Car Forum / Subaru Cars / August 2006
DIY Oil change in a 2002 Subaru Forester?
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xfile - 04 Aug 2006 15:54 GMT Hi all,
I want to change my own oil in my 2002 Subaru Forester, but have never done it myself before on this vehicle. Previously, I've just taken it to Jiffy Lube, etc. I've changed my oil previously on other vehicles, so I know the procedure.
Can anyone give me any tips or things to look out for when I do the oil change? Also, any recommendations on after market filters and oil products would be great!
The car has only about 22, 000 miles on it, as my wife uses it to go back and forth to work nearby. All maintainence is current and up to date otherwise.
Thanks for your help!
DJ
Body Roll - 04 Aug 2006 16:10 GMT > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > change? Also, any recommendations on after market filters and oil > products would be great! I buy the cheapest 5w30 I can find and stay away from Fram for no good reason except some folks previously complained about those. I change the filter every other oil change. Add 3 qt and see if that's enough. I think even with the oil filter 4 qt is all it needs. If you want to spend a lot of extra dough Mobil 1 is in your future.
bigjim@backpacker.com - 04 Aug 2006 17:56 GMT Walmart has supr tech full syn for $12.88 for 5 qts. Their filters are $2 each too.
> > Hi all, > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > all it needs. > If you want to spend a lot of extra dough Mobil 1 is in your future. John Rethorst - 04 Aug 2006 18:03 GMT Would you think of changing the filter with every oil change?
> Walmart has supr tech full syn for $12.88 for 5 qts. Their filters are > $2 each too. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > all it needs. > > If you want to spend a lot of extra dough Mobil 1 is in your future.
 Signature John Rethorst jrethorst at post dot com
bigjim@backpacker.com - 04 Aug 2006 19:27 GMT I change the filter every oil change. Why contaminate fresh oil when a new filter is only 2-3 bux? I use a suction device to suck oil out through dipstick then change filter. A lot neater than openining drain plug and actually removes more oil.
> Would you think of changing the filter with every oil change? > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > > all it needs. > > > If you want to spend a lot of extra dough Mobil 1 is in your future. KLS - 04 Aug 2006 22:11 GMT >I change the filter every oil change. Why contaminate fresh oil when a >new filter is only 2-3 bux? I use a suction device to suck oil out >through dipstick then change filter. A lot neater than openining drain >plug and actually removes more oil. Can you provide a link to this suction device? It sounds great.
bigjim@backpacker.com - 05 Aug 2006 04:00 GMT http://www.griotsgarage.com/catalog.jsp?&SKU=10122
This thing is great. It may be cheaperat marine supply place
> >I change the filter every oil change. Why contaminate fresh oil when a > >new filter is only 2-3 bux? I use a suction device to suck oil out > >through dipstick then change filter. A lot neater than openining drain > >plug and actually removes more oil. > > Can you provide a link to this suction device? It sounds great. JohnO - 04 Aug 2006 16:38 GMT > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > DJ Keep an eye out for the washer that's on the oil drain plug. Some of the guys here replace that every time, and why not since they're just 80 cents.
I drain the pan into a container first, let it go for an hour or so. Then I remove the filter, hoping that not too much oil will run down my arm before I can get it spun off and into the container.
-John O
Frank - 04 Aug 2006 21:00 GMT > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > back and forth to work nearby. All maintainence is current and up to > date otherwise. You should have ramps. Most difficult part is taking off protective shield or accessing portion to drain plug and filter. In my '98 you had to take off whole shield and in my '03 there is the window to open but don't know transition year. In either case, you have these funny plastic pop screws to learn to work with but are not a problem after you get used to them. Definately get a supply of crusher washers for the drain plug. After the first few changes on my '98, using the old washer, it started to leak. I use cheap oil from Pep Boys, after all it is SAE specs, and Fram or Purolator filters.
Rick Courtright - 05 Aug 2006 01:12 GMT > change? Also, any recommendations on after market filters and oil > products would be great! Hi,
Oil filters: OEM first, followed by Purolator (they make OEM for Subie USA), and the Wal-Mart Super Tech (made by Champion labs, who also make the Bosch brand in the US, Mobil 1 and a host of others) have all worked well for my old Loyale. I've used the orange Frams on a host of vehicles, and as evidenced by the 250k miles a friend is about to see on his Toyota truck, they filter just fine. However, I did experience some oil pressure drops when I tried 'em on my Subie. Wix/NAPA Gold have been excellent choices on the vehicles I've used 'em on, but haven't tried 'em on the Subie.
