Car Forum / Subaru Cars / January 2008
From the dealers perspective. Things Ive Learned at a Subaru Dealership.....
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StephenW - 20 Jan 2008 18:02 GMT I feel lucky to work at a reputable Subaru dealership. I see no cheating or trying to milk money out of the customer, but people trying to fix cars. Some customers may say otherwise, but there are two sides to a story.. here are some of ours:
Customer #1: (Lastweek) The puddle is deeper than it looks, driving into it may put water in your engine and computer and the insurance may totlal it. Customer #2: (Lastweek) The puddle is deeper than it looks, driving into it may put water in your engine and Subaru dosn't pay for this. I realise the car only has 4000 miles on it. Being the car is brand new, getting a new long block will take some time; we have to order it from Japan. Customer #3: (Lastweek) I realise that our brakejob was priced expensive, and you did it cheaper at home. But the tools we use are expensive, and jacking it by the oil pan is not suggested, you may put a big hole in it and into the oil pickup screen. This part will have to be ordered too- Customer #4: (Lastyear) I know your a 20 year man, and dumping the clutch on a WRX may seem like the thing to do, but 1st gear dosn't desinigrate like that on its own. No there isn't a known weakness in the WRX transmissions. If you plan to treat it like a race car, get a STI, that transmission is about bulletproof. (I don't recall the resalution to this case) Customer #5: (Lastyear) Do you know customer #4? OK, 3 way split, you play 1/3, the dealership 1/3 and Subaru 1/3. Customer #5: (Lastyear, 1 month later) Stiff to shift now? Lets look at it. Wow, look at all the wear on the edges of those new gears; As the Subaru evaluater says "This kid needs a sponcer, and Subaru isn't it." (this one went to court; we as a shop never heard the final answer) Tuner Customer #6-7-8: Modifacations to the car can and will void the warrenty. If we see mods, such as ECU Modifacations, Cat removal, o2 sensors bypassed, we don't wonder why the check engine light is on. Its our job to fix the cars as they were made from the factory. There is an entire TSB covering engine mods and warrenty. Customer #9: (Lastyear) Your engine is bad, knocking. The car has 28,000 miles on it. Can you prove you have had the oil changed? While 3000 is the standard, 7000 is what the manufacture suggests, so show us proof of 4 oil changes, thats all. Why don't you wish for us to see the recept of the oil change at Jiffie Lube? Does it say something like "No oil on stick" on it? (I think we split the cost on this repair too)
IF you have regular service done at a shop, expect them to go farther to help you. A example: A 90k service done, and about a month later the car returns due to a transmission noise. The oil level was good, the diff bearing went bad. We did a 3way split with this customer for the repair. When the service manager is discussing a case with the Subaru people, he will let them know the service history of the cosomer, this often can influance the decisions. Last week a car came in after having the timing belt was done at another shop, noting the heads were leaking, but it is over milage on the engine, but not years. Altho this car has not been in our shop befor, it was agreed that we will put the coolant additive/sealant in and wait 6 months. If the leak persists, then 50/50 or 1/3 split on the cost.
Gee Whiz: Don't post on the internet how you trashed your car and Subaru has to pay for it (LOL) Honest people read the internet and may send everything you wrote to the service managers in your area. The Tech or Service manager may even be reading the bullitenboard....
illinoissube@aol.invalid - 21 Jan 2008 05:52 GMT > I feel lucky to work at a reputable Subaru dealership. I see no cheating or > trying to milk money out of the customer, but people trying to fix cars. > Some customers may say otherwise, but there are two sides to a story.. here > are some of ours: Great stories! Thanks for posting them.
I'm certain y'all have to deal with folks like this all the freakin time.
Personally I've had really positive experience with Roto Subaru in Arlington Heights, IL. Their service department while not flawless does have one very experienced Subaru tech who seems very good. They also have an A+ sales guy named Charles Perchak who should be running the place, honestly. At one point though, he reported to some sales manager who was a complete douchebag (Rodd Stein). Sadly, that led to me buying the car at the other area dealer when I'd really liked to have given Charles and Joe McAvoy (another great guy) that business.
Subaru of Schaumburg, unfortunately -- at least back when I purchased my car, was staffed by very inexperienced techs and a service manager who I thought might drop dead of a heart attack at any moment whose interests didn't seem to be the customer's. I tried them again years later only to be treated unprofessionally by a rather young service advisor whose customer service bent was such that I went hunting for an independent.
