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Car Forum / Subaru Cars / January 2007

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None of these are Subies....

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JohnO - 18 Jan 2007 20:03 GMT
Can you imagine being on this road?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPE8vL5hlFA

-John O
Nick Danger - 19 Jan 2007 04:07 GMT
> Can you imagine being on this road?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPE8vL5hlFA

What amazes me is that there were people standing around out on the road. If
I were there, I would have been up on the rooftop where the guy with the
video camera was. I wonder how long it took before the fire truck got
nailed.
I've been in ice storms where the salt/sand spreaders had to drive in
reverse. Not even a Subaru with studded snow tires can get you through that
stuff. I just watched the show from a safe distance.
aschlemm@comcast.net - 19 Jan 2007 06:08 GMT
> Can you imagine being on this road?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPE8vL5hlFA
>
> -John O

If the road was sheeted over with ice I don't think having an AWD Subaru
would have helped much. I'm over on the eastside outside Seattle and with
the ice I saw a Subaru go spinning down an icy covered road. In the first
snow we had in the Seattle area back in November I lost count though of the
number of RWD BMWs and Mercedes which littered the roadside.

I have a Legacy sedan and I took it slow and easy with all of the ice around
Seattle. AWD helps but it doesn't allow me to defy the laws of physics when
it comes to driving and stopping in snowy or icy conditions.

Tony

Signature

Anthony Schlemmer
aschlemm@comcast.net

strchild - 19 Jan 2007 10:16 GMT
Sad, but I live in the Portland metro area, and I saw two subies head on
with each other.  )-;  They are great in the snow and ice, but aren't magic
machines able to turn the Californian "I don't know how to 4WD but I have
one" driver into a good driver (no offense to the good Cali drivers).  I saw
way too much overconfidence out there from our fellow Soob drivers.  I vote
for better mass transit, as nobody here knows how to drive very well!  Oh,
and can some parents get their kids out of the streets where cars are still
driving as their sleds don't mix well with cars!

~Brian

>> Can you imagine being on this road?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Tony
Jim Stewart - 19 Jan 2007 18:02 GMT
> Sad, but I live in the Portland metro area, and I saw two subies head on
> with each other.  )-;  They are great in the snow and ice, but aren't magic
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> and can some parents get their kids out of the streets where cars are still
> driving as their sleds don't mix well with cars!

Well said Brian.

Engineering can't repeal the laws of physics.
isquat@gmail.com - 19 Jan 2007 22:11 GMT
> Sad, but I live in the Portland metro area, and I saw two subies head on
> with each other.  )-;  They are great in the snow and ice, but aren't magic
> machines able to turn the Californian "I don't know how to 4WD but I have
> one" driver into a good driver (no offense to the good Cali drivers).  I saw
> way too much overconfidence out there from our fellow Soob drivers.  I vote

A question from a clueless californian: do dedicated studless snow
tires help
on ice? Can't stud the tires here. Besides a californian with studs
would
look stupid, don't you think?
strchild - 19 Jan 2007 22:49 GMT
In my experience, I can't stand studded snow tires.  Noisy, and really only
beneficial on ice, but I fail to see just how beneficial, as if you must
drive under those conditions you might just as well chain up, plus
deceptively slippery on regular and wet pavement,.  I'm sure others have
their own opinion, but I feel the trade-offs outweigh the benefits, plus how
often are they needed in this area?  Only road I couldn't traverse this last
bit of ice and snow with my all-season tires, dedicated studs would have
been equally as useless.  Chains might have gotten me up, but it's hard to
say if they would have gotten me down again, or let me slide off the road.

Just my opinion though.  (-;

~Brian

>> Sad, but I live in the Portland metro area, and I saw two subies head on
>> with each other.  )-;  They are great in the snow and ice, but aren't
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> would
> look stupid, don't you think?
y_p_w - 19 Jan 2007 23:29 GMT
> In my experience, I can't stand studded snow tires.  Noisy, and really only
> beneficial on ice, but I fail to see just how beneficial, as if you must
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> been equally as useless.  Chains might have gotten me up, but it's hard to
> say if they would have gotten me down again, or let me slide off the road.

I bought a bag of kitty litter the last time I was up in the Sierras,
just in case I needed it to get myself or anyone moving.  Supposedly
works wonders but then again, I don't think I can sprinkle it for
an entire 6 mile trip.