Oil? Might as well ask "blonde, redhead or brunette?" Whadya like and what's your budget? You'll get ALL kinds of opinions on both subjects, and I'll bet a dollar nobody can put some definitive numbers on what oil REALLY works best (outside of the labs, and the fact filters "Meet Mfr's Warrany Requirements" and oil meets the mfr's suggested API or other specs tells me they know far more about what's important than we're party to!) I've run MOST of my vehicles, Subie included, on Castrol GTX. The Subie's down now, but had 360k miles when it pulled to the side of the road the last time, and the failure wasn't oil related. The friend's Toyota truck mentioned above has been run on Chevron Supreme. My Camry, which had 214k "babied freeway" miles when I got it, lived on Pennzoil all that time, though I've switched it since.
And just for giggles, here are the general change intervals: my Subie, 3k mi; my Camry, 3750 mi; friend's Toy truck, 5k mi; my Toy truck (below), 3k mi. Filters were always changed at each oil change, too. Of course, I could toss a wrench in the works and describe the Subie a late friend had: it had 240k miles when she passed, and she put in whatever kind of oil the supermarket, drug store or 7-11 she was close to had whenever it was a coupla quarts low, and changed it religiously (every time it had been pitch black long enough she got tired of her girlfriend's hubby nagging her!) As far as I know, several years later that car's still going somewhere!
Mobil 1 is often suggested, if you want to spend the money for an unknown amount of "improvement." Not knocking it, I'm just thinking out loud "I know it won't hurt, but how much will it help?" Currently, I'm running Wal-Mart's Super Tech "Full Synthetic" (we're not going to argue the semantics of what IS or ISN'T truly "synthetic") in both the Camry and a Toyota pickup in an experiment: it's about the same price as GTX locally, so it's no big deal on cost. The Camry has shown NO measurable change, in oil consumption, fuel economy, etc., but the stuff does seem to be doing as most synthetics and cleaning things out a bit, judging by how quickly it becomes discolored compared to dino oil. The Toyota truck has shown a slight decrease in oil consumption. SLIGHT! (But that can't REALLY be attributed to the oil alone: the vehicle had 63k miles between 12-31-87 when it was purchased new, and 12-31-05 when I purchased it from the widow of the original owner. Typical "drive 2 miles, park 2 days" usage so many of our local senior citizens show. Since then, it's had about 12k miles, so it's easy to see how just blowing some of the spiders out COULD have an effect!) No significant change in fuel economy has been logged (and I keep GOOD records of that.) I recently pulled the valve cover and there IS evidence of varnish disappearing. Like the Camry, this truck lived on Pennzoil before I got it, and I would suggest both engines have a bit more varnish than my "Castrol engines" though not as much as "Valvoline engines" I've looked inside. Even so, I've seen no real differences in wear or oil consumption between the different brands.
So what it really boils down to is this: whether you go to Wally World and buy one of their house branded $2 filters and their house branded oil, either dino or synthetic, and change every 3k-4k miles or so, or spend all you want on a Mobil 1 filter and Mobil 1 oil (or other high dollar oil and filter) and change at WHATEVER intervals you feel appropriate (remembering that for a vehicle under warranty, you've GOT to follow mfr's recommendations no matter what you're running), or split the difference anywhere in between, I'll bet my other dollar you'll never be able to document any REAL statistically significant differences in performance well enough to state for certain, "Yup, it's definitely THAT oil that makes the difference!" It's just a matter of your "feel good quotient."
Of course that last statement will bring on all kinds of argument, so to quote the fellow (retired automotive engineer) who first introduced me to synthetic oils, bypass filtration and a coupla other things back in the mid-70s liked to say, "Show me your numbers, and we can talk!"
Rick
M.J. - 05 Aug 2006 09:10 GMT > Of course that last statement will bring on all kinds of argument, so to > quote the fellow (retired automotive engineer) who first introduced me > to synthetic oils, bypass filtration and a coupla other things back in > the mid-70s liked to say, "Show me your numbers, and we can talk!" Why numbers? What about oil itself.
