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Car Forum / Subaru Cars / August 2007

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must rotor be resurfaced when brake pads is replaced?

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peter - 15 Jun 2007 20:04 GMT
When the brake pads wears out for the first time (around 38K miles), must
you resurface the rotor when you replace the pads?
I called some shops, some say yes, some say depends.

What happens if the rotor has minor grooves and new pads are installed
without resurfacing the rotor?

Do the front brake usually wear out before the rear, or are they designed to
wear out about the same time?

The car is a 2002 wrx if it matters.
DK - 16 Jun 2007 00:09 GMT
>When the brake pads wears out for the first time (around 38K miles), must
>you resurface the rotor when you replace the pads?
>I called some shops, some say yes, some say depends.

It depends. Resurfacing is only helpful when rotor wear was uneven.

>What happens if the rotor has minor grooves and new pads are installed
>without resurfacing the rotor?

Rotor will wear out faster. Some shops recommend changing
rotors to avoid paying twice for pad and rotors replacement.  

>Do the front brake usually wear out before the rear, or are they designed to
>wear out about the same time?
>
>The car is a 2002 wrx if it matters.

WRX, I assume, has disc brakes on all four wheels and a four
wheel drive. So the wear will be about even - particularly on
manual models. With FWD, most of the brakign job done by front
anyway.

DK
David - 16 Jun 2007 02:43 GMT
>>When the brake pads wears out for the first time (around 38K miles), must
>>you resurface the rotor when you replace the pads?
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>DK

I think the front brakes do most of the work on any vehicle.
Carl 1 Lucky Texan - 16 Jun 2007 04:31 GMT
>>>When the brake pads wears out for the first time (around 38K miles), must
>>>you resurface the rotor when you replace the pads?
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> I think the front brakes do most of the work on any vehicle.

about 70% IIRC.
The pads will wear into the 'wavy' rotor after 2-3 stops - just be a
little careful leaving the shop. After all, the old pads were working
with those 'groovy' rotors.

Carl

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peter - 16 Jun 2007 06:41 GMT
> The pads will wear into the 'wavy' rotor after 2-3 stops - just be a
> little careful leaving the shop. After all, the old pads were working with
> those 'groovy' rotors.

That's good to hear. So is it ever necessary to resurface the rotor?

So far, of the 3 shops I called, two of them (including a subaru dealer)
combine pad replacement with rotor resurfacing, only one shop says
resurfacing is optional.

I don't know what type (semi metalic? organic?) the OEM pads are. The part#
is 26296SA000 for front and 26696FC002 for the rear. The front pad kit sells
for $70, but the shops want $300 including resurfacing. This is why it is so
tempting to do-it myself. Of course I won't be able to resurface the rotor.

Has anyone tried ceremic pads? I read they are better than organic and semi
metalic (no dusts).
Ragnar - 16 Jun 2007 12:38 GMT
>> The pads will wear into the 'wavy' rotor after 2-3 stops - just be a
>> little careful leaving the shop. After all, the old pads were working with
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Has anyone tried ceremic pads? I read they are better than organic and semi
> metalic (no dusts).

You could change the rotors yourself.  Adds maybe 20 minutes to the
overall brake job.  New rotors for an 02 WRX are about $45 each.
Porgy Tirebiter - 16 Jun 2007 17:49 GMT
>>> The pads will wear into the 'wavy' rotor after 2-3 stops - just be a
>>> little careful leaving the shop. After all, the old pads were working
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>> Has anyone tried ceremic pads? I read they are better than organic and
>> semi metalic (no dusts).

"Grooves" usually only appear when you run the pads down to the rivets.
"Turning" the rotors is not a bad idea while you are in there, if they have
enough "meat" left on them to do so.This is usually done to correct slight
warping and a pulsing brake feeling.
Most shops charge $10-$15 per rotor to do this and you can pull them and
take them in yourself.
"Ceramic" pads are noisy, they tend to squeal under light pressure.I rather
have the dust and quiet brakes.Pads are cheap,rotors are not.
Brake shops WILL screw you, it's in the book. $4x15+70=$130. The rest is all
labor. There is no reason why you can't get a factory book and do this
yourself.(Doubt you will need a book for this).
Carl 1 Lucky Texan - 16 Jun 2007 22:15 GMT
>>The pads will wear into the 'wavy' rotor after 2-3 stops - just be a
>>little careful leaving the shop. After all, the old pads were working with
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Has anyone tried ceremic pads? I read they are better than organic and semi
> metalic (no dusts).

I went 120K on a '81 Civic wagon with original and never resurfaced rotors.

YMMV

Carl

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Rick Courtright - 19 Jun 2007 23:26 GMT
> What happens if the rotor has minor grooves and new pads are installed
> without resurfacing the rotor?

Hi,

As Carl said, you need to take a little extra time and care "breaking"
in the new pads to the old rotors. Once they're worn in, stopping will
be fine, though perhaps a bit noisier than with perfectly smooth rotors.

For myself, I've never resurfaced rotors on my own cars. Doing brakes
for others, yeah. Most shops want to do it cuz of the liability issue as
well as the extra income. If new pads are placed against smooth rotor
faces, they don't have to worry that Joe Customer's headed down the
street w/ only about half the breaking he expects for the first few
miles.