I've driven in the snow and ice.  From the video, it looked like
everyone gave way too much gas and got enough traction to get
momentum, but not enough to control the car.  I learned quickly
that you need to brake gently (and very early) the first time I
skidded in a parking lot in South Lake Tahoe.  Luckily it was just
five feet and I got a better feel for steering braking on ice.
strchild - 19 Jan 2007 23:53 GMT
You get kinda used to the ice when you do a 40 mile paper route in it at
1000' elevation and up.  (-;  1st gear is your friend, works a bit like
anti-lock breaks.  It's funny to watch your spedometer bottom out instantly
when your front tires lock up and slide.  Can kinda use it as an indicator
for slippage, at which point, you either let off the breaks, or well, go
wherever the car is going to go, and that's probably not where you're
steering.  Course, I'm not talking anti-lock breaks so, don't just take my
word for it, learn how your own car will react in the slick conditions
before you go out to play.  I learned early during the first three months I
was driving, in a heavy, Plymouth Volarie, with a nice 318 V8 and rear wheel
drive.  Amazing how much speed you pick up, going down a steep, iced over
hill, but I never did wreck the thing for the bad weather.  (-;

I agree about the video.  I say, try 1st gear, and noooooo gas at all.
Getting somewhere late is better than wrecking the car and not getting
anywhere.  Wonder how many of those vehicles had anti-lock breaks, but then
how well do wheels not lock-up when they are sliding sideways?  (-;

~Brian

>> In my experience, I can't stand studded snow tires.  Noisy, and really
>> only
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> skidded in a parking lot in South Lake Tahoe.  Luckily it was just
> five feet and I got a better feel for steering braking on ice.
KLS - 20 Jan 2007 00:33 GMT
>I've driven in the snow and ice.  From the video, it looked like
>everyone gave way too much gas and got enough traction to get
>momentum, but not enough to control the car.  I learned quickly
>that you need to brake gently (and very early) the first time I
>skidded in a parking lot in South Lake Tahoe.  Luckily it was just
>five feet and I got a better feel for steering braking on ice.

I suspect most of these sliding idiots also were standing on their
brake pedals, which doesn't help improve traction once it's lost.
S - 24 Jan 2007 23:25 GMT
Hi Brian, All!

>In my experience, I can't stand studded snow tires.  Noisy, and really only
>beneficial on ice, but I fail to see just how beneficial, as if you must
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>been equally as useless.  Chains might have gotten me up, but it's hard to
>say if they would have gotten me down again, or let me slide off the road.

I run my old GL in a "studded-tire" class, in our winter ice
rally-cross series. They make a huge difference, probably 15- 20
seconds on a 90-100 second course, vs the "bare-tire" guys on fresh
Blizzaks. They enable a savvy driver to start, initiate turns, and
(most importantly) stop with authority. Chains are probably marginally
better on ice (if you can stand the vibration), but where they really
shine is in deep snow (or mud, FWIW). Dedicated ice tires are quite
good when new, but still not as positive as studs. Once the treated
rubber is gone, they are no better than regular all-seasons

Nothing will do much good, however, if the driver doesn't know how to
work the car (all too common, alas); simply mashing harder on the
brake pedal during a slide just isn't gonna help matters.

And you're quite right; studs, especially fresh ones, do reduce the
tires ultimate grip somewhat on dry pavement. One more factor for the
equation. I'm sure chains have the same effect, but with chains
mounted, you're unlikely to go fast enough for it to be a concern.

I will also note that the Subaru ABS system, at least as found on my
wife's Forester, and my older Legacy, doesn't work worth a damn when
faced with glossy ice. Studded tires make it work much better; perhaps
because they do offer at least _some_  grip to work with.

I drive the all-season equipped Legacy most of the time, and the
studded GL on bad days. Chains on all four when the snow gets deep,
the plow hasn't been around, and there's no beer in the fridge :-) The
missus beats me up until I put the studded tires on her Forry in the
fall, and she won't let me take 'em off until the snow season is well
past in the spring.

ByeBye! S.

PS: Last event, we had someone show up in an "exhibition class" WRX
rally car set up with screws in his tires, similar to the setup the
motorcycle ice racers use. Couldn't believe how fast he was going, and
with this HUGE grin . . . obviously having  _way_ too much fun.