I think the belief that all oils are essentially the same or similar in quality is total crap. There are some really bad oils out there! Most brand name oils are fine, but some little known brands can be really, I mean really bad.
When I change oil I usually collect it in transparent 1 gallon containers (old windshield-fluid plastic bottles). It sits in the garage for several months until I collect several gallons and dispose them together at my local Kragen store.
I have noticed that old oil after sitting for several weeks in these containers has a tendency to separate, that is, thick goo accumulates at the bottom while upper layer consists of less viscous but also extremely dirty old oil. This is normal, but the rate/speed and magnitude at which the separation occurs tells me something about the oils quality- its ability to keep junk in suspension.
Recently, I bought the cheapest oil at Walmart, 69cents per quart -black containers, I forget the name, some no name brand essentially. After making around 2000 miles on it and draining the stuff and letting it sit in the plastic container for several weeks I noticed something very unusual. The oil separated into to two distinct layers. Bottom 2/3 -rd layer was black and dirty, but the top 1/3rd layer became completely translucent as if the oil was brand new!
I think that were I to skim the top layer and refill the original oil bottles I could return it to Walmart and claim it was unused, and perhaps even get a refund :))))))
The thing was completely translucent, as if it never spent a minute in the engine! Good oil has the ability to keep dirt in suspension for very long periods of time. Bad oil does what this oil did, that is completely separated after several weeks only.
My advice is to avoid no name brand cheap oils. Although these supposedly pass the grade for oil specifications they can be inferior. Better stick with brand name products.
M.J.
M.J. - 05 Aug 2006 09:24 GMT > After making around 2000 miles on it and draining the stuff and letting > it sit in the plastic container for several weeks I noticed something very > unusual. The oil separated into to two distinct layers. Bottom 2/3 -rd > layer was black and dirty, but the top 1/3rd layer became completely > translucent as if the oil was brand new! Correction: Bottom 1/3 rd was dirty, top 2/3 rd became transparent and clean.
M.J.
> I think that were I to skim the top layer and refill the original oil > bottles [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > M.J. xfile - 05 Aug 2006 17:17 GMT Great replies, and thank you all!!
Makes me think that the best products are the ones I can get cool, Nascar-like stickers free with purchase, along with $6.95 shipping and handling!!
But seriously, I don't want to say money's no object, and I'm soley concerned with putting the "best" stuff in my cars (owns a 95 Honda Accord that just turned 100, 000). As it is now, the oil change places charge a minumum 20 bucks to start, which easliy covers the cost of oil and filter.
Maybe I feel more comfortable buying "name-brand" stuff. I wouldn't think to put the "cheap stuff" in my car. It's got to be cheap for a reason, and cheap is easy to make just that. For some reason, I don't think I'd go to Wal-Mart either, to buy their oil. I'd probably buy the Penzoil stuff on the shelf right next to it, but I can't tell ya why.....
So, maybe the eternal question will always be, what's the best?? Twenty bucks, easliy buys ya the expensive stuff, and not counting your time, and changing your oil every 3000 mile or so, we're talking $.00666 cents a mile....
Seems like pretty cheap insurance to me, or at least a little peace of mind....
Thoughts??
DJ (not related to Ricky Bobbie..)
bigjim@backpacker.com - 05 Aug 2006 18:50 GMT I was the same way too until the last oil change. Only mobil 1 or syntec for 70000 miles on my 04 OBW. Then I saw mobil 1 was $20 for 5 qts at Walmart. I noticed the Super tech full synthetic @ $12.88 for 5 qts. Picked up container and looked at bottle. API SM and ILAC GF4 the most recent and stringent standards. Figured I'd give it a try. Guess what -- couldnt tell the difference between more $$$$ oil and super-tech. I doubt walmart would mislabel product and face penalties. So guess what- I will probably continue to buy the supertech for the time I have my subaru. I'm confident I'll get 100-200k miles on it. When I get a new vehicle (eagerly awaiting the 07 4 door Wrangler and hope it comes in yellow). After break in I'll probably put full syn supertech in that. I dont know the longevity of Jeep as they are chrysler products not subaru but I doubt oil will accelerate demise. I got 145k on my 94 Trooper using syn-blend quaker state and syntec blend. I would probably still have it but it was totalled and oil had no role in its demise. I plan on using supertech in my lawn mower with honda engine when Ichange that too. I didnt get any nascar stickers w/purchase though!!!!
