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Car Forum / Subaru Cars / February 2008ABS pedal feel?
I'm not a fan of ABS, though I have little experience. The brakes on my new 07' Impreza don't start grabbing till I am into the pedal a bit, and today I had to stop fast, and the pedal went down and felt mushy. I told the dealer to check it before I took the car, and they said it was right. I'm used to a hard pedal that starts braking as soon as I press on it, and feels hard. Maybe the pads are just hard, but the brakes don't feel confidence inspiring. The best pads I put on a car were cheap, and wore out in half the miles that pads usually did, but grabbed the rotor So well, I had to learn how to brake again. First time I had to stop short at speed, because a new Vette stopped for an Long amber light on a highway, and I didn't want to hit it, but I stopped 6 car lengths further back than I usually would have with the amt of pressure on the pedal. Felt kinda foolish, like I didn't know how to drive the 10yr old car with 140K on it, but then I realized I was driving it Much faster than I usually did, and the car had Great brakes, and realized it stopped So well with the cheap pads, that they were making me More confident in the stopping ability. I plan to pull the fuse on the ABS, to see how the brakes work without it, but want to learn the system before I do it. Doesn't seem like that would affect where the pedal makes the brakes start to grab, or give the pedal a more solid feel. I believe you need a Select Monitor to open the valves in the system to bleed them, so going to get complicated if I have to go to the dealer to have it done, unless pulling the fuses changes that. They Already said they were right.. VF Many cars have spongy brae feel. I too like a firm pedal feel. Might be engineering or design On Jan 17, 8:47 pm, hound...@phonom.net wrote: > I'm not a fan of ABS, though I have little experience. The brakes on > my new 07' Impreza don't start grabbing till I am into the pedal a [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > VF On 17 Jan, 23:51, bigjimp...@gmail.com wrote: > Many cars have spongy brae feel. I too like a firm pedal feel. Might > be engineering or design [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > > VF I read that Sube and many other co's use a dual stage vacuum booster, that causes the spongy feel, and flex brake lines that expand. Found a single stage booster, but the master cyl has to be replaced also, in newer Sube's. VF > On 17 Jan, 23:51, bigjimp...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > VF I put the Soob stainless braided lines on my WRX and did not notice any improvement whatsoever. I have been told it WOULD have been noticeable 3 years down the line when the rubber was old. Better tires will also increase 'normal' brake 'feel' somewhat. The ABS will kick in later if you have good rubber on the road. Brakes stop rotation - tires stop cars. Carl 1 Lucky Texan  Signatureto reply, change ( .not) to ( .net) >> On 17 Jan, 23:51, bigjimp...@gmail.com wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > Carl > 1 Lucky Texan Hi, Also there is a kit to reinforce firewall behind master cylinder. > > hound...@phonom.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > Hi, > Also there is a kit to reinforce firewall behind master cylinder. Can the firewall be flexing That much? VF > Can the firewall be flexing That much? Yes, its not uncommon, and this affects the brake feel because the flex takes up some pedal movement. One reason for the spongy brake pedal is the design decision to provide a certain amount of progressiveness for the average (== semi-competent) driver. The smaller the master cyl diameter, the further it has to be pushed to move the calipers/shoes. So the pedal travel is large. Put in a larger diameter cyl and the travel is reduced, but the progressiveness is reduced. Many drivers don't like and often can't handle this. Others (like many reders of this NG) do like it and can handle it. SD > <hound...@phonom.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > SD Interesting... I may have to make More changes than I imagined, and I imagined a lot. That's the curse of My Way.)) VF > hound...@phonom.net wrote: > > On 17 Jan, 23:51, bigjimp...@gmail.com wrote: [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > -- > to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net) I had read about the stainless brake lines, but thought they would only be needed, when Really getting on the Stop pedal. Going to have to see if pulling the ABS fuses makes any difference. Doesn't seem like it would, but I'm taking Subaru 101.)) Do many people have the same feeling about the brakes? VF You ask if others feel the same way about ABS. No, I don't. To me, ABS is a way to stop in the minimum distance possible at my speed, weight and tires. It is a panic move! So I don't care how it feels, looks, or sounds; I just want to stop! The feeling of the vibrating brakes is something new, but when I am desperate to stop, I just don't care! Ben > You ask if others feel the same way about ABS. No, I don't. To me, > ABS is a way to stop in the minimum distance possible at my speed, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Ben Most of what I read, ABS takes longer to stop, but the Only advantage is being able to steer while braking, but rollovers are 