Next season . . .  :-)

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101
y_p_w - 25 Jan 2007 01:08 GMT
> I will also note that the Subaru ABS system, at least as found on my
> wife's Forester, and my older Legacy, doesn't work worth a damn when
> faced with glossy ice. Studded tires make it work much better; perhaps
> because they do offer at least _some_  grip to work with.

I wasn't braking hard, but I found that ABS just didn't do that much
when I started sliding in snow-covered ice.  In dry/wet conditions,
I've never really felt ABS engaging except for panic braking - usually
with pedal to the floor.

> I drive the all-season equipped Legacy most of the time, and the
> studded GL on bad days. Chains on all four when the snow gets deep,
> the plow hasn't been around, and there's no beer in the fridge :-) The
> missus beats me up until I put the studded tires on her Forry in the
> fall, and she won't let me take 'em off until the snow season is well
> past in the spring.

Well - what kind of chains do you use?  I hear the diagonal type
chains work better and look to be easier to install with the three
connection points (and final connection on the top where there
should be more room to work with).  Frankly it looks like the
same connection setup could be applied to a ladder chain.

I went through my 2004 WRX manual, and it recommends only
installing chains on the front.  However - I've read enough about
winter driving to see recommendations that chains in front on an
AWD/4WD vehicle could lead to a spinout if the rear tires break
loose and the front tires have traction.

You're certainly right about speed and chains.  I was driving up
I-80 to Reno last winter.  Some nuts were driving 40 MPH in
falling snow with chains on; they were lucky they didn't come
off.  I've been around the Lake Tahoe area and see the odd chain
here or there that ran away from its owner.  Not before damaging
a wheel well, tire, and/or paint job, no doubt.
S - 26 Jan 2007 00:09 GMT
Hi YPW, All!

>I wasn't braking hard, but I found that ABS just didn't do that much
>when I started sliding in snow-covered ice.  In dry/wet conditions,
>I've never really felt ABS engaging except for panic braking - usually
>with pedal to the floor.

The ABS system, as someone here noted, is supposed to pulse the
brakes, rather than simply locking the wheel(s), as would be the case
in a foot-to-the-floor panic stop situation for most drivers. The ABS
on my pops newer Caddy does just this (I tried it out on an icy patch
when he first got it . . .). It really does help maintain control of
the car; you don't really _stop_ any faster, but you maintain steering
control for the most part. In a similar situation, the Subaru ABS
doesn't seem to pulse the brakes, rather you get more of a klunk-slide
klunk-klunk-slide sort of response, as the wheels lock and release.
I'm guessing that the ABS is mis-intrepreting the sensor inputs under
very low traction situations. At least on the Forester. having studded
tires seems to alleviate this problem, and they function about the
same as they would on pavement. I have also observed that ABS will
often mis-behave on dirt/gravel roads. I've observed a dramatic
reduction in braking response when it engages. Admittedly, I was going
considerably faster than would be considered normal and/or sane at the
time, but it was nowhere near as disconcerting on gravel as it is on
ice.

If you _haven't_ experienced the ABS effect, I would advise that you
try it out. Find a large empty parking lot. Run your car up to 35-40
MPH, and tromp on the brake pedal (do check the rear-view mirror, just
in case . . .). You should both hear and feel a deep kinda HUMMM when
the ABS kicks in. Try it again, and simultaneously work the steering,
as if you were swerving to avoid an obstacle. You should be able to
pretty much put your car where you want. Try the same thing with a
non-ABS car to see the difference, but be sure there isn't anything in
your line-of-fire, cause you're gonna slide, maybe even spin. Er, Um,
_don't_ try this with your basic SUV; very few passenger cars will
even try to flip in a slide/spin on flat unobstructed pavement, an SUV
is an entirely different thing, tho, and you might find yourself
looking at things from an entirely different perspective. Now try it
again when the parking lot has ice. You will note some differences in
the way your car responds.

Basic stuff. Lest you think this is silly, I can assure you that a
driving school will put you thru this very sort of manoeuvre. In any
event, you will feel better about your car, knowing what it feels like
to slide and recover.

FWIW, all of our kids were required to put in a season of autocross
after getting their license. Learning to control a car "on the edge"
simply makes you a better driver. For all too many out there, their
first experience of having their car get loose in a turn, or slide as
a result of too much brake pedal, is in the few seconds before they
hit something . . .