> Great replies, and thank you all!! > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > DJ (not related to Ricky Bobbie..) Carl 1 Lucky Texan - 05 Aug 2006 19:09 GMT > Great replies, and thank you all!! > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > DJ (not related to Ricky Bobbie..) since I don't recall it being mentioned in this thread - more reading and links to analysis,a forum, etc. can be found here; www.bobistheoilguy.com
fyi
Carl
 Signature to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)
Rick Courtright - 06 Aug 2006 00:35 GMT > long periods of time. Bad oil does what this oil did, that is > completely separated after several weeks only. Hi,
Your "experiment" proves two things to me:
a) gravity still works, pulling the solid particles, which are denser than the surrounding oil, toward the center of the earth; and
b) the wine snobs who "decant" their wines before drinking MAY be on to something!
But "completely separated after several weeks only"? Gimme a break! If your engine sits for several weeks at a time between starts, I suppose this could cause concern, though I'd also think you might have more serious issues to deal with given that type of use. However, the instant it's started and the oil is moving again, all that "settled" stuff is going to be "resuspended" again. Ever wondered WHY it's always suggested to change your oil HOT? (Hint: it's NOT pure sadism on the part of the mfrs simply so they can sit back and laugh as you burn your fingers!)
For giggles, I'd suggest you try your experiment again, with yet another type of oil. There are several "diesel" oils out there that also have gasoline ratings, the most common of which are Delo 400 from Chevron, Delvac from Mobil, and Rotella from Shell. AFAIK, all are still "dino" oils (though I understand they're currently refined from the higher grade base stocks from that family some prefer to term "synthetic"--I'll leave those discussions to the chemists), all MUST keep much more "crud" in suspension than regular gasoline rated oils by nature of their primary use, and ALL have passed the ONE MILLION MILE tests from the diesel engine mfrs. In other words, these are not "inferior" grade oils. Please try one of these and report back to us with your results!
> My advice is to avoid no name brand cheap oils. Although these > supposedly pass the grade for oil specifications they can be inferior. As the man said, "Show me your numbers, and we can talk!"
"Supposedly pass"? Let me assure you, boatloads of high priced lawyers don't understand "supposedly" in this application. You think for even a moment an oil company that produces a "good" product's gonna stand by idly while a competitor labels an "inferior" product as "good"? That's fantasy, my friend. They pass the spec, or they don't. Any "superiority" beyond that lies mainly in the land of advertising hype.
> Better stick with brand name products. Excellent advice! ;) Doing so will increase the dividends from my oil company stocks! They spend millions of dollars each year ensuring people think this way. I hope they keep it up!
But just TRY to get a "brand name" recommendation from an auto mfr if there's REALLY that much difference! Let us know what they tell you. You'll notice all they're concerned with is the appropriate API/ILSAC or other spec is met, and the proper weight is used. Beyond that, they leave you to your very own barstool to discuss the differences!
In the end, you're gonna buy whatever makes YOU feel best! Your engine can't tell you what that is... :D
Rick
M.J. - 06 Aug 2006 07:43 GMT > For giggles, I'd suggest you try your experiment again, with yet another > type of oil. There are several "diesel" oils out there that also have [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > diesel engine mfrs. In other words, these are not "inferior" grade oils. > Please try one of these and report back to us with your results! The other oils that I use are Shell Rotella 15-40, Mobil 1 15-50 and 10-30, and occasionally Valvoline straight 50 racing oil- these are the reference group against which I was comparing.
None of these has ever separated like I've decribed, no matter how long they've sat in the containers. I've had instances where oil would sit for nearly a year, or more (I don;t keep a record of this)- still no separation.
My take on this is that some oils are definetely better than others. The no name thing from Walmart is got to be _relatively_ much worse. Whether it is still acceptable for the engine, and whether it makes a big difference for engine longevity, etc.,... that I just don't know. I suspect it does.