50% higher, because if being able to steer, to avoid an accident, a tire gets into dirt, it can dig in and the vehicle is more likely to flip. I'd rather have Shorter braking distances, and Me avoiding contact. My initial desire Was, to be able to Lock the brakes if I wanted to, which a working ABS doesn't allow. Then reading about longer stopping distances, I feel I want it it even less. I Would like to have it on the rear brakes, since I had a Bad experience with rear wheels locking up in a FWD car, before they learned about Fr/Rr proportioning, and the rear locked up. I kept the car from spinning, but slid across the opposite lane, and shoulder, and down a grass embankment, stopping 2' from a 2' dia tree right next to me. I wasn't trying to avoid hitting anything but an oncoming truck, that popped up, when trying to pass a guy in a Camaro who wanted to race. Hitting the brakes lightly to slow down, and turning the wheel to get back in the lane, was too much for the vehicle. I have taken risks over the years, but I was aware of them and they were of my choosing, and I knew what the dangers were, so anticipated them. VF > Most of what I read, ABS takes longer to stop, but the Only advantage > is being able to steer while braking, but rollovers are 50% higher, > because if being able to steer, to avoid an accident, a tire gets > into dirt, it can dig in and the vehicle is more likely to flip. I'd > rather have Shorter braking distances, and Me avoiding contact. I'm not entirely sold on ABS either but IMHO being able to turn during an emergency stop is definately valuable. This past summer I had someone pull out in front of me from a parking lot while I was traveling around 45-50 and she compounded the problem by stopping in middle of the road once she saw me coming. There was no way I could stop in time and I distinctly remember wondering how far into her door my bumper was going to go. I ended up getting on the brakes hard until the last moment and then letting off and swerving around. ABS really didn't play any part but turning was certainly better than JUST slamming on the brakes and hoping for the best. SignatureRay >You ask if others feel the same way about ABS. No, I don't. To me, >ABS is a way to stop in the minimum distance possible at my speed, >weight and tires. That's not correct. The goal of ABS is not to stop the car in less distance, but to allow control as it stops. Once a wheel locks, it has little traction. An anti-lock brake allows you to steer while you stop, but may take more distance to stop you. In other words, you can now steer around what you were going to hit, or in the worst case, hit it straight on. Without ABS, you might get sideways, which allows less occupant protection, eliminates any chance of missing the obstruction, and can possibly roll the car over. On 18 Jan, 21:54, "Bonehenge (B A R R Y)" <DwightSchr...@DunderMifflin.com> wrote: > >You ask if others feel the same way about ABS. No, I don't. To me, > >ABS is a way to stop in the minimum distance possible at my speed, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > sideways, which allows less occupant protection, eliminates any chance > of missing the obstruction, and can possibly roll the car over. I'd rather have more options than ABS gives, except maybe on the rear wheels. I don't think it would have helped much on a glare ice down hill off ramp from an interstate, with a car sideways at the bottom. Reg brakes didn't help either, and steering was almost useless, but inching over to ice crystals worked. Sometimes being Able to stop isn't good. I was pretty proud of myself when young, stopping for a light on a icy downhill street. Then I heard a horn and got rear ended. Saw cars that hit each other pulled over. The street wasn't a through street but a T, so the accidents were probably all or mostly rear enders. After sliding through a red light at an intersection, on an icy downhill street at 3AM, the next day I was in a parking lot practicing skidding, and did for a few yrs after, and taught or told anyone I taught how to drive, or was leaning, to do that the first snow. Now I just do it before I get to intersections, or on a street or road I question. I see what it takes to lock the wheels, so I can adjust distances, and be prepared. On the main street here in the city, parking is allowed in the center, and people make U turns at open spaces. Had a nice one a few weeks ago, at nite, in the rain, and a kid poked out from behind a van, not far ahead, and there was a car next to me and behind, so no place to go. That's when I like tires with good wet weather traction. Learned about them when 17, and the new tires didn't have much. The 4X4 off road guys don't seem to like ABS at all, and some mfg's make it switchable, and owners of the ones that don't, want to at least put in a switch, or pull the fuses. VF I understood ABS will prevent the loss of traction which results in a skid, especially on a wet road, and when the wheels lose traction the stopping distance would be longer and uncontrolled. >>You ask if others feel the same way about ABS. No, I don't. To me, >>ABS is a way to stop in the minimum distance possible at my speed, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > sideways, which allows less occupant protection, eliminates any chance > of missing the obstruction, and can possibly roll the car over. >I understood ABS will prevent the loss of traction which results in a skid, >especially on a wet road, and when the wheels lose traction the stopping >distance would be longer and uncontrolled. You got it half right. Skidding wheels may or may not take longer to stop. It depends on the surface. I've heard it described as a tire under maximum stress can stop, turn or drive, one at a time. Skidding wheels can't turn. 