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Car Forum / Subaru Cars / September 2008OEM Cat converter for '02 Impreza?
My '02 Impreza Outback got 121,000 miles, and my local subaru dealer has got a Cat converter check engine code reading.t. They quoted me $850 to replace the Cat ($650 part + $200 labor). All I need is to pass the California smogs. I am not driving the car much anymore anyway (gas prices), just keep it in the driveway for an occasional camping trip (still cheaper than renting... provided no major repair costs) so giving out $800 just to register the thing just does not sound right. Goggling produced a $150 (???) "Catco" converter. Does anyone have experience with this beast? Can I bolt it on myself to keep the smoggers happy? Also, I am not sure if the sensor in the car gives a yes/no kind of answer, or actually produces a real number. Meaning that if I knew that the reading was on the borderline, can I make the car barely pass somehow (heard some urban legends on driving on a highway before the test). > My '02 Impreza Outback got 121,000 miles, and my local subaru dealer > has got a Cat converter check engine code reading.t. They quoted me [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > somehow (heard some urban legends on driving on a highway before the > test). An aftermarket cat shouldn't be a problem, but its not as easy as bolting it on. You'll need to cut the old one out and weld the new one it. And the sensor on the car is just yes/no. I would clear the code and then have the car smogged before dropping $80 on a repair that may not be needed. If the car fails the test, now yo know for sure you need a new converter. Passes then the original proble was just an O2 sensor failure. - Message posted using http://www.talkaboutautos.com/group/alt.autos.subaru More information at http://www.talkaboutautos.com/faq.htm > I would clear the code and then have the car smogged before dropping $800 > on a repair that may not be needed. If the car fails the test, now you > know for sure you need a new converter. Passes then the original problem > was just an O2 sensor failure. Thanks! It's interesting that there is no way of telling is it's the detector problem or the cat problem. >>I would clear the code and then have the car smogged before dropping $800 >>on a repair that may not be needed. If the car fails the test, now you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Thanks! It's interesting that there is no way of telling is it's the > detector problem or the cat problem. I think the sensors can be scoped to see if the switching is fast enough and in the proper range. DO NOT try an ohmmeter reading. Some ohmemeters will burn out sensors. Thsi may be less of a concern with wideband sensors - I dunno. I wouldn't risk that. Carl  Signatureto reply, change ( .not) to ( .net) >>> I would clear the code and then have the car smogged before dropping >>> $800 [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Carl Try googling some O2 and cat con info. here's coupla sites I found quickly; http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/ecmsensors/O2sensors.html http://www.autohausaz.com/html/emissions-oxygen_sensors.html carl Signatureto reply, change ( .not) to ( .net) >>>> I would clear the code and then have the car smogged before dropping >>>> $800 [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > carl check this article too; http://www.troublecodes.net/articles/catfailure/ Signatureto reply, change ( .not) to ( .net) > > Try googling some O2 and cat con info. here's coupla sites I found quickly; > >http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/ecmsensors/O2sensors.html [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > check this article too;http://www.troublecodes.net/articles/catfailure/ The latter was a great source, thank you, Carl! You can try installing a spacer on your rear o2 sensor. I have a catless exhaust on my 03 WRX. The spacer pulls the o2 sensor out of the direct flow of the exhaust , no CEL and gets threw emissions. Costs about $2. You get 2 spark plug spacers available at any autoparts store. I can dig up the part number if you need it. You will need to drill out the opening some on the spacers too. > My '02 Impreza Outback got 121,000 miles, and my local subaru dealer > has got a Cat converter check engine code reading.t. They quoted me [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > somehow (heard some urban legends on driving on a highway before the > test). > You can try installing a spacer on your rear o2 sensor. I have a catless > exhaust on my 03 WRX. The spacer pulls the o2 sensor out of the direct flow > of the exhaust , no CEL and gets threw emissions. Costs about $2. You get 2 > spark plug spacers available at any autoparts store. I can dig up the part > number if you need it. You will need to drill out the opening some on the > spacers too. I can see how that can clear the check engine light but how would that affect the smog check readings? > <runcyclexc...