I drive a Subaru Impreza '00 (35k miles), Chevy Corsica '89 (178k miles) and Hyundai Excel '90 (85k miles), all of which I am the original owner. I bought the cheap oil from Walmart for the old Corsica as it is aging and has little life left in it. After what I've experienced I'll keep feeding it Shell Rotella and Valvoline like I used to till the thing expires.
M.J.
Rick Courtright - 06 Aug 2006 07:55 GMT > None of these has ever separated like I've decribed, no matter how > long they've sat in the containers. I've had instances where oil would > sit for nearly a year, or more (I don;t keep a record of this)- still no > separation. > > My take on this is that some oils are definetely better than others. Hi,
Methinks thou needest to find the nearest oil recycling center, and hie thee to it more frequently if you have the stuff sitting around to look at for such a long time!
I guess now I'm gonna have to search the API, ILSAC, SAE and any other specs I can get a hold of to see if I can find a "sits on shelf for a year after use" spec! :D
In the mean time, have fun with your old oil...
Oh, BTW, that "no name" Wal-Mart stuff has frequently been acknowledged to be Quaker State in the past (could also be Pennzoil since they're now the same company.) IIRC, they were the first mfr to offer a 250k mile "no oil related failure" warranty on their oil. Sure, it was a marketing gimmick, but the fact they're willing to stick their necks out says something about how likely oil related failures really ARE (not!) So I'll venture a guess your old car will do just fine on Wally's "no name" stuff.
Rick
M.J. - 06 Aug 2006 08:40 GMT > Oh, BTW, that "no name" Wal-Mart stuff has frequently been acknowledged > to be Quaker State in the past (could also be Pennzoil since they're now [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I'll venture a guess your old car will do just fine on Wally's "no name" > stuff. Just to clarify, the 69 cents cheapo oil was from Walmart (bought at Walmart) but was not the Walmart generic brand found in blueish color bottles. It was some no name brand packaged in black color quarter bottles. They have it in several weights 10-40 was what I used.
You keep making fun of my observations but I think that there is some merit to them, that is they tell how good an oil additive package is at keeping dirt particles in suspension.
If you trade-in your car every couple of years this whole issue of oil is moot, but if you keep your cars for very long then such post-mortem analysis on old oil may be of some value (?). Most people dump their oil right away, I because I am lazy and hate getting my hands dirty, happen to store oil for prolonged periods of time. I think this gave me a somewhat unique perspective, I believe, is worth sharing with others.
M.J.
Rick Courtright - 06 Aug 2006 22:24 GMT > You keep making fun of my observations but I think that there > is some merit to them, that is they tell how good an oil additive > package is at keeping dirt particles in suspension. Hi,
Actually that "no-name" oil may prove to be more enviromentally friendly than the "better" ones. Why? You can siphon off the "clean oil" from the top and reuse it, thereby reducing the amount of "dirty" oil to be recycled. Gravity has done a better job for you than your filter!
Think I'm pulling your leg? Send a bit in for a professional oil analysis and see what they have to say. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the report comes back much better than you think! Of course, you can also just buy a LOT of 69 cent oil for the price of the lab test... and never really know, eh?
> If you trade-in your car every couple of years this whole issue of > oil is moot, but if you keep your cars for very long then such > post-mortem analysis on old oil may be of some value (?). Actually, I "plan" to run any of my cars a minimum of 200k miles. Sometimes that doesn't happen, other times I exceed it by quite a bit. I change my oil at regular intervals, take it to the recycling tank without really "looking at it", and I'm done with it. It held the "crud" in suspension long enough to get it out the engine, and therefore, I consider it "did its job." From there, who cares? My cars won't last any longer or die any sooner because I looked or didn't.
While I must admit your observations HAVE caused amusement, my point about making the judgment you did is this: visual observation is purely anecdotal. It fits right in with another popular "car talk" element, filtration. I'm sure you've seen one or more of the many "oil filter studies" that float about the Internet rather constantly, in which an untrained person with a cutoff wheel, a few extra dollars, a digital camera and some time to waste buys several brands of filters, cuts them up, measures the media and pronounces "this is a good one" or "this one is garbage." In light of these discoveries, I find it hard to believe the either the oil or filter manufacturers would bother spending so many zillions of dollars and man hours testing their products when determining "quality" is actually SO simple!
But maybe, just maybe, both the oil and filter mfrs are guided by the adage "There's more than meets the eye."