'nuff said. On 18 Jan, 22:49, "Bonehenge (B A R R Y)" <DwightSchr...@DunderMifflin.com> wrote: > >I understood ABS will prevent the loss of traction which results in a skid, > >especially on a wet road, and when the wheels lose traction the stopping [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I've heard it described as a tire under maximum stress can stop, turn > or drive, one at a time. Skidding wheels can't turn. 'nuff said. Would skidding be called, locked wheels on dirt snow or gravel, where the plowing effect is said to help stopping over ABS, and is turning the wheel turning on the axle, or steering? I have read that ABS doesn't stop shorter even on glare ice. It seems like there are many situations where one thing doesn't work for all situations, and the Strange things that I have heard that ABS can do, like releasing when a tire looses contact with the road, because the wheel stopped spinning, and not braking again, till the pedal is released and reapplied, or a friend telling me the pedal kicked back, and knocked his foot off the pedal, makes me leery of the technology. VF > I understood ABS will prevent the loss of traction which results in a skid, > especially on a wet road, and when the wheels lose traction the stopping > distance would be longer and uncontrolled. I believe when a tire looses traction, like hydroplaning in the wet, not much will stop it until the speed drops and the tires start to grab. Knowing the limits of the tires would help avoid accidents. I have a FWD car with A traction rated tires, and I don't like how it grips in the rain, so I am cautious. VF > >>You ask if others feel the same way about ABS. No, I don't. To me, > >>ABS is a way to stop in the minimum distance possible at my speed, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > sideways, which allows less occupant protection, eliminates any chance > > of missing the obstruction, and can possibly roll the car over. > I understood ABS will prevent the loss of traction which results in a skid, > especially on a wet road, and when the wheels lose traction the stopping > distance would be longer and uncontrolled. I believe when a tire looses traction, like hydroplaning in the wet, not much will stop it until the speed drops and the tires start to grab. Knowing the limits of the tires would help avoid accidents. I have a FWD car with A traction rated tires, and I don't like how it grips in the rain, so I am cautious. VF > >>You ask if others feel the same way about ABS. No, I don't. To me, > >>ABS is a way to stop in the minimum distance possible at my speed, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > sideways, which allows less occupant protection, eliminates any chance > > of missing the obstruction, and can possibly roll the car over. ABS can be calibrated at manufacture to be optimal for dirt/gravel performance; it's set to a tighter tolerance so that a wheel can push up a mound of gravel and this aids braking performance. This aspect of braking is what experienced dirt drivers miss when moving to std ABS. (My Forester btw has EBD which is ABS per wheel which helps further.) As for braided steel lines, they really only pay for themselves with hard consistent braking, as in racing or rallying. Rubber lines heat up under these conditions and become relatively spongy. On Jan 18, 6:54 pm, "Bonehenge (B A R R Y)" <DwightSchr...@DunderMifflin.com> wrote: .... > The goal of ABS is not to stop the car in less distance, but to allow > control as it stops. > > Once a wheel locks, it has little traction. An anti-lock brake allows > you to steer while you stop, but may take more distance to stop you. I won't be dogmatic about it, but I don't understand the explanation. How can stopping distance be shorter with less traction? Ben > .... > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Ben In further reading on the subject I found one case in which ABS takes more distance: braking on soft surfaces. Locked wheels push the soft material ahead forming a slight barrier. Otherwise, I believe that ABS always stops you shorter. Ben >Otherwise, I believe that ABS >always stops you shorter. Change always to often, and you're there. <http://www.abs-education.org/abcs/abctips.htm> Glad to see someone who has actually considered the facts here besides myself. There have been many tests done, many posted on the internet about stopping distances. I read one of the first, many years ago when BMW introduced ABS on cars where a magazine tested the same car with and without ABS. All you have to do is look for this information. Lots of tests also with the few motorcycles that offer ABS. Look hard enough, and you can read about aircraft ABS where it all started. Measuring stopping distance is not that hard on a given surface. In the case of snow, dirt, gravel, where all four wheels are on these surfaces, ABS can make stopping distances longer. Where I have always liked ABS is on mixed surfaces where maybe one or two wheels have good traction, and the ABS system can respond only to the wheels that have lost traction. Unless you can use four brake pedals at the same time, this will be hard for any driver to ever achieve. I am on my 5th ABS equipped vehicle, and the next one will also have ABS. Blair > On Jan 18, 6:54 pm, "Bonehenge (B A R R > Y)"<DwightSchr...