of the crud, measured in microns (1
micron = .000001 m = .000039 in), and there are ranges to be concerned
with, ranges not to worry about. Most sources you can easily find
suggest most of the engine wear is caused by particles in the 5-20
micron range. A majority of oil filters on the market do VERY well at
removing crud above 20 microns, some do a pretty good job in the 10-20
micron range (brand and model CAN'T predict this! Only testing does--one
catalog number may be excellent, another barely passable), few do so
well below 10 microns or so. Why not? Engineers must balance flow and
pressure against efficiency. They CAN filter out much tinier stuff, but
then you'd be changing your filter every few hundred miles when it
clogged, and who knows how long your engine would last w/ the reduced
flow? So there's a balancing act involved.

Now to take this further, we have bypass filtration. A bypass filter CAN
get out extremely tiny junk but it can't flow much. So I'm gonna
illustrate why your "visual" estimation of how good a job your oil is
doing can be flawed.

Years ago the Frantz people introduced bypass filtration to the masses
with the "toilet paper" filter. The people selling these filters had a
neat visual aid they used to show people how well their unit worked.
They had a test bench set up with a container of clean oil, a pump, a
full flow filter and a bypass filter. There was a switch to put the
bypass filter in the loop or take it out.

They would start the machine, and you could watch the oil go thru the
full flow filter and the bypass filter. Since it was clean oil, it
wasn't an impressive sight at first. But then they would isolate the
bypass filter, and introduce a bit of carbon black to the "clean" oil.
Instantly it would turn jet black! And as it circulated thru the full
flow filter, there was NO change in color. Then they'd turn on the
bypass filter, and in a couple of minutes, the oil was back to being
"clean" again.

So the first thing that would go thru one's mind as they watched this
was "that oil is filthy" followed by "my oil filter's not doing much of
a job" and, the salesman hoped, you finished with "I'll buy one!"

But as I mentioned before, there's more than meets the eye! Carbon black
is LESS than 1 micron in size. So it's NOT a player in the wear
equations! But it certainly makes the oil LOOK bad! And, using your
visual "settling rate" estimation, it would stay "in suspension" for an
extremely long time simply because the mass of the particles is so low
it takes "forever" to settle out. Oil analysis would help you determine
if you're looking at actual wear particles, or just "carbon black" type
contaminants! One would dictate it's time to change your oil, the other
is strictly "fuggedaboutit" territory.

So "you pays your money, you makes your choices, and you takes your
chances!" IF you're blessed with the resources to take two IDENTICAL
engines, and run them under IDENTICAL conditions side by side where the
ONLY variable being changed is the oil being used, change intervals,
filter, or some other item, you can come up with decent data on what's
"best." Since the mfrs DO have these resources, and DON'T recommend any
particular oils or filters as a result of their testing, there should be
a lesson in there for us mere mortals who have to work hard just to have
one or two vehicles to drive! Otherwise, we're just arguing how many
angels can dance on the head of a pin... and that's why the man insisted
on "Show me your numbers...!"

Rick
M.J. - 09 Aug 2006 01:40 GMT
If a particular type oil is behaving substantially differently than other
well known "good" oils after its has been drained out of the crankcase
chances are it was also behaving differently when it was in the engine.
Don't you agree?

The scientific process starts with observation, visual, and other.
Findings collected this way are a basis for forming hypotheses.
Hypotheses get proved or disproved by further testing.

So basically you are right, testing would be needed to establish for
sure that the oil was no good.  I should't have stateted that the oil
IS bad, just that there are some preliminary indications that the oil
MAY BE utter crap.

Personally, when I see something fishy, I decide to optimize, i.e.
save on the cost of further testing and investigation, and I avoid the
product altogether, aware that there is a probability that I may be
wrong.  You may call it I get spooked, or follow a "buyer beware"
approach, or something.  By the way I think I behave like the average
consumer (?).

Just came from Walmart w few minutes ago, the oil brand is called
Accel, and there are several viscosities- I used 10w-40.

M.J.

>> How do you know it got ALL of the junk out, and not deposited most
>> of it on your engine internals?  Do numbers from oil analysis tell you
[quoted text clipped - 121 lines]
>
> Rick
Rick Courtright - 09 Aug 2006 08:42 GMT
> Just came from Walmart w few minutes ago, the oil brand is called
> Accel, and there are several viscosities- I used 10w-40.

Hi,

Does this oil have an API rating on the bottle? If so, does it have the
SAME API rating as, say Mobil 1, which I think most people would agree
is a "premium" quality oil?