Dano58 - 21 Jan 2008 14:35 GMT > Last week a car came in after having the timing belt was > done at another shop, noting the heads were leaking, but it is over milage > on the engine, but not years. Altho this car has not been in our > shop befor, it was agreed that we will put the coolant additive/sealant in > and wait 6 months. If the leak persists, then 50/50 or 1/3 split on the > cost. I'm curious about the additive/sealant comment. I just received a notice from our local dealer last week saying that the 105-month service is due on the car. Since the car actually has a newer engine (from an '01 RS with about $36k on it) I'm not going to have the service done at this point. But also on the notice was a comment about 'Service Campaign WWP99 - Engine Cooling System Conditioner'. Is that what you're referring to? And is it actually a 'sealant'?
Thanks,
Dan D '99 Impreza 2.5 RS (son's) Central NJ USA
.._.. - 21 Jan 2008 17:19 GMT > I'm curious about the additive/sealant comment. I just received a > notice from our local dealer last week saying that the 105-month [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > 'Service Campaign WWP99 - Engine Cooling System Conditioner'. Is that > what you're referring to? And is it actually a 'sealant'? It's re-branded "leak stop" stuff that goes in the coolant. (They just slapped a Subaru sticker on some over the counter stuff.) A rather oily looking liquid that gets into cracks (and gunks up your radiator and overflow tank) and stops gaskets from leaking coolant as well. Some people swear by it, others swear at it as a shitty fix for an expensive problem.
Usually it's SOAs response to a leaking gasket internally to the cylinder. The external gasket leak is a "replace gasket" recall not a "add conditioner" recall item. So if you are getting weaping outside the head of coolant, you have a different problem than what the conditioner can solve.
It's just a temporary fix they use to get you out of warranty before the engine needs replacing or the gaskets completely fail.
Sorry, but goop put in the engine will not make a shitty gasket design a good gasket design. The only real solution is to get the gaskets replaced before the engine is destroyed by low coolant and spot-overheating.
Here's a detailed story about the problem; http://home.comcast.net/~skipnospam/Head_gasket_replacement.html
If you have a 2001 EJ251 engine, you have one of the models that could have the issue (not all of them get it). So get the coolant conditoner from the dealership and get it documented so they have to pay if it blows before the warranty is up.
"When the service manager is discussing a case with the Subaru people, he will let them know the service history of the cosomer, this often can influance the decisions."
In other words, throw lots of extra money at a dealership and they just might honor what they are legally bound to honor because their parent company (and they) f.cked up big time when they bored out a 2.0 liter engine into a 2.5 without beefing up the gaskets or the cylinder wall.
All car dealerships are scum, you can't really escape that basic fact. Here's one that wants a bunch of money before he'll consider doing what he should have been doing in the first place. Sorry, folks shouldn't be expected to be thinking about blown head gaskets on a four year old car unless it's a Ford.
Dano58 - 21 Jan 2008 20:52 GMT On Jan 21, 12:19 pm, ".._.." <.....@yourmom.mil> spewed:
> It's re-branded "leak stop" stuff that goes in the coolant. (They just > slapped a Subaru sticker on some over the counter stuff.) A rather oily [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > expected to be thinking about blown head gaskets on a four year old car > unless it's a Ford. Wow, you must be bitter about something, eh, ".._.."? I have a hard time accepting advice from someone who doesn't put even a made-up name on his or her posts..... I'll wait to see what StephenW has to say.
I have certainly heard of issues with the Subaru 2.5 headgaskets but thought that they had the issue fixed by the '01 model year.
Dan D '99 Impreza 2.5 RS (son's) Central NJ USA
Todd H. - 22 Jan 2008 00:08 GMT > I have certainly heard of issues with the Subaru 2.5 headgaskets but > thought that they had the issue fixed by the '01 model year. Nope. Mine (2001 Outback) joined the new HG club 8 months ago at around 110k miles. Small internal leak, but a leak.
-- Todd H. 2001 Legacy Outback Wagon, 2.5L H-4 Chicago, Illinois USA
StephenW - 22 Jan 2008 06:34 GMT > Wow, you must be bitter about something, eh, ".._.."? I have a hard > time accepting advice from someone who doesn't put even a made-up name [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > '99 Impreza 2.5 RS (son's) > Central NJ USA Carl nailed it on the head. It's for external weeping only. It is just a "approved" additive for Subaru. We have seen no problems with it clogging the cooling system. As fot specific modles that are effected, Wow, I'm as curious as you. We don't see a ton of head gaskets but enough. Some single, some dual cams. this seems to be more than a set number; but those repaired don't come back. We see many with no leaks at all in them also...... I checked a 03 legacy, it has the tsb for the additive but not the headgaskets; as if the problem is resolved.