Couple years back, my usual autocross car (an MR2) was down, and I was
prepping my Legacy to go to an event just for fun . . . My wife:
"But _that's_ not a race car . . ."
"Sweetheart, they're _all_ race cars . . ." :-D
Autocross. Really, most highly recommended, and huge fun as well.
Check out the SCCA web site for details, and to find an event near
you.

>Well - what kind of chains do you use?  I hear the diagonal type
>chains work better and look to be easier to install with the three
>connection points (and final connection on the top where there
>should be more room to work with).  Frankly it looks like the
>same connection setup could be applied to a ladder chain.

Regular old "chains"; ladder-chains, I guess, not the cable-chains in
any event. And yep, they sure are a pain in the a__ to put on; almost
as bad to take off. Not to mention that usually by the time you decide
you want 'em, you're stuck in knee-deep snow, your wheel-wells are
packed with muddy slush, and you're wearing your goin'-to-work
clothes.

So now you're gonna get down on your knees and mount those chains, eh?
Easier said than done; those of you who have been there know _exactly_
what I'm talking about. Those who haven't . . . I recommend learning
how on a warm, dry afternoon in the privacy of your driveway. And send
the kids out to play lest they pick up some new and colorful language!

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101
y_p_w - 26 Jan 2007 00:44 GMT
> Hi YPW, All!
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> packed with muddy slush, and you're wearing your goin'-to-work
> clothes.

I've been looking into getting newer chains.  "Ladder" or "radial" vs
"diagonal" or "Z" designs are really independent of the type of
material
used.  The cable-type chains are the ones made of steel cable and
little crimped on rollers on the traction portion of the chains.  The
standard link style chains are of course made of chain links (duh).

The following link is for five different styles of chains: a
ladder-type
using links, a ladder-type with cable/rollers, a diagonal type with
cable/rollers (and a rubber chain tightener), and two diamond-types
using links.

<http://www.tirechain.com/P205-55R-16.htm>

Security Chain has several different variations.

<http://www.scc-chain.com/Traction%20Pages/Trac_prod_choice.html>

> So now you're gonna get down on your knees and mount those chains, eh?
> Easier said than done; those of you who have been there know _exactly_
> what I'm talking about. Those who haven't . . . I recommend learning
> how on a warm, dry afternoon in the privacy of your driveway. And send
> the kids out to play lest they pick up some new and colorful language!

I tried and gave up.  The strange thing is that the instructions with
my
cable chains recommend draping them over the top of the tire, then
attaching them at the bottom.  I tried in my garage and it ain't easy.
The hard part seems to be getting the hands around the back.  Of
course it's supposed to be tightened a bit after driving a few feet.
I've got the common Cobra Tire Chain from Quality Chain.

<http://www.qualitychaincorp.com/pdfs/passenger_install.PDF>

More traditional instructions (I've seen on the web) for the ladder
type
chains is to lay them down, drive over them, connect the attachments
(which are no longer at the bottom), drive a few feet, and tighten.
This
seems easier for some reason if I don't try and tighten them at the
bottom.  I would even venture to guess that it would be even easier
to do this with the tires jacked up in a garage, before venturing out
into the snow.  ;-)
Carl 1 Lucky Texan - 26 Jan 2007 04:52 GMT
>>Hi YPW, All!
>>
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> to do this with the tires jacked up in a garage, before venturing out
> into the snow.  ;-)

http://www.spikes-spiders.com/

Carl

Signature

to reply, change  ( .not)  to  ( .net)

y_p_w - 26 Jan 2007 17:24 GMT
> I tried and gave up.  The strange thing is that the instructions
> with my cable chains recommend draping them over the top of the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> <http://www.qualitychaincorp.com/pdfs/passenger_install.PDF>

I tried it again last night.  I could get the stock #
1034 Cobra cable chain to 6 bushings on each side on some
nearly brand new 205/55R16 tires.  I tried pulling in one
more bushing into the outside keyhole/endhook but couldn't
get it any tighter.  I didn't try driving it, which the
instructions suggest may be needed to tighten any further.
At that point, it still felt loose and I don't think I
would have been comfortable driving with them on.