So again, if it makes you feel better, please have fun looking at your old oil! Or send it in for lab analysis, show us your numbers, and then we can talk!
Rick
M.J. - 08 Aug 2006 07:54 GMT > I change my oil at regular intervals, take it to the recycling tank > without really "looking at it", and I'm done with it. It held the "crud" > in suspension long enough to get it out the engine, How do you know it got ALL of the junk out, and not deposited most of it on your engine internals? Do numbers from oil analysis tell you that?
> ..... and therefore, I consider it "did its job." From there, who cares? > My cars won't last any longer or die any sooner because I looked or > didn't. Well, good for you, I guess.
M.J.
Rick Courtright - 08 Aug 2006 20:50 GMT > How do you know it got ALL of the junk out, and not deposited most > of it on your engine internals? Do numbers from oil analysis tell you that? Hi,
There is only ONE way to get ALL the crud out: tear down the engine and clean all the parts!
Short of that, there will ALWAYS be a certain amount of crud deposited somewhere in the engine. The places it's going to build up most, assuming regular oil changes, will usually be benign "nooks and crannies" where oil splashes and lands, then sits w/o being able to circulate quickly. With MOST engines, this is NOT a problem (however, there ARE some engine designs that are problematic, but they're problematic REGARDLESS of the oil being used. One case in point being the infamous Toyota "sludge engines." Not to single out Toyota--many other mfrs have had one or more of these "problem child" engines.) As a general rule, those places that have either pressurized oil flow, or a lot of oil flowing over them all the time, like return galleries, will show the least buildup of varnish or other crud. That's simple enough to see in a teardown.
What does oil analysis do for you in this regard? It simply tells you WHEN you need change your oil because it's reached the maximum level of contamination it can handle w/o causing "excessive" wear or damage to your engine. I say "excessive" because the engineers design a certain amount in when determining THEIR idea of the life expectancy of the engine. By changing oil and filters far more frequently than suggested by the owners manual, we MAY be able to cut the wear factor far below the design level. And then again, we may NOT. This is ONE of the reasons you will probably see far more of the "high mileage" engine reports (a quarter million miles or more is a number that sticks in my mind) are from guys who change at more frequent intervals. But the frequency of oil changes is only one of many factors in engine longevity, so it can't be pointed to as THE reason a particular engine lasted a certain number of miles.
So while the best way to achieve dependable oil analysis figures is probably to start with a "new" engine (crate new or rebuild new) and get a baseline figure, then have a series of oil analyses done at differing intervals to determine what the best "average" interval is, you can start at any point and at least have a baseline figure to use to estimate your engine's condition. At first, while the engine's wearing in, certain numbers will be high, then they'll usually stabilize, so you can tell how far from a given number you've "strayed" which CAN be a useful diagnostic tool if you're running a fleet. For the individual owner, it's probably more a "feel good" thing, since most of us aren't going to stop what we're doing and tear apart an engine when we see a "high" number for say, a bearing material, indicating bearing wear. We're going to watch the oil pressure gauge, and figure as long as it's ok, that bearing hasn't worn badly enough to worry about.
This is why I suggested you siphon the "clean" oil off your specimen and have it analyzed! Most of the contaminants that cause wear, the particulates, will have settled out and won't be present in that "clean" sample. Other items, such as metals, may or may not still be present. But the analysis figures will tell you "change" or "keep" even so.
Another thing oil analysis will do is tell you what you're LOOKING at is anything, or nothing, in the grand scheme of things. One of the things your oil does is "clean" in the sense it carries crud to the filter to be caught and held for disposal at the next change. One of the criteria the engineers look at is the "size" of the crud, measured in microns (1 micron = .000001 m = .000039 in), and there are ranges to be concerned with, ranges not to worry about. Most sources you can easily find suggest most of the engine wear is caused by particles in the 5-20 micron range. A majority of oil filters on the market do VERY well at removing crud above 20 microns, some do a pretty good job in the 10-20 micron range (brand and model CAN'T predict this! Only testing does--one catalog number may be excellent, another barely passable), few do so well below 10 microns or so. Why not? Engineers must balance flow and pressure against efficiency. They CAN filter out much tinier stuff, but then you'd be changing your filter every few hundred miles when it clogged, and who knows how long your engine would last w/ the reduced flow? So there's a balancing act involved.