Here is the tsb for the head gasket from a 2000 legacy. These are not all the info: SUBJECT: Engine Cooling System Conditioner
INTRODUCTION
Subaru of America, Inc. (SOA) has determined that over time, affected vehicles may develop small external coolant leaks at engine cylinder head gaskets. This is the result of normal expansion and contraction of engine components caused by the heating and cooling of these parts. To prevent cylinder head gasket leaks from developing or to correct existing leaks, a special Subaru Cooling System Conditioner should be added to affected vehicle cooling systems.
This Service Program will involve adding one bottle of Genuine Subaru Cooling System Conditioner to the engine cooling system.
AFFECTED VEHICLES
2000-2002 MY Subaru Legacy and Outback with 2.5L engine.
1999-2002 MY Impreza with 2.5L engine.
1999-2002 MY Forester with 2.5L engine.
Affected vehicles are identified in the VIN range chart below. Only vehicles with a 2.5L engine are affected
Here is the tsb on the additive: This conditioner reinforces the efficiency of the cooling system and includes anti-corrosive properties. When used as directed, the Cooling System Conditioner remains suspended in the radiator until the engine is started and the thermostat fully opens. Once this product begins to circulate throughout the cooling system, the conditioner is attracted to the suspect area in the vehicle's cooling system. The heat generated by the engine acts as an activation agent and hardens the cooling system conditioner to help seal the suspect area.
It is important to remember that this product is not to be used in place of proper diagnostic processes. The proper diagnostic process is to thoroughly inspect the cooling system before the conditioner is added to the vehicle. For example, this product does not remedy concerns where coolant is found in the combustion chSUBJECT: Engine Cooling System Conditioner
 Signature Steve ASE Master Tech L1 Diag Currently residing at a Subaru Shop 4.5 years doing tires and alighnments
Dano58 - 22 Jan 2008 14:07 GMT > > Wow, you must be bitter about something, eh, ".._.."? I have a hard > > time accepting advice from someone who doesn't put even a made-up name [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > Currently residing at a Subaru Shop > 4.5 years doing tires and alighnments Thanks, Steve. I guess I will make arrangements for this to be added to my son's car.
Dan D '99 Impreza 2.5 RS (son's) Central NJ USA
Carl 1 Lucky Texan - 21 Jan 2008 23:21 GMT >>I'm curious about the additive/sealant comment. I just received a >>notice from our local dealer last week saying that the 105-month [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > conditioner" recall item. So if you are getting weaping outside the head of > coolant, you have a different problem than what the conditioner can solve. Just to clear things up - the external weeping is treated with the coolant conditioner IIRC (which is a rebranded product, as are most fluids sold by ALL car companies, but not all the OTC products are the same and Subaru will sell it to you very cheap IIRC so you could do your own coolant changes).
The internal leak requires new gaskets.
Carl
 Signature to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)
suburboturbo - 21 Jan 2008 18:15 GMT > I feel lucky to work at a reputable Subaru dealership. I see no cheating or > trying to milk money out of the customer, but people trying to fix cars. [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > you wrote to the service managers in your area. The Tech or > Service manager may even be reading the bullitenboard.... Don't you love it. I used to work at a body shop, doing mostly front- end work and other mechanical repairs to fix damage that came along with minor collisions. Since we didn't deal with warranty claims, I didn't have an opportunity to the hear the stories you did, but heard enough. Well, gee, I'm not surprised the car was "steering funny" before the crash. You had no ball joints and the shocks were mush after 120,000 miles. When I suggested changing the tranny fluid as long as I had the car on the lift (assuming correctly it hadn't been changed in those 120k) 9 times out of 10 they were sure you were trying to rip them off because they never heard of it being done before. Check the service schedule in your owners manual. "Oh, I lost that years ago".
Mark - 29 Jan 2008 17:34 GMT > Customer #4: (Lastyear) I know your a 20 year man, and dumping the > clutch on a WRX may seem like the thing to do, but 1st gear dosn't > desinigrate like that on its own. No there isn't a known weakness in > the WRX transmissions. If you plan to treat it like a race car, > get a STI, that transmission is about bulletproof. (I don't recall > the resalution to this case) I went to school with a guy that received a new1974 Pontiac Trans-AM 455 S/D for his Senior year.
According to the Pontiac Dealer Service Manager, who is a friend of mine, the car went through 5 clutches and 2 transmissions under warranty.
another mechanic that lives in the neighborhood as "tommy" and I did, called me one afternoon
did I know "tommy"
yes
his dad has his car down at my shop wondering why the back tires wore out after 5,000 miles...... the fronts are like new
well, does the dad know that "tommy" was drag racing the car on the high school parking lot the day after he received it....... ??
yeah, thats what I figured was going on............ nothing wrong with the drivetrain of the car.
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