I see they also sell a "spider adjuster" that seems to be
6 rubber arms (joined at the center) with hooks to take up
the slack.  The catalog picture even shows the chain with
one of these adjusters installed.  I don't know where to
find them, but maybe I can located them up in the Sierras
when I go on vacation.  While I suppose they aren't needed
if you can get the side cables tight, it would really help
for someone like me who doesn't particularly like putting
on chains.  It also seems to get the chains on tight w/o
making them impossible to take off later.

<http://www.qualitychaincorp.com/detail.phtml?sku=1034>
http://www.qualitychaincorp.com/accessories.php?s=3&a=misc_parts&sku=0212

I looked up a few more assorted installation instructions
for ladder type chains.  Each manufacturer seems to have
a slightly different take, along with slightly different
setups.  However - one thing that did make sense was an
instruction to turn the tires (with the steering wheel)
to make it easier to reach the inside connector.

Of course I am driving a Subaru, and I've been waved past
every California chain checkpoint I've gone through so
far.  I have the chains because I'm required to carry at
least a pair going through chain control areas.

BTW - I know my owner's manual don't recommend it, but
has anyone tried out four chains in a Subaru?  I keep
on hearing that chains on the front are a recipe for
spinning out if all four wheels are driven.
y_p_w - 28 Jan 2007 17:32 GMT
>>Well - what kind of chains do you use?  I hear the diagonal type
>>chains work better and look to be easier to install with the three
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> how on a warm, dry afternoon in the privacy of your driveway. And send
> the kids out to play lest they pick up some new and colorful language!

I looked some of the different offerings.  Several chain
manufacturers sell and recommend using chain tighteners.
The company that makes my chains even shows them being used.

<http://www.qualitychaincorp.com/detail.phtml?sku=1034>

I tried getting them on tight without adjusters, and really
couldn't.  However - when I just pulled down on the side
cable it seemed to take up the slack.  I asked in another
forum, and bungee cords were suggested instead of the
purpose-built chain adjusters.

Some of the newer cables don't even have any adjustment to
them.  They have a huge slack if just attached via the
metal connectors.  They have to be tightened with rubber
chain adjusters that are included.  One supposed benefit
is that they have to be driven and periodically checked,
because the tighteners always ensure that they're tight.

<http://www.scc-chain.com/Traction%20Pages/Trac_SGZ.html>
strchild - 25 Jan 2007 02:35 GMT
> Hi Brian, All!
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> work the car (all too common, alas); simply mashing harder on the
> brake pedal during a slide just isn't gonna help matters.

Sounds like an absolute blast, but I don't really wanna drive six hours in a
winter ready car to find such a sporting event.  But I might, if they had
one around here...  I'm not familiar with the motorcycle ice racing, but the
screws in the tires sound hilarious.  (-;  Would love to do up a set for my
XT6, as I ain't got no WRX, but probably wouldn't, as I would rather muck up
my Impreza since it seems easier to get replacement parts for.

>I will also note that the Subaru ABS system, at least as found on my
>wife's Forester, and my older Legacy, doesn't work worth a damn when
>faced with glossy ice. Studded tires make it work much better; perhaps
>because they do offer at least _some_  grip to work with.

Never driven a car with anti-lock breaks before.  I was under the impression
they always function when breaking.  Is that not the case?

One handy thing I've noticed, when my front wheels begin to slip, the spedo
dives to zip, nomatter the speed I'm still moving forward.  Helps me keep my
downshifting proportional to my breaking when I can't hear the tires
slipping or the car going off of center, so I don't pull something stupid
and wind up like the folks in the videos.  ... and no, I don't ignore the
road ahead to watch the spedo, hehe.  But it's nice to have an idea what the
car is doing and when.  (-;

~Brian
y_p_w - 25 Jan 2007 06:11 GMT
>>I will also note that the Subaru ABS system, at least as found on my
>>wife's Forester, and my older Legacy, doesn't work worth a damn when
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> under the impression they always function when breaking.
> Is that not the case?

"Brakes" and "braking", please.  I don't get worked up over
most spelling errors or typos, but that's the one common
spelling error that drives me nuts.  Now that I'm off that
soapbox......