Now to take this further, we have bypass filtration. A bypass filter CAN get out extremely tiny junk but it can't flow much. So I'm gonna illustrate why your "visual" estimation of how good a job your oil is doing can be flawed.
Years ago the Frantz people introduced bypass filtration to the masses with the "toilet paper" filter. The people selling these filters had a neat visual aid they used to show people how well their unit worked. They had a test bench set up with a container of clean oil, a pump, a full flow filter and a bypass filter. There was a switch to put the bypass filter in the loop or take it out.
They would start the machine, and you could watch the oil go thru the full flow filter and the bypass filter. Since it was clean oil, it wasn't an impressive sight at first. But then they would isolate the bypass filter, and introduce a bit of carbon black to the "clean" oil. Instantly it would turn jet black! And as it circulated thru the full flow filter, there was NO change in color. Then they'd turn on the bypass filter, and in a couple of minutes, the oil was back to being "clean" again.
So the first thing that would go thru one's mind as they watched this was "that oil is filthy" followed by "my oil filter's not doing much of a job" and, the salesman hoped, you finished with "I'll buy one!"
But as I mentioned before, there's more than meets the eye! Carbon black is LESS than 1 micron in size. So it's NOT a player in the wear equations! But it certainly makes the oil LOOK bad! And, using your visual "settling rate" estimation, it would stay "in suspension" for an extremely long time simply because the mass of the particles is so low it takes "forever" to settle out. Oil analysis would help you determine if you're looking at actual wear particles, or just "carbon black" type contaminants! One would dictate it's time to change your oil, the other is strictly "fuggedaboutit" territory.
So "you pays your money, you makes your choices, and you takes your chances!" IF you're blessed with the resources to take two IDENTICAL engines, and run them under IDENTICAL conditions side by side where the ONLY variable being changed is the oil being used, change intervals, filter, or some other item, you can come up with decent data on what's "best." Since the mfrs DO have these resources, and DON'T recommend any particular oils or filters as a result of their testing, there should be a lesson in there for us mere mortals who have to work hard just to have one or two vehicles to drive! Otherwise, we're just arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin... and that's why the man insisted on "Show me your numbers...!"
Rick
M.J. - 09 Aug 2006 01:40 GMT If a particular type oil is behaving substantially differently than other well known "good" oils after its has been drained out of the crankcase chances are it was also behaving differently when it was in the engine. Don't you agree?
The scientific process starts with observation, visual, and other. Findings collected this way are a basis for forming hypotheses. Hypotheses get proved or disproved by further testing.
So basically you are right, testing would be needed to establish for sure that the oil was no good. I should't have stateted that the oil IS bad, just that there are some preliminary indications that the oil MAY BE utter crap.
Personally, when I see something fishy, I decide to optimize, i.e. save on the cost of further testing and investigation, and I avoid the product altogether, aware that there is a probability that I may be wrong. You may call it I get spooked, or follow a "buyer beware" approach, or something. By the way I think I behave like the average consumer (?).
Just came from Walmart w few minutes ago, the oil brand is called Accel, and there are several viscosities- I used 10w-40.
M.J.
>> How do you know it got ALL of the junk out, and not deposited most >> of it on your engine internals? Do numbers from oil analysis tell you [quoted text clipped - 121 lines] > > Rick Rick Courtright - 09 Aug 2006 08:42 GMT > Just came from Walmart w few minutes ago, the oil brand is called > Accel, and there are several viscosities- I used 10w-40. Hi,
Does this oil have an API rating on the bottle? If so, does it have the SAME API rating as, say Mobil 1, which I think most people would agree is a "premium" quality oil?
If they both carry the same API rating, we know they both have met a MINIMUM set of test requirements, and are therefore equal at worst. Now, Mobil 1 MAY be far superior to Accel, but we CANNOT prove that without scientifically valid testing protocols. Lacking those, any supposed differences are anecdotal or advertising hype. So, you may OBSERVE that your engine appears to be cleaner w/ Mobil 1 than with Accel (or any other.) You then form your hypothesis that M-1 is the better oil. Now the process DEMANDS proper testing to establish the validity of your hypothesis. On this we agree.
