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Car Forum / Subaru Cars / January 2008Converting from belt-driven fan to electric fan
I want to convert my Subaru Hatch (1989 GL 3-door) from a belt driven fan to an electric fan, in order to help it warm up faster in the cold weather we have been having lately. I also believe that it may save a couple MPG (the car gets <>21=>28 MPG depending on road speed and whether I have to use 4WD). I can get a fan for a Paseo pretty cheap, but will have to add a themostat and all the wiring. All in all, it looks like I can do this for <$50. Any ideas? Oh, and out of all the cars I have, this is the only car (other than my Scion) that the A/C actually WORKS! And it's the only car that won't be on the road in the summer! Figures, eh? > I want to convert my Subaru Hatch (1989 GL 3-door) from a belt driven fan > to an electric fan, in order to help it warm up faster in the cold weather > we have been having lately. I don't think it will make that much of a difference. As long as the thermostat is closed, there won't be coolant going through the radiator, so it won't matter if air is moving through or not. > I also believe that it may save a couple MPG > (the car gets <>21=>28 MPG depending on road speed and whether I have to > use 4WD). I would think in the neighborhood of 0.1 mpg. If you are concerned about MPG, try making sure that there is enough air in the tires. > I can get a fan for a Paseo pretty cheap, but will have to add a themostat > and all the wiring. All in all, it looks like I can do this for <$50. > > Any ideas? Forget it, except make sure there is enough air in the tires, don't drive like a rabbit, and have a great day. Jeff > Oh, and out of all the cars I have, this is the only car (other than my > Scion) that the A/C actually WORKS! And it's the only car that won't be on > the road in the summer! Figures, eh? >I want to convert my Subaru Hatch (1989 GL 3-door) from a belt driven fan > to an electric fan, in order to help it warm up faster in the cold weather > we have been having lately. I also believe that it may save a couple MPG > (the car gets <>21=>28 MPG depending on road speed and whether I have to > use 4WD). I don't think an electric fan will make much of a difference in warm up speed. The belt-driven fan has a clutch that is disengaged when it is cold, so while it may be free-wheeling, it shouldn't be sucking signficant air through the radiator. > I can get a fan for a Paseo pretty cheap, but will have to add a themostat > and all the wiring. All in all, it looks like I can do this for <$50. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Scion) that the A/C actually WORKS! And it's the only car that won't be on > the road in the summer! Figures, eh? Adding the electric fan should be easy if you can fabricate some kind of bracket for the fan, The hard part will be adding a coolant temperature switch somewhere. You will have to drill and tap an opening in the radiator side (not the part of the engine where the coolant circulates when the thermostat is closed) of the cooling system to mount the coolant temperature switch. There may be room in the thermostat housing, but before you go and potentially ruin the existing housing, I would get another one to modify and keep the original in case your modification doesn't work properly. Your other option would be to get a cast aluminum sleeve in the radiator hose and mount the switch in the sleeve, or mount a switch somewhere inside the car that you can operate manually. You will also have to wire a relay into the system between the switch and the fan since the switch probably won't handle the current from the fan.  SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) -- Ray O (correct punctuation to reply) >>I want to convert my Subaru Hatch (1989 GL 3-door) from a belt driven fan >> to an electric fan, in order to help it warm up faster in the cold [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > You will also have to wire a relay into the system between the switch and > the fan since the switch probably won't handle the current from the fan. Ray, Ray, Ray! I think these things out beforehand! http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10002_758607_-1_11471 >>>I want to convert my Subaru Hatch (1989 GL 3-door) from a belt driven fan >>> to an electric fan, in order to help it warm up faster in the cold [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10002_758607_-1_11471 OK, that covers the part about the relay, but you still have to figure out where and how to mount the sensor. They show what looks like a sleeve to hold the sensor, but the hole has to be drilled and the sleeve installed somehow. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > > Adding the electric fan should be easy if you can fabricate some kind of > > bracket for the fan, The hard part will be adding a coolant temperature [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10002_758607_-1_11471 Why so much $$$ for that stuff? You may never recover your costs in fuel savings if you spend that much. Here's how I'd do it: Either get a thermostatic switch from an old drip coffee maker or microwave oven (check ratings because they trigger at anywhere from 140-212F), or use a thermistor (electronic parts supplies, dud battery packs from cordless tools). BTW any relay from a microwave oven probably can't carry the current needed by a fan because AC amp ratings for relay contacts are equivalent to less than 25-50% the DC ratings. You'll probably have to build an electronic controller consisting of at least a transistor and diode to drive the relay coil (wire diode across coil to keep it from destroying the transistor). A thermostatic switch can be wired almost directly to the driver transistor, but a thermistor needs a comparator circuit to set the trigger temperatures, plural because there's one temp. for turning on the fan, another, lower, temp to turn it off. That also means hooking up the comparator (think LM339, which is four comparators in one package) as a Schmitt trigger. You'll also need to find the relay that turns on the A/C compressor and use its signal to turn on the fan whenever the compressor runs. > I want to convert my Subaru Hatch (1989 GL 3-door) from a belt driven fan > to an electric fan, in order to help it warm up faster in the cold weather [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Scion) that the A/C actually WORKS! And it's the only car that won't be on > the road in the summer! Figures, eh? All that Ray and Jeff mentioned and in addition, to purchase all that's needed to change the system over, plus the cost of your time and effort, it may be a long time before you find it was cost effective on an almost twenty year old vehicle. IMHO, save your money and effort. > I want to convert my Subaru Hatch (1989 GL 3-door) from a belt driven fan > to an electric fan, in order to help it warm up faster in the cold weather > we have been having lately. I also believe that it may save a couple MPG > (the car gets <>21=>28 MPG depending on road speed and whether I have to > use 4WD). Just stick a piece of cardboard in front of the rad, covering about 2/3 of it. Probably won't help much with mileage, but should help warm it up faster. >I want to convert my Subaru Hatch (1989 GL 3-door) from a belt driven fan > to an electric fan, in order to help it warm up faster in the cold weather [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Scion) that the A/C actually WORKS! And it's the only car that won't be on > the road in the summer! Figures, eh? I doubt you will see much of an improvement in either the warm-up time, or the fuel economy. Once the car is moving, the fan is almost a non-factor. And when the car is cold, the thermostat should prevent water from circulating through radiator. If you decide to go ahead with the conversion, you will also need to add a switch to turn on the fan in response to the needs of the A/C. My modern cars with electric fans and A/C all have high side switches that turn on the electric cooling fan when the A/C high side pressure goes up to some level. An older Audi I owned, just turned on the electric cooling fan anytime the A/C compressor was engaged. Ed >>I want to convert my Subaru Hatch (1989 GL 3-door) from a belt driven fan >> to an electric fan, in order to help it warm up faster in the cold weather >> we have been having lately. I also believe that it may save a couple MPG >> (the car gets <>21=>28 MPG depending on road speed and whether I have to >> use 4WD). I also don't think you will see much of an improvement. The thermostat should be closed when the engine is cold and then it will modulate to control coolant flow to keep the engine at temperature once it warms up. It doesn't matter how much air is going through the radiator on a cold engine since the water is only moving through the heater core until the thermostat opens. You also have a clutch on the fan that is temp sensitive. When you first start it up the fan may roar a bit until the fluid in that clutch warms up (a minute or so) but past that point the fan isn't doing much. If it were mine I would leave it alone. It has worked fine the way the factory designed it for close to 20 years... Make sure it is in good tune and drive like there is an egg between your foot and the accelerator pedal and you will save much more fuel. Steve B. Make sure it is in > good tune and drive like there is an egg between your foot and the > accelerator pedal and you will save much more fuel. > > Steve B. _______________________ About that last suggestion, Steve: We are joined at the hip with that statement. But how can one drive like there is an egg on the accelerator without having the vehicle behind you end up in your back seat? I live in Fairfield County and believe me, when the light turns green, even on an old two-laner, the roar of cars leaving the line resembles several 747s spooling up for takeoff at once! The floor-pan beneath their gas pedals must have an extra indentation from how often that pedal's been FLOORED! I've also been watching my tachometer more on takeoffs - not allowing it to rev above 2000-2500 before letting up on the gas and letting the ole' automatic downshift. Accelerating through lower gears is a LOT quieter than pressing the pedal almost all the way down and not letting until the car is at the speed limit. It's just that most drivers behind me don't have the patience for my fuel-saving ways. ;) -CC On Jan 21, 9:59 am, Steve B. <n...