Anti-lock braking systems don't engage every time the brakes
are used.  They sense when the wheels have locked up while
the brakes are engaged, and repeatedly apply and release
pressure about 10 times a second (intervals depend on the
individual system).  Slamming the brakes on dry pavement will
usually activate ABS.  ABS might engage under less brake
pedal force if the pavement is wet.  If ABS engages, the
driver will feel a rapid pulsation on the brake pedal as
well as a loud groaning noise from the ABS pump cycling.
When it doesn't engage, the braking system should feel just
like any other non ABS brake system.
strchild - 25 Jan 2007 09:43 GMT
>>>I will also note that the Subaru ABS system, at least as found on my
>>>wife's Forester, and my older Legacy, doesn't work worth a damn when
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> spelling error that drives me nuts.  Now that I'm off that
> soapbox......

Sorry, my apologies.  The spelling didn't dawn on me until you pointed it
out!  (-;

Thanks for the info about the anti-lock "brakes"!  Sounds somewhat
distracting to me, but I suppose they do their job, and they're good for the
pedal mashers out there.

~Brian
Ed - 25 Jan 2007 13:11 GMT
> Thanks for the info about the anti-lock "brakes"!  Sounds somewhat
> distracting to me, but I suppose they do their job, and they're good for the
> pedal mashers out there.

And if you have ABS and try to pump the pedal when you hit slick
conditions is a recipe for a spin.
CompUser - 25 Jan 2007 15:12 GMT
In article <w02uh.35711$QU1.9894
@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net>,
edwardbruce@sbcglobal.net says...

> And if you have ABS and try to pump the pedal when you hit slick
> conditions is a recipe for a spin.

Why is that?
Ed - 25 Jan 2007 17:05 GMT
> In article <w02uh.35711$QU1.9894
> @newssvr22.news.prodigy.net>,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Why is that?

I was listening to a guy talking about this on the radio last weekend.
He grew up in the Northeast and learned how to drive 4WD and pumping his
brakes. He now lives in Colorado and was driving with the first car he
has ever owned with AWD, traction control, and ABS. He found out that by
pumping his brakes all he did was fight the traction and ABS systems and
wound up going into a slow spin...

Why? I'm guessing he wound up causing the traction control system to
speed up the wheels on one side and slow 'em down on the other.
nobody > - 26 Jan 2007 00:58 GMT
>>>> I will also note that the Subaru ABS system, at least as found on my
>>>> wife's Forester, and my older Legacy, doesn't work worth a damn when
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> ~Brian

I used to believe my foot was more educated than the damned ABS was,
especially after hitting the trip point on  the '95 Chev van I drive at
work. (This was back in the era when GM had to put a videotape in the
jockeybox explaining ABS. I could either featherfoot the pedal or pump
it as conditions dictated.. lots of pre-ABS ice experience.

Either I'm losing my touch or ABS has gotten much better. It kicked in
on my '00 OBWL on ice a couple of weeks ago and (other than the "ABS
Surprise") actually allowed some steering control.  I later found an
empty parking lot and "let it all hang out" with and without ABS.. I was
impressed!
isquat@gmail.com - 26 Jan 2007 01:32 GMT
> especially after hitting the trip point on  the '95 Chev van I drive at
> work. (This was back in the era when GM had to put a videotape in the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> empty parking lot and "let it all hang out" with and without ABS.. I was
> impressed!

Just remember to test it daily so that it does not go bad from disuse.
What's L in OBWL?
Oscar_Lives - 26 Jan 2007 02:36 GMT
>> especially after hitting the trip point on  the '95 Chev van I drive at
>> work. (This was back in the era when GM had to put a videotape in the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Just remember to test it daily so that it does not go bad from disuse.
> What's L in OBWL?

LL Bean Edition?
nobody > - 26 Jan 2007 03:13 GMT
>>> especially after hitting the trip point on  the '95 Chev van I drive at
>>> work. (This was back in the era when GM had to put a videotape in the
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> LL Bean Edition?

"Limited". They didn't have the LL Bean back then. Basically an OB with
leather seats and twin moonroofs. It also has a limited slip rear..
that's worth it.
y_p_w - 26 Jan 2007 04:44 GMT
>>especially after hitting the trip point on  the '95 Chev van I drive at
>>work. (This was back in the era when GM had to put a videotape in the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Just remember to test it daily so that it does not go bad from disuse.
> What's L in OBWL?

Are you serious or just kidding?