Where we disagree is that you've initially tried to establish your hypothesis (which MAY very well be valid, but we don't know!) as a basis to describe one product as "crap" (or otherwise inferior) without benefit of testing. My point has been, and remains, that the manufacturers HAVE done the testing, and haven't found enough significant difference to recommend one brand over another, AS LONG AS each brand carries the recommended rating. I'm sure they've observed the same things you have, but nobody's "shown us the numbers" to show that observation carries much weight, if any, within the parameters they feel are important.
A last note on "observations": the behavior of your oil outside of the engine cannot be correlated to its behavior inside on its face. We could come up with all kinds of scenarios, some of which would support your idea, some of which would not. One, for example, that would not might run like this:
We have two otherwise identical cars, and we fill one with 10W-40, the other with straight 40 wt. We also have two extra quarts of each the 10W-40 and the straight 40 weight. We put one quart of each in the regrigerator at, let's say, 35 deg F, for an hour, the other quart of each goes outside and sits in the sun for an hour, and we send the cars out to run 70 mph for that same hour. The average daily temperature this time of year in my neighborhood is very close to 100 deg F. At the end of the hour, we pour a little of each oil out and watch how easily it flows. There is going to be a definite advantage to the multigrade that came out of the fridge. There's probably also even a slight bit of "advantage" in favor of the multi-grade that sat in the sun, though it will be lesser. While we're observing that, the two cars come in and we drain both engines simultaneously. Compare the behavior of the oils in the engines to those sitting in the bottles. Notice a difference? We could make up these scenarios all day. Again, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
So "You pays your money and you makes your choices" on whatever makes YOU happy, confident, whatever. You're free to think "my choice is best because...." That's one of the benefits of having a competitive market place to choose from, and that's about the last I care to say on this.
Rick
S - 08 Aug 2006 23:50 GMT Hi DJ!
>Can anyone give me any tips or things to look out for when I do the oil >change? Also, any recommendations on after market filters and oil >products would be great! Basically, just do it. It helps to be able to get under the car. 17mm socket fits the drain plug, and I use a large pair of Channel-loc pliers to get the filter. 4 bolts hold the splash guard in place, plus a couple pesky plastic fasteners at the upper rear corners. Use a small flat screwdriver to gently lift the center pin ~1/4 inch, and then pull the whole thing out. It's easier the second time . . . I like Castrol GTX in 10W30, and change filters every other oil change, but I change oil at 3-4K mile intervals. I use either an OEM filter, the "upgraded" Fram item, or, if I can find 'em, Purolator "Pure-One" filters. Takes 4 quarts w/o filter change, 4 1/2 with. (This for the SOHC motor; I _think_ the DOHC is the same, but ???)
ByeBye! S.
Steve Jernigan KG0MB Laboratory Manager Microelectronics Research University of Colorado (719) 262-3101
Cam Penner - 09 Aug 2006 00:24 GMT > Hi DJ! > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Basically, just do it. It helps to be able to get under the car. 17mm If you jack the car up, PUT SOME BLOCKS OR AXLE STANDS UNDER IT before YOU go under it. Don't die doing an oil change.
I've had some success at poking a hole in the filter with a screwdriver and letting that drain before unscrewing it. It at least changed HOW the oil spills onto my arm. I use a Fumoto drain valve - and love it.
 Signature Cam '02 Impreza RS
Rick Courtright - 09 Aug 2006 07:03 GMT > I've had some success at poking a hole in the filter with a > screwdriver and letting that drain before unscrewing it. > It at least changed HOW the oil spills onto my arm. I use Hi,
I've used the screwdriver trick, or a nail thru the end of the filter, and as you said, you're mostly redirecting which part of your arm gets burned! Another trick I've used that ~sometimes~ makes life painless is to break the oil filter loose about one full turn BEFORE opening your drain valve--not quite enough for oil to start leaking. Take off the oil filler cap so you get lots of air thru the engine, then open the drain valve. Once the oil's out of the sump and has drained a few minutes, remove the filter. About half the time I can get the filter off w/o even spilling a drop. The other half the time there's a little driposis, but not bad. I don't know why it's a hit or miss proposition unless the anti-drainback valve sometimes does a better job than other times?
It might be worth a try to see how it works on your engine!
Rick
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