@DunderMifflin.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Ben In further reading on the subject I found one case in which ABS takes more distance: braking on soft surfaces. Locked wheels push the soft material ahead forming a slight barrier. Otherwise, I believe that ABS always stops you shorter. Ben >In the case of snow, dirt, gravel, where all four wheels are on these >surfaces, ABS can make stopping distances longer. Where I have always liked >ABS is on mixed surfaces where maybe one or two wheels have good traction, >and the ABS system can respond only to the wheels that have lost traction. >Unless you can use four brake pedals at the same time, this will be hard for >any driver to ever achieve. I'm with ya'! I fly airplanes with and without ABS, and without ABS, it can be difficult to manage TWO brake pedals, and I have two feet. <G> It's all about control. I wouldn't buy a car without it, either. >>In the case of snow, dirt, gravel, where all four wheels are on these >>surfaces, ABS can make stopping distances longer. Where I have always [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I wouldn't buy a car without it, either. I'm with both of you. Most 'issues' with ABS are myths. Once the tires break loose there is actualy less traction and no control. I am on my third ABS-equipped car and will always have it; even if I have to pay extra for the option. >I fly airplanes with and without ABS, and without ABS, it can be >difficult to manage TWO brake pedals, and I have two feet. <G> >It's all about control. >I wouldn't buy a car without it, either. The first (I think) ABS brakes on aircraft in the UK were called Maxarets (the maker, I assume), installed on jet fighters in the 50's. They were immediately popular with pilots because for the first time you could apply full braking in an emergency, or on a short runway, without fear of wheels locking up and bursting tires. I can never understand why they took so long to appear on cars. I drive on snow and ice 4-5 months of the year now and find ABS brakes useful almost on a daily basis because one can use them to test how slippery a road is. By giving a quick jab to feel the point the ABS kicks in, one can easily gauge the state of the road without fear of losing control. > Glad to see someone who has actually considered the facts here besides > myself. There have been many tests done, many posted on the internet about [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Ben Blair, Have you had situations where you feel the ABS helped you avoid an accident? I read that the Ins Institute claims, 50% more likely to roll over, Because of the ability to steer when braking. Now, having Never hit anything only driving Non ABS cars, I look at the roll over danger more of a danger than steering being an advantage, and where I usually drive, there is No place to steer to anyway, and not hit something, so I'd want the shortest stopping distance, and I adjust to conditions of traffic and weather, which is probably why I haven't hit anything in 45yrs. I got into an argument with a friend when complaining about how torn up bumpers get here in the city, by parallel parkers. The paint was rubber off on the corner of his bumper so I made a comment. He Must Hit cars when he pulls out, because he got Very irate and told me you Have to hit a car pulling out. I got irate back at him telling him I Don't, and can count on one hand how many times I even tapped a bumper. He called me a liar. If I tap a car when parking, I feel like an idiot, that I couldn't judge. My old Chevy gets the plastic end caps Peeled back almost every day. I took some mounting bolts off so they don't get creased any more than they are, till I can figure how to secure them to the metal bumpers. I want to put spikes sticking out. One side of my front one was always getting pushed in, and with another car, I could kick the opposite side, and square it up, with this Chevy, I need to get behind the bumper with a 3' long pipe and beat on it with a 5lb hammer for about 10min to get the bumper out. I tried slowly ramming it into a bridge abutment, after bruising my thigh, and breaking a parking light when kicking it. I wound up putting pieces of 2x3" between the bumper and the frame and haven't had to bang it out since. VF >> Glad to see someone who has actually considered the facts here besides >> myself. There have been many tests done, many posted on the internet [quoted text clipped - 94 lines] > > VF The best example was when a car pulled out from the right on a four lane road and panicked and blocked the two right lanes with me heading at his door at 35 mph. I had only seconds to determined he was going to stay there and I was able to use maximum brake force and steer to the left of his front end.and miss him. Many times I have avoided skidding into an intersection where the surface is mixed areas of ice, water and dry pavement with the ABS doing an excellent job getting traction with the wheels that are able to have traction. I have rolled two vehicles. one 1971 Ford