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > somehow (heard some urban legends on driving on a highway before the > > test). Well it wouldnt. They dont do those here, depends on the year car i think. They just hook mine up and look for codes and do a gas cap pressure test. >> You can try installing a spacer on your rear o2 sensor. I have a catless >> exhaust on my 03 WRX. The spacer pulls the o2 sensor out of the direct [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >> > somehow (heard some urban legends on driving on a highway before the >> > test). > My '02 Impreza Outback got 121,000 miles, and my local subaru dealer > has got a Cat converter check engine code reading.t. They quoted me > $850 to replace the Cat ($650 part + $200 labor). Hi, A couple of thoughts after "interesting" experiences getting past California smog tests: Cats do go bad, but it's far more likely you've got an O2 sensor failure. Not sure how many sensors you have, but it sounds like you have one in the exhaust stream of the cat. My smog guy tells me this one rarely goes out (if it's throwing a code, it's obviously working), but can tell you one of two things: First is the cat's dead. Think big bucks as you've heard. He says "emissions wise" the cheap replacements do as well as OEM. HOWEVER, I've seen nothing but grief down the road w/ OEMs, both on my cars and others. It starts w/ the installation problems: they usually don't just bolt in like OEM. From there you could have heating problems--the guys I've seen put 'em in weren't always the brightest when it came to figuring out WHY the factory spent all that money for heat shielding! I was lucky--my carpet only got "warm." An acquaintance wasn't quite so lucky--he burnt the carpet in his truck pretty badly. So... if you don't care about driving the car much in the future, go "cheap" but if you want to return the car to "constant" service, suck it up and buy OEM. Doing so saved me money in the long run. The other thing a cat code could mean is the upstream O2 sensor(s) is a goner. The mixture going to the cat is too rich for it to handle properly. Nothing wrong w/ the cat itself, it's just overloaded (especially problematic as the systems age.) Not such big bucks to fix. My current smog guy says the upstream O2 sensors are generally good for about 60k miles (though some last longer, none I've had made it past 100k), and cats for about 150k. So you're due for O2 sensors "again" according to him, but still have another 30k on your cat. Generally! Were this my car, I'd start by replacing O2 sensors, resetting all codes, and starting over. Now, for "urban legend" and such: the entire emissions system HAS to be up to operating temps to work right. Again, as the car ages, this becomes more important. One of my smog guys always told me to drive the car 5-10 miles to get things hot. Another always blocked the throttle for a full minute to two minutes to make sure the cat in particular was "hot." My current guy says both approaches should be combined. He also suggests any time you're "not quite sure" to have a "pre-test" done. This gives all the readings w/o upsetting the DMV computer w/ a "failure" reading that stays on the vehicle record (ever do a CarFax inquiry and see the "failures" on some cars?) He charges me half the regular price of a test for the pre-test, and applies the charge to the real test if I'm ok. In other words, if I fail, I pay half price, go fix whatever it takes, then come back and try again. If it passes the pre-test, he'll run it again "for real" and only charge me the one full fee. You might ask your guy about doing this since you've already had problems. Good luck! Rick > runcyclexc...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > > Rick I got a second opinion from another mechanic and he suggested replacing the upstream sensor. But how can an upstream sensor throw an error about a downstream component (i.e. cat)? Weird. Funny how you can spend $250 to replace a sensor, and still don't know for sure if it's going to fix the check engine light on. On Jul 2, 1:53 am, runcyclexc...@gmail.com wrote: > My '02 Impreza Outback got 121,000 miles, and my local subaru dealer > has got a Cat converter check engine code reading.t. They quoted me [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > somehow (heard some urban legends on driving on a highway before the > test). Hey there, I had a similar problem with my 2001 Impreza Outback and I subscribed to ALLDATAdiy.com and it has been very useful. I am handy and like to do things myself and this subscription gives me diagnosis, repair, TBSs, recalls and labor times. Check it out - I copied the link below for you. http://traffic.alldatadiy.com/cgi-bin/redir?pd_link=i1-a44690-o4010-c66365 Andy Deil On Jul 2, 1:53 am, runcyclexc...@gmail.com wrote: > My '02 Impreza Outback got 121,000 miles, and my local subaru dealer > has got a Cat converter check engine code reading.t. They quoted me [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > somehow (heard some urban legends on driving on a highway before the > test). Hi all, I bugged you guys ~2 months ago about a cat converter error code on a '02 Impreza, and I got some very good suggestions from you. The problem was an check engine light on (code P0420 - "cat converter below thershold efficiency"), and my dealer was trying to convince me to spend $800 on a new CAT. I can't pass the CA smog test with the test engine light on. Well, my registration is due in 2 weeks and I just took the car for a smog test (the dealer protested, saying why bother - well, since the retests are free, why not). It passed the smog test ***easily***. At idle the numbers were: 14.6% CO2, 0.1% O2, 17 ppm HC, 0.03% CO, not anywhere close to the max allowed numbers. So I runs back to the dealer and ask them just to replace the front O2 sensor. But they *insist* on replacing the cat converter, saying that if the system says it fails, it fails. So the question is - how can the cat converter be faulty if the emissions are fine? Or do the emission people and the cat converter sensor measure different things? I can insist on replacing just the O2 sensor ($250 as opposed to $800) though, but at this point I don't know if I can trust them at all - unless I misunderstand something. > On Jul 2, 1:53 am, runcyclexc...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > though, but at this point I don't know if I can trust them at all - > unless I misunderstand something. There is no direct way for the OBDII to measure cat performance other than comparing the upstream and downstream sensor values with ideal numbers in memory.(basically) So, for most cars, it would be like trying to measure one old component using 2 other old components. But a GOOD shop should be able to perform tests on the sensors that would show slow switching or a failed heater circuit, etc. They should also be able to do a tailpipe emissions test. Basically, your dealer is either corrupt or incompetent (hard to see a 3rd option here). This not say its impossible to have more than one bad component. Or, indeed, replace one now, and need a second component replaced in a few days/weeks w'ever. try reading a couple of articles here; http://www.troublecodes.net/articles/ OBDII..simply explained Cat. Eff. Failures Carl Signatureto reply, change ( .not) to ( .net) > runcyclexc...@gmail.com wrote: > > On Jul 2, 1:53 am, runcyclexc...@gmail.com wrote: [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > > Carl Carl - so, would a good emission test argue against a bad converter? My other mechanic says that the upstream sensor fails statistically more frequently because it experiences more stress (the sensor generates voltage, right). I kind of buy that. >>runcyclexc...@gmail.com wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > more frequently because it experiences more stress (the sensor > generates voltage, right). I kind of buy that. I have read MANY reports of upstream sensors failing WAY before the downstream unit. There are probably 2-3 reasons for this in various combination(heat, more corrosive gasses,etc.). Not impossible to have a bad converter or bad downstream converter - just difficult for the upstream sensor to last much over 80,000 miles or so. Could some last to 130K? probably. Some also fail at 60K or less. Especially if they have been exposed to coolant from a leaking HG or other stresses. And it is often a 'slow' failure. Sometimes the code can be cleared and may not return for weeks. There probably are some rare mechanical ways a Cat converter could be partially clogged but still pass an emissions test - dunno - but the car would probably have driveability isues at high speeds or under load. Carl Signatureto reply, change ( .not) to ( .net) >>runcyclexc...@gmail.com wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > more frequently because it experiences more stress (the sensor > generates voltage, right). I kind of buy that. Also, read here; http://www.troublecodes.net/articles/catfailure/ Carl Signatureto reply, change ( .not) to ( .net) > The problem was an check engine light on (code P0420 - "cat converter > below thershold efficiency"), and my dealer was trying to convince me > to spend $800 on a new CAT. I can't pass the CA smog test with the > test engine light on. Since your original post, my