@none.com> wrote: Make sure it is in > good tune and drive like there is an egg between your foot and the > accelerator pedal and you will save much more fuel. > > Steve B. _______________________ About that last suggestion, Steve: We are joined at the hip with that statement. But how can one drive like there is an egg on the accelerator without having the vehicle behind you end up in your back seat? When the drivers of those cars start paying for your gas, then you can drive like they do. Until then, drive as you want. I'm not suggesting you do 15 in a 45, I'm suggesting that your rate of acceleration from 0 to 45 should be what you want it to be, not what the guy behind wants it to be. > Steve B. <n...@none.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > acceleration from 0 to 45 should be what you want it to be, not what the > guy behind wants it to be. Tomes (back from the Usenet dead) "ChrisCoaster" <ckozicki@snet.net> wrote -3bcde1ce6dcc@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com... Steve B. <n...@none.com> wrote: Make sure it is in > good tune and drive like there is an egg between your foot and the > accelerator pedal and you will save much more fuel. > > Steve B. _______________________ About that last suggestion, Steve: We are joined at the hip with that statement. But how can one drive like there is an egg on the accelerator without having the vehicle behind you end up in your back seat? I live in Fairfield County and believe me, when the light turns green, even on an old two-laner, the roar of cars leaving the line resembles several 747s spooling up for takeoff at once! The floor-pan beneath their gas pedals must have an extra indentation from how often that pedal's been FLOORED! I've also been watching my tachometer more on takeoffs - not allowing it to rev above 2000-2500 before letting up on the gas and letting the ole' automatic downshift. Accelerating through lower gears is a LOT quieter than pressing the pedal almost all the way down and not letting until the car is at the speed limit. It's just that most drivers behind me don't have the patience for my fuel-saving ways. ;) -CC _______________________________ It is a paradigm thing. Until folks get used to changing the ways that they have driven for all these years with cheap gas, they will continue to be annoyed by folks that drive with less lead-footedness. Eventually they will change with the rest or they will continue to be annoyed (not my problem) and continue to lose money on gas. Tomes (back from the Usenet dead) > It is a paradigm thing. Until folks get used to changing the ways that > they have driven for all these years with cheap gas, they will continue to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Tomes > (back from the Usenet dead) And a good thing! Where ya been? And if you remember, I am a bit of an 'enthusiast' (er, about as enthusiastic as you can get with an 1800 and a 3-speed AT...) But because of where I live and how I drive, I usually manage better than usual mileage anyway. > About that last suggestion, Steve: We are joined at the hip with that > statement. But how can one drive like there is an egg on the accelerator > without having the vehicle behind you end up in your back seat? I live in a rural area and drive it mostly at night! But, like I said, where's the fun in that?!?! Two of the other cars I have on the road: 1988 Supra Sport Roof (no Turbo) and 2005 Scion tC. Vrooom, Vrooom! One car I have not on the road: 1985 Corolla GTS...VROOOOOOM.... >If it were mine I would leave it alone. It has worked fine the way >the factory designed it for close to 20 years... Make sure it is in >good tune and drive like there is an egg between your foot and the >accelerator pedal and you will save much more fuel. The faster you get into top gear and the longer you stay in top gear, the better the economy. Even a jackrabbit takeoff is preferable to taking three minutes to get up to speed. Maintain a decent following distance to reduce the need for braking. > drive like there is an egg between your foot and the accelerator pedal > and you will save much more fuel. Where's the fun in that?!?!?! Actually, it is a 3-speed AT (and I *MEAN* 3-speed!!!) It tends to get into top gear rather quickly, and stays there even if you almost stop for yield signs. I'm getting varying fuel economy. For the 'paper route' it gets about 23, unless I have to use AWD when it snows/ices, where it drops to ~20. For open road driving (I rarely drive >50 MPH, since it's spinning at ~3,700 RPM) it squeaks out 25-26. It hasn't been run for a while and had crap gas in it, so it gets better the more it's driven. >> drive like there is an egg between your foot and the accelerator pedal >> and you will save much more fuel. > > Where's the fun in that?!?!?! Why does everything have to be fun? > Actually, it is a 3-speed AT (and I *MEAN* 3-speed!!!) > It tends to get into top gear rather quickly, and stays there even if you [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > RPM) it squeaks out 25-26. It hasn't been run for a while and had crap gas > in it, so it gets better the more it's driven. > > Where's the fun in that?!?!?! > > Why does everything have to be fun? Aren't you the same guy who always want people to get a life? >>> Where's the fun in that?!?!?! >> Why does everything have to be fun? > > Aren't you the same guy who always want people to get a life? Getting a life doesn't mean wasting resources. I also suggest they take the subway, bus or other public transit, walk or take a bicycle, too. Jeff >>>> Where's the fun in that?!?!?! >>> Why does everything have to be fun? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Jeff That's why I drive cars that get better than average fuel economy. > >>>> Where's the fun in that?!?!?! > >>> Why does everything have to be fun? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > That's why I drive cars that get better than average fuel economy. Maybe your subaru may get better mpg and power once you switch to a electric fan. Belt driven fans uses the engines power, I'm not sure if the alternator would work much more when you use an electric fan >> >>>> Where's the fun in that?!?!?! >> >>> Why does everything have to be fun? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > electric fan. Belt driven fans uses the engines power, I'm not sure if > the alternator would work much more when you use an electric fan There probably is not much of a difference in parasitic loss between a belt or engine driven fan and electrically driven cooling fans. Electric fans cost more to install than one mounted on the front of the engine, but they are pretty much the only choice for vehicles with transverse-mounted engines, since a fan at the side of the engine compartment wouldn't do much. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) On Jan 21, 11:00 pm, "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote: > >> >>>> Where's the fun in that?!?!?! > >> >>> Why does everything have to be fun? [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Ray O > (correct punctuation to reply) On my previously owned BMW E34, it had the belt driven fan and 2 auxiliary fans. I hear the auxiliary fans turn on many times that's why I assume that the aux fans do most of the work. The aux fans had a normal and high speed. I do remember replacing my fan clutch years ago. I was thinking the fan connected to the engine didn't work as much so as not to draw power from the engine. My aunt had a Toyota with a 4Y engine many years ago. I'm pretty sure it had both belt fan and aux electric fans but I'm not sure which fan did much of the cooling. However since they are called "auxiliary" I would assume they are just for supplemental cooling. > On Jan 21, 11:00 pm, "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > cooling. However since they are called "auxiliary" I would assume they > are just for supplemental cooling. Obviously, designers use auxiliary electric fans if the engine-driven fan doesn't move sufficient air through the radiator and/or air conditioning condenser. You would probably see this arrangement if the radiator and air conditioning condenser has a relatively small surface area, like when the front opening is small, especially in cars with air conditioners. I believe that in the U.S., the Toyota 4Y engine was used in the first generation vans and is still used in forklifts. I doubt if your aunt owned a forklift, so I'll assume that she had the first generation van. The first generation van had a mid-engine layout mounted behind the front wheels, under the front passenger seats. The location meant that an engine-mounted fan would not draw air through the radiator, so additional electric cooling fans were mounted on the radiator to draw air through it. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >I doubt if your aunt owned >a forklift Now THERE is a great mind picture..... LOL SignatureScott in Florida > On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 00:30:30 -0600, "Ray O" > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > -- > Scott in Florida hahaha. The 4Y engine was on a RWD Toyota Crown and not a minivan and much more a forklift. >> On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 00:30:30 -0600, "Ray O" >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> -- >> Scott in Florida >hahaha. The 4Y engine was on a RWD Toyota Crown and not a minivan and >much more a forklift. >> On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 00:30:30 -0600, "Ray O" >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > hahaha. The 4Y engine was on a RWD Toyota Crown and not a minivan and > much more a forklift. The Crown hasn't been sold in the U.S. for quite a while, and it had a M series engine back then. Obviously, your aunt isn't in the U.S.! SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > On my previously owned BMW E34, it had the belt driven fan and 2 > auxiliary fans. I hear the auxiliary fans turn on many times that's [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > cooling. However since they are called "auxiliary" I would assume they > are just for supplemental cooling. Most of the auxiliary fans are there to provide better airflow over the AC condenser unit than the engine driven fan can provide at lower speeds. They are also used in vehicles that have poor airflow characteristics due to the body design or aerodynamic styling. On vehicles with small engines they are also used to save some engine power. SignatureSteve W. Near Cooperstown, New York Life is not like a box of chocolates it's more like a jar of jalapenos- what you do today could burn your a.s tomorrow! >> > Getting a life doesn't mean wasting resources. I also suggest they take >> > the subway, bus or other public transit, walk or take a bicycle, too. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > electric fan. Belt driven fans uses the engines power, I'm not sure if > the alternator would work much more when you use an electric fan Hmmmm...I mentioned before this is the only 'beater' I have that has a working R-12 A/C. It's also the only beater I have that won't see roads in the summertime (the plate will be coming off it and going back on the Supra...) So, it's a Winter-only car. I really don't need a fan running all the time, and when you stop the car for a while and leave the engine running, it really draws down the engine temp...almost to cold. So losing the belt-driven fan won't really be too hard to take. I bet the thing hasn't 'turned on' for at least two weeks... ["Followup-To:" header set to alt.autos.subaru.] > So, it's a Winter-only car. I really don't need a fan running all the > time, and when you stop the car for a while and leave the engine running, > it really draws down the engine temp...almost to cold. So losing the > belt-driven fan won't really be too hard to take. I bet the thing hasn't > 'turned on' for at least two weeks... Sounds like your fan clutch, thermostat, or possibly both are sticking. I havn't tried it on a Subie but on my Explorer the fan clutch is easy to test. With the engine off and cold you should be able to turn the fan with your hand. With the engine off and warm you shouldn't be able to turn it. I'm with the others in saying that switching to an electric fan doesn't seem like it would buy you over the existing system assuming it were working properly. I also don't see why you would gain any milage since the energy to turn the fan still needs to come from the engine but now with an extra conversion to electricity at the alternator and then back to mechanical energy at the fan motor. Every conversion will lose you some effeciency so I'd expect the electric fan to actually use more gas rather than less. SignatureRay > ["Followup-To:" header set to alt.autos.subaru.] >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Sounds like your fan clutch, thermostat, or possibly both are sticking. Thermostat seems OK. Haven't checked the fan, but my experience with Jap cars is that if they go bad, they tend to idle rather than stick. But, you bring up a good point...when I get it back from having the timing belts changed, I'll check the fan...($180 rather than freezing my @$$ with the car on jack stands and my work area a sheet of ice? I'll pay the $180...) I > havn't tried it on a Subie but on my Explorer the fan clutch is easy to > test. With the engine off and cold you should be able to turn the fan with [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > energy at the fan motor. Every conversion will lose you some effeciency so I'd > expect the electric fan to actually use more gas rather than less. See my reply to Steve. We had one week in the 40's, one week in the 60's!!! and have been in the deep freeze ever since. I don't even think the fan is needed at this point!! ;) > It's also the only beater I have that won't see roads in the summertime > (the plate will be coming off it and going back on the Supra...) > > So, it's a Winter-only car. I really don't need a fan running all the > time, That's what the clutch on the engine-driven fan is for. > and when you stop the car for a while and leave the engine running, > it really draws down the engine temp...almost to cold. Then fix the THERMOSTAT instead of spending all the money for an electric fan. The fan isn't what's making the engine get too cool, its a bad thermostat. >> It's also the only beater I have that won't see roads in the summertime >> (the plate will be coming off it and going back on the Supra...) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > That's what the clutch on the engine-driven fan is for. But even with the clutch, the fan is always spinning. It never completely stops. And with the weather here being in the single digits, air movement other than from driving is not required. >> and when you stop the car for a while and leave the engine running, >> it really draws down the engine temp...almost to cold. > > Then fix the THERMOSTAT instead of spending all the money for an > electric fan. The fan isn't what's making the engine get too cool, its a > bad thermostat. Thermostat's cool. When the car is running at a constant speed, or even stop and start driving, the temp satys rock-steady. Only if I park for more than 2 minutes does the temp drop. At these temps, it seems even airflow from the fan idling is enough to cool the engine. >>> It's also the only beater I have that won't see roads in the >>> summertime [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > movement > other than from driving is not required. Ahhh yes, but when you are forcing air through the radiator in excess of what the fan draws when not moving, the fan is not drawing much power, it is more like a windmill at that point. Again, if you have a properly operating viscous clutch, the fan isn't going to draw significant power. There is a certain amount of drag from the clutch that causes the fan to rotate, but the power draw is tiny. If you want to get into diagnostics, you'll need a variable strobe light. You adjust the strobe until the fan appears to be not moving and then compare that rpm to the engine rpm. >>> and when you stop the car for a while and leave the engine >>> running, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > to > cool the engine. It still seems to me that there is a problem with the thermostat. Have you verified operation of the fan clutch? One possibility is that the clutch is frozen. There really should not be much difference between idling and driving at moderate speeds as far as cooling is concerned. I am surprised that the fan over-cools the car at idle, but you don't experience over-cooling car when cruising at a steady 35 mph. Have you actually tested the thermostat, or are you just assuming it is OK because it seems OK when the engine is under load. It is possible that the thermostat does not completely close so it cannot regulate temperature at the low end. For the cost of a thermostat, I'd try a new one before going overboard and installing an electrically operated cooling fan. Ed >>>> It's also the only beater I have that won't see roads in the summertime >>>> (the plate will be coming off it and going back on the Supra...) [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > is more like a windmill at that point. Again, if you have a properly > operating viscous clutch, the fan isn't going to draw significant power. I'm not sure how you got onto the power issue. His problem is heat. He wants to remove the belt-driven fan and replace it with an electric fan. His idea is that the air flowing from the moving fan slows the rate if heat-rise, and if he can remove the belt-driven fan then he will get heat faster. I think his idea is flawed, and I would not consider it. But, I live where bitter cold comes on when the thermometer hits 60 and stays there all day. There is a certain amount of drag from the clutch > that causes the fan to rotate, but the power draw is tiny. If you want to > get into diagnostics, you'll need a variable strobe light. You adjust the [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Ed I agree with your assessement on the tstat. I think the tstat is the trouble, but I think it is sticking open. An open tstat cause the cooant temp to fall, when the coolant temp falls so much that the needle moves below the mid-point, then the tstat is stuck open. When the car is moving, there is work being done that generates heat, and the heat can overcome the stuck open tstat, keeping the temp in a normal range. But, when the car stops moving, the work stops, and a stuck open tstat can take out more heat than is being generated, the result being a falling needle on the guage. >>> It's also the only beater I have that won't see roads in the summertime >>> (the plate will be coming off it and going back on the Supra...) [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > At these temps, it seems even airflow from the fan idling is enough to > cool the engine. The proper and working thermostat will 'close' and force the engine to stay at it's setting of say 195F when you slow down the engine so you keep the heater working, a broken thermostat will allow the engine to cool down so you lose internal heat. I just changed one like that in my Jeep and in a friends car, they were broken 'open' so we couldn't keep heat up. Thermostats are backward to what some think, they set how 'cold' an engine can run, not how hot. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com >>>> It's also the only beater I have that won't see roads in the summertime >>>> (the plate will be coming off it and going back on the Supra...) [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Thermostats are backward to what some think, they set how 'cold' an engine > can run, not how hot. Another common mistake is in thinking that a tstat opens in a drive cycle, then stays that way. A tstat opens and closes repeatedly throughout the drive cycle. >>>>> It's also the only beater I have that won't see roads in the >>>>> summertime [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > cycle, then stays that way. A tstat opens and closes repeatedly > throughout the drive cycle. Or even open in the real cold... I went to the beer store yesterday at -12C. The store is about a mile and half away. I watched the computer gauge readout on the console in our GM V6 car. I had heat on the way there, but only as I was getting there, then I was back home in the driveway with lots of heat as the temp hit 190F which meant the 192F T-stat hadn't opened nor had the electric fan turned on. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com >>>It's also the only beater I have that won't see roads in the summertime >>>(the plate will be coming off it and going back on the Supra...) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > stops. And with the weather here being in the single digits, air movement > other than from driving is not required. That's deceptive, though. Aeordynamic forces usually increase as the cube of velocity, so while the fan may appear to be spinning fairly fast, it may be drawing virtually no power from the engine. The loudness of the fan is a better indicator- on my car the fan will roar quite loudly at fast idle, then go completely silent when the clutch disengages.... but the eye can't really see any difference in the speed of the fan. >>>and when you stop the car for a while and leave the engine running, >>>it really draws down the engine temp...almost to cold. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > stop and start driving, the temp satys rock-steady. Only if I park for > more than 2 minutes does the temp drop. Then the thermostat is BAD. The temp should never drop if the thermostat is doing its job. That's the whole point. What its probably doing is sticking open rather than closing smoothly as the temperature of the engine decreases. When the engine finally gets cold enough it will snap shut, but that's not how its really supposed to work. > At these temps, it seems even airflow from the fan idling is enough to > cool the engine. I don't doubt that. But the problem is still the thermostat if the engine temperature falls below the normal operating temperature once its gotten up there in the first place. >>>>It's also the only beater I have that won't see roads in the summertime >>>>(the plate will be coming off it and going back on the Supra...) [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > temperature falls below the normal operating temperature once its gotten > up there in the first place. I agree with the sticking thermostat idea mostly but no one has mentioned that the engine block itself does lose heat as it is a large chunk of metal with cold air flowing over it. The outside temp at which the t-stat is fully closed but due to heater core and direct heat loss the engine starts to cool down below normal operating temp varies and is usually well below 0° F but it is still a very remote possibility. >> Thermostat's cool. When the car is running at a constant speed, or even >> stop and start driving, the temp satys rock-steady. Only if I park for [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > temperature falls below the normal operating temperature once its gotten > up there in the first place. Well, I think whatever is going to have to wait! Although I will try the thermostat. I didn't *think* of being stuck *OPEN* !!!! :0 I took it to have the timing belts replaced. Timing belts are almost new... Head gaskets are leaking... Looks like Steel Seal for this one!!! >> Then fix the THERMOSTAT instead of spending all the money for an >> electric fan. The fan isn't what's making the engine get too cool, its a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > At these temps, it seems even airflow from the fan idling is enough to > cool the engine. Hachiroku, Make sure you're not confusing the thermostat with the temperature guage. The guage on your dashboard may accurately tell you the temperature of you engine coolant, but it will not tell you if the thermostat is opening/closing correctly. I used to drive a Subaru Loyale in Fairbanks, Alaska and regularly experienced temperatures downwards of -40 degrees. Before leaving my cabin in the morning, I'd let it idle for five or ten minutes and it would warm up just fine. The volume of air moved by the fan is pretty small compared to the volume of air shoved through the radiator when the car is in motion. (Granted, your engine is also making more heat under load, but it's still making plenty at idle). You're engine temperature *shouldn't* drop when idling, which is why so many posters are urging you to check out your thermostat, the most likely culprit. Regards, Dave Riesz >>> drive like there is an egg between your foot and the accelerator pedal >>> and you will save much more fuel. >> >> Where's the fun in that?!?!?! > > Why does everything have to be fun? Um, you're kidding, right? > I want to convert my Subaru Hatch (1989 GL 3-door) from a belt driven fan > to an electric fan, in order to help it warm up faster in the cold weather [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Scion) that the A/C actually WORKS! And it's the only car that won't be on > the road in the summer! Figures, eh? My sister has those electric engine block heaters that you plugin to a wall socket when she parks the car during cold Canadian winters. I haven't seen in personally, but she tells me it works fine. >> Oh, and out of all the cars I have, this is the only car (other than my >> Scion) that the A/C actually WORKS! And it's the only car that won't be [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > wall socket when she parks the car during cold Canadian winters. I haven't > seen in personally, but she tells me it works fine. Yeah, I was thinking about one of these, too. There are a couple (a few?) types; one that replaces the dipstick, one that installs as a metal sleeve in the radiator hose, and another that replaces a feeze plug. Which one? Which one??? > Yeah, I was thinking about one of these, too. There are a couple (a few?) > types; one that replaces the dipstick, one that installs as a metal sleeve > in the radiator hose, and another that replaces a feeze plug. Which one? > Which one??? Definitely not the dipstick heater. Waste of money. A freeze plug heater is pretty good for most people, but make sure you don't punch the freeze plug back into the block. On vehicles where you can specify a block heater when you order it, usually it is a freeze plug type. This is one of the options that cost less to buy initially than to have it done in a shop after you buy the car. That & they're a pain in the butt to install due to lack of space. My old (2005) Chevy full-size van was ordered with one, and GM now sees fit to install every block heater with a thermostat on the power wire. The heater won't work above 0 F. If you get one without a t-stat and have it on all night, you'll have warm air coming out of the vents in short order. With a t-stat, it's just "warm enough to start". The one that's a metal sleeve in the radiator hose sounds like a tank-type circulation heater, which is for Arctic conditions. That's an industrial-strength heater. Unlike the freeze-plug heater (which relies on convection), this one has a little heater & pump that runs all the time you're plugged in. >> Yeah, I was thinking about one of these, too. There are a couple (a few?) >> types; one that replaces the dipstick, one that installs as a metal sleeve [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >convection), this one has a little heater & pump that runs all the time >you're plugged in. Perhaps the best solution is the one I made in 1979...... SignatureScott in Florida >>> Yeah, I was thinking about one of these, too. There are a couple (a >>> few?) types; one that replaces the dipstick, one that installs as a [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Perhaps the best solution is the one I made in 1979...... But, I'm too young for FLA!!! >>>> Yeah, I was thinking about one of these, too. There are a couple (a >>>> few?) types; one that replaces the dipstick, one that installs as a [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >But, I'm too young for FLA!!! There are people down here below the age of dirt....LOL SignatureScott in Florida >>> Oh, and out of all the cars I have, this is the only car (other than my >>> Scion) that the A/C actually WORKS! And it's the only car that won't be [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > in the radiator hose, and another that replaces a feeze plug. Which one? > Which one??? I would use the dipstick or freeze plug kind. The kind that installes in the radiator hose is not warming up the coolant that will circulate when the car is cold started. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:14:56 GMT, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno@AE86.gts> wrote: >I want to convert my Subaru Hatch (1989 GL 3-door) from a belt driven fan >to an electric fan, in order to help it warm up faster in the cold weather [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Scion) that the A/C actually WORKS! And it's the only car that won't be on >the road in the summer! Figures, eh? Hachi, practice KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid! It works perfectly fine as it is, leave it alone. The belt driven fan with thermostatic clutch is simple, effective and efficient, you are adding many more failure points for a very dubious return. If you want it to warm up faster, shroud off the radiator opening in the grille to cut down the road draft through the radiator - look at the big Naugahyde covers (or the air-actuated shutters behind the grille) that truckers have used for many decades. --<< Bruce >>-- > On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:14:56 GMT, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno@AE86.gts> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > --<< Bruce >>-- Something as simple as a paper bag partially covering the radiator works well. Back in Montana, we called that the "Safeway Thermostat", and it does work when the temperature has a (-) in front of it. All the work has already been done. There is already a temp sensor and relay. They are used to pull the existing fan clutch on at already determined sensor settings. All that really needs to be done is mount the fan and splice in to the existing connector that you removed from the existing electric clutch. Bobs yer aunty >> On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:14:56 GMT, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno@AE86.gts> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Back in Montana, we called that the "Safeway Thermostat", and it does work > when the temperature has a (-) in front of it. >Something as simple as a paper bag partially covering the radiator works >well. > >Back in Montana, we called that the "Safeway Thermostat", and it does >work when the temperature has a (-) in front of it. It would probably make a generation A1 VW Golf/Rabbit GTI overheat in Manitoba in January. |
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