Ceramic pads? One of my clients was a brake mechanic for a large
dealership until he retired this year. He said ceramics were going to
"put him out of business." They wear longer than other pads, and don't
cause much rotor wear. Only caveat I've seen w/ ceramics is to do the
conversion w/ NEW rotors (check w/ the mfr to see if they have "ceramic
specific" rotors in their catalogs--some have varying grades of
replacement parts, and match the cheapest pads with the "factory warped"
Chinese rotors, the better pads w/ the straight Chinese rotors, the best
pads with... well, you see the progression.) I haven't heard the noise
or seen the dust issues w/ ceramics that were mentioned in another post.

Good luck whichever way you go!

Rick
TheOleRep@nowhere.invalid - 20 Jun 2007 02:06 GMT
>>peter wrote:

>> What happens if the rotor has minor grooves and new pads are installed
>> without resurfacing the rotor?

Rick and Carl had the most common sense responses, IMO.

>As Carl said, you need to take a little extra time and care "breaking"
>in the new pads to the old rotors. Once they're worn in, stopping will
>be fine, though perhaps a bit noisier than with perfectly smooth rotors.

>For myself, I've never resurfaced rotors on my own cars. Doing brakes
>for others, yeah. Most shops want to do it cuz of the liability issue as
>well as the extra income. If new pads are placed against smooth rotor
>faces, they don't have to worry that Joe Customer's headed down the
>street w/ only about half the breaking he expects for the first few
>miles.

Since rotors are usually made of cast iron, the material varies in hardness and
different parts will groove under the same force. So the decision to replace them to
get a smooth surface is a very short lived gain.

>Ceramic pads? One of my clients was a brake mechanic for a large
>dealership until he retired this year. He said ceramics were going to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>pads with... well, you see the progression.) I haven't heard the noise
>or seen the dust issues w/ ceramics that were mentioned in another post.

I would like to see a study of the change of rotor thickness while the pads
are showing little wear.

Peter's question references the non-existent rule book of auto repairs.

Pads are pads, and rotors are rotors. For the most part, organic pads are cheapest,
metalic more expensive, ceramic usually most expensive.

Why? The act of braking is the act of converting the motion of the car into heat.
That's it! Therefore, you want materials that transfer heat away from the brake parts
as fast as possible. Organic, slowest, metalic, better (metal transfers heat better
than organic stuff), and ceramic, well, I haven't seen enough info yet since ceramic
material is an insulator (the space shuttle uses ceramic tiles to protect during
Earth re-entry).

Rotors are more difficult to rate because every company out there gets their
rotors from a different manufacturer, on each shippment, so it would seem.

Unfortunately, you can't even rely on buying "ACME PRIME GRADE" rotors
from "ED's Auto Parts" twice in a row and getting the same thing, since Ed's
auto parts upline distributor's supply constantly changes.

In other words, you have to rely on your auto parts place to have the integrity
to check their suppliers who change constantly up the supply line somewhere.

Avoid those damn Chinese rotors. They're cheap, but not machined straight.

What to replace depends on just plain old mechanics, just like Rick and Carl
were saying. Replace pads when required, replace rotors when required.

Brakes work remarkably well even when things are not perfect. That's a good thing.
A few miles after you put all new parts on your brakes, they will be wavy, unevenly
worn, dusty, and subject to all kinds of contamination from the road and environment.

Therefore, there is some play room between when deciding to replace, turn or maybe
just break the glaze off used rotors when changing pads. Leave the decision to a
good mechanic who has all the facts.

However, anyone who wants to create a rule like "always replace rotors" either
knows something unique about a particular model of car, or just wants an easier,
faster brake job for HIM to make more money. There is no universal rule.

The Ole Factory Rep (not Subaru)
houndman@phonom.net - 23 Jun 2007 02:31 GMT
> When the brake pads wears out for the first time (around 38K miles), must
> you resurface the rotor when you replace the pads?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> The car is a 2002 wrx if it matters.

I never worried about gruves. Till the pads make full contact, the car
won't stop as fast, but then you have more contact area when they do.)

VF
strchild - 23 Jun 2007 04:19 GMT
> I never worried about gruves. Till the pads make full contact, the car
> won't stop as fast, but then you have more contact area when they do.)
>
> VF

I haven't done the math, but I'm not sure the angled contact surfaces of the
grooves are as worthwhile as flat rotors.  Don't get me wrong, but I have a
suspicion that if it were worthwhile some car company somewhere would patent
and sell grooved pads and rotors.  (-;  Maybe somebody in the forum here is
a math whiz?  Most folks I know only resurface the rotor when they get
pulsation from the brake pedal, or when it's somebody else's nickel.

~Brian

>> When the brake pads wears out for the first time (around 38K miles), must
>> you resurface the rotor when you replace the pads?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>>
>> The car is a 2002 wrx if it matters.
Larry Davis - 05 Aug 2007 12:51 GMT
On my 2003 XS, I just replaced pads on all 4 wheels for the first time
at 71,000 miles - so obviously I'm not hard on brakes.  I  used stock
pads and  I didn't do anything with the rotors.
   Brakes work fine and back to original in every way.  

>When the brake pads wears out for the first time (around 38K miles), must
>you resurface the rotor when you replace the pads?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>The car is a 2002 wrx if it matters.
 
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