If they both carry the same API rating, we know they both have met a
MINIMUM set of test requirements, and are therefore equal at worst. Now,
Mobil 1 MAY be far superior to Accel, but we CANNOT prove that without
scientifically valid testing protocols. Lacking those, any supposed
differences are anecdotal or advertising hype. So, you may OBSERVE that
your engine appears to be cleaner w/ Mobil 1 than with Accel (or any
other.) You then form your hypothesis that M-1 is the better oil. Now
the process DEMANDS proper testing to establish the validity of your
hypothesis. On this we agree.

Where we disagree is that you've initially tried to establish your
hypothesis (which MAY very well be valid, but we don't know!) as a basis
to describe one product as "crap" (or otherwise inferior) without
benefit of testing. My point has been, and remains, that the
manufacturers HAVE done the testing, and haven't found enough
significant difference to recommend one brand over another, AS LONG AS
each brand carries the recommended rating. I'm sure they've observed the
same things you have, but nobody's "shown us the numbers" to show that
observation carries much weight, if any, within the parameters they feel
are important.

A last note on "observations": the behavior of your oil outside of the
engine cannot be correlated to its behavior inside on its face. We could
come up with all kinds of scenarios, some of which would support your
idea, some of which would not. One, for example, that would not might
run like this:

We have two otherwise identical cars, and we fill one with 10W-40, the
other with straight 40 wt. We also have two extra quarts of each the
10W-40 and the straight 40 weight. We put one quart of each in the
regrigerator at, let's say, 35 deg F, for an hour, the other quart of
each goes outside and sits in the sun for an hour, and we send the cars
out to run 70 mph for that same hour. The average daily temperature this
time of year in my neighborhood is very close to 100 deg F. At the end
of the hour, we pour a little of each oil out and watch how easily it
flows. There is going to be a definite advantage to the multigrade that
came out of the fridge. There's probably also even a slight bit of
"advantage" in favor of the multi-grade that sat in the sun, though it
will be lesser. While we're observing that, the two cars come in and we
drain both engines simultaneously. Compare the behavior of the oils in
the engines to those sitting in the bottles. Notice a difference? We
could make up these scenarios all day. Again, how many angels can dance
on the head of a pin?

So "You pays your money and you makes your choices" on whatever makes
YOU happy, confident, whatever. You're free to think "my choice is best
because...." That's one of the benefits of having a competitive market
place to choose from, and that's about the last I care to say on this.

Rick
S - 08 Aug 2006 23:50 GMT
Hi DJ!

>Can anyone give me any tips or things to look out for when I do the oil
>change?  Also, any recommendations on after market filters and oil
>products would be great!

Basically, just do it. It helps to be able to get under the car. 17mm
socket fits the drain plug, and I use a large pair of Channel-loc
pliers to get the filter. 4 bolts hold the splash guard in place, plus
a couple pesky plastic fasteners at the upper rear corners. Use a
small flat screwdriver to gently lift the center pin ~1/4 inch, and
then pull the whole thing out. It's easier the second time . . .
I like Castrol GTX in 10W30, and change filters every other oil
change, but I change oil at 3-4K mile intervals. I use either an OEM
filter, the "upgraded" Fram item, or, if I can find 'em, Purolator
"Pure-One" filters. Takes 4 quarts w/o filter change, 4 1/2 with.
(This for the SOHC motor; I _think_ the DOHC is the same, but ???)

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101
Cam Penner - 09 Aug 2006 00:24 GMT
> Hi DJ!
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Basically, just do it. It helps to be able to get under the car. 17mm

If you jack the car up, PUT SOME BLOCKS OR AXLE STANDS
UNDER IT before YOU go under it.  Don't die doing an oil
change.

I've had some success at poking a hole in the filter with a
screwdriver and letting that drain before unscrewing it.  
It at least changed HOW the oil spills onto my arm.  I use
a Fumoto drain valve - and love it.

Signature

Cam
'02 Impreza RS

Rick Courtright - 09 Aug 2006 07:03 GMT
> I've had some success at poking a hole in the filter with a
> screwdriver and letting that drain before unscrewing it.
> It at least changed HOW the oil spills onto my arm.  I use

Hi,

I've used the screwdriver trick, or a nail thru the end of the filter,
and as you said, you're mostly redirecting which part of your arm gets
burned! Another trick I've used that ~sometimes~ makes life painless is
to break the oil filter loose about one full turn BEFORE opening your
drain valve--not quite enough for oil to start leaking. Take off the oil
filler cap so you get lots of air thru the engine, then open the drain
valve. Once the oil's out of the sump and has drained a few minutes,
remove the filter. About half the time I can get the filter off w/o even
spilling a drop. The other half the time there's a little driposis, but
not bad. I don't know why it's a hit or miss proposition unless the
anti-drainback valve sometimes does a better job than other times?

It might be worth a try to see how it works on your engine!

Rick
 
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