ABS isn't really meant for anything but emergency stopping.
"Disuse" doesn't really matter as ABS pumps always cycle
at startup and can cycle when driving.
y_p_w - 19 Jan 2007 23:03 GMT
> > Sad, but I live in the Portland metro area, and I saw two subies head on
> > with each other.  )-;  They are great in the snow and ice, but aren't magic
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> tires help on ice? Can't stud the tires here. Besides a californian with
> studs would look stupid, don't you think?

First thing - studded tires aren't legal in California.  I'm pretty
sure true studless snow tires will make things better but don't
perform miracles.  The Tire Rack did some testing on an ice rink with
everything from a true studless ice tire to a summer tire that was
downright scary.  It's still not going to make a performance car
handle as well as a land yacht in dry conditions.  There needs to
be a good deal of respect that winter conditions are still challenging,
even with dedicated winter tires.  What really should work well on
ice are the "Z" type chains.  Unlike radial chains, they're designed
such that part of the chain is contacting the surface at all times.
People still need to drive slowly.

<http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=80>

BTW - I heard studs aren't legal in Minnesota.  Go fig.
y_p_w - 26 Jan 2007 17:09 GMT
>>>Sad, but I live in the Portland metro area, and I saw two subies head on
>>>with each other.  )-;  They are great in the snow and ice, but aren't magic
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> First thing - studded tires aren't legal in California.

I thought studs were illegal in California because they chew
up pavement, but I found the following when researching chain
control requirements (apologies for the bad info):

<http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc27454.htm>

"Protuberances on Tires: Exceptions

27454.   No tire on any vehicle upon any highway shall have
on its periphery any block, stud, flange, cleat, ridge, bead,
or any other protuberance of metal or wood that projects
beyond the tread of the traction surface of the tire.

This section does not apply to any of the following:

(e) Pneumatic tires containing metal-type studs of tungsten
carbide or other suitable material that are so inserted or
constructed that under no conditions will the number of
studs or the percentage of metal in contact with the roadway
exceed 3 percent of the total tire area in contact with the
roadway, between November 1 and April 30 of each year. The
commissioner, after consultation with the Department of
Transportation, may extend the period during which studded
pneumatic tires may be used in any area of the state for
the protection of the public because of adverse weather
conditions."

** ** **

However - studded tires don't count as "traction control
devices".  Anyone with studded snow tires would still
need to carry chains in chain control areas and maybe
even install them.

<http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/traffops/trucks/trucksize/chains.htm#studded>

"If I have studded snow tires, do I need to carry chains?

Yes. Studded snow tires are not considered tire traction
devices and may not be used in lieu of chains."
nobody > - 20 Jan 2007 01:38 GMT
>> Sad, but I live in the Portland metro area, and I saw two subies head on
>> with each other.  )-;  They are great in the snow and ice, but aren't magic
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> tires help
> on ice? Can't stud the tires here.

No real help with dedicated ice treads, they do grip a 'little' bit
better on ice but it wouldn't have helped in the stuff in that video.

The only solution there would have been chains on all 4 corners and even
then it would have been dicey. There's no way to predict what the idjits
are going to do, witness the silver Lexus(?) SUV showing their foot into
it for a 7(+) point carom shot.

> Besides a californian with studs
> would look stupid, don't you think?

Depends on which leather bar you go to, 'big boy' ;}
tom klein - 26 Jan 2007 08:36 GMT
> Can you imagine being on this road?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPE8vL5hlFA
>
> -John O

as a wise man once pointed out, cars have always had 4-wheel BRAKES -
the addition of 4-wheel DRIVE doesn't make them stop any better.

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y_p_w - 28 Jan 2007 17:12 GMT
>> Can you imagine being on this road?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> as a wise man once pointed out, cars have always had 4-wheel BRAKES -
> the addition of 4-wheel DRIVE doesn't make them stop any better.

Are you sure.  I remember some bicycles from my childhood
only had rear coaster brakes.  I'm sure there might have
been some early cars that only had two wheel braking.  Did
Gottlieb Daimler's first three wheeler even have brakes?

BTW - Any experienced bicyclist can stop with the front
brakes alone.  As with cars, the front brakes are far
more effective, as the weight transfers to the front
tire.  It just takes some technique, including leaning
the weight backwards, and a bit of balance.
 
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