Maverick no ABS, and 1996 Ford Ranger XLT Supercab with four wheel ABS. Both times the rear passed me when friction was less going sideways than forward. Both rolled when they hit dirt with the tires going sideways. Both had light rears, that tended to break lose, and solid rear axles that contributed to the end result. Would like to see a report comparing rollovers to type of rear axle as this was one of the main changes to the Ford Explorer after the high incidences of rollover. Just steering does not make a car rollover if you look at slalom results around cones at speed, most pass the Consumer Reports slalom course except the Suzuki Samurai a few years back. Most stunts to rollover a vehicle involve a mortar to help get it to roll. I found this tidbit, "NHTSA notes that 90 percent of rollovers happen not on pavement, as in this test, but when the vehicle leaves the road. " from this article: http://www.accidentreconstruction.com/research/suv/jeepliberty112101.asp This compares to my experience as both of my rollovers where after leaving the road. Blair > > .... > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Ben I don't know how the Sube ABS is going to work in all situations, but what I have read is that ABS can be fooled, or not do what you think it would or should. Now it might be in odd situations, like braking going over a bump, but I have read many say that it does things you wouldn't want, and Extend braking distance, even on ice, and That's where I Thought I would want it. Maybe in an ideal situation For It, it is better, but my instincts tell me I Don't want it, or to be able to switch it on or off, and if I had a problem where I would have been better off without it, I would be pissed I didn't do what I'd planned to. I sure don't feel that confident in it. VF > hound...@phonom.net wrote: > > On 17 Jan, 23:51, bigjimp...@gmail.com wrote: [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > -- > to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net) Back in the 60's I ordered a car with over sized brakes without power assist, because the assist made them too sensitive, and I wanted a nice feel. That was back in the drum brake days. Ordered it without a radio also, and the dealer called to double check. Also wanted to make sure that I wanted black on a 69" Charger. When I had told the salesmen I wanted to order a car, they said, they might have one in stock. When I told them I wanted black with a black vinyl roof, they said, You'll have to order that. When the movie Bullitt came out, everyone thought I had seen the movie. VF I guess the real answer to all of this is that if your driving style is such that whether ABS makes a big difference is important, then I wouldn't let you drive my car. >> hound...@phonom.net wrote: >> > On 17 Jan, 23:51, bigjimp...@gmail.com wrote: [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > > VF > I guess the real answer to all of this is that if your driving style is such > that whether ABS makes a big difference is important, then I wouldn't let [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > > VF It's a felling of comfort and confidence. I Wouldn't want to drive Your car if the car wore me out, having to tense different muscles than Should be needed to brake a car, like if the brakes are too sensitive your calves and ankle will have to tighten not to hit them too hard, and with a soft pedal that there is a lot of travel, you are pushing your leg further, and Hoping the brakes start to work. What's wrong with a Solid pedal that Starts working as Soon as pressure is applied?? No unncessary muscle tensing or extending to Do The Job. I always found too soft or sensitive, as bad as too hard. whether braking, steering, or ride. Both will tire you out. Looked into replacing the dual stage booster with a Single stage one to Solve the problem, but the master cyl is different, and then the brakes will have to be bled, and with the ABS and Select Monitor, that's means the dealer doing it, and any grief about the change. Umm!! Guess I'll see how it feels disconnecting the booster, thought with disks, the pedal is supposed to be Really Hard, but one way to find out. I once looked at a new car with disks that power was an option. Guess I'll do it when I try pulling the ABS fuses. Would be Nice if that fixed the mushy pedal, but I'm doubting it. Sounds like many mfgs use the dual stage booster, and people who Like to Drive, Don't Like It... VF >> I guess the real answer to all of this is that if your driving style is such >> that whether ABS makes a big difference is important, then I wouldn't let [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] > > VF I have come to the conclusion that you are a f.cking idiot. > hound...@phonom.net wrote: > >> I guess the real answer to all of this is that if your driving style is such [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] > > I have come to the conclusion that you are a f.cking idiot. How Sweet j.rk off!! If you Don't like, Don't read. Not everyone is as whipped as you. Some people go After what they want. You must eat what they give or do to you and keep quiet, till someone does things you are Afraid to, and then you try to CYA making idiot comments. No ideas, then Get F'n Lost. Maybe a Little Testosterone will give you some Balls, numb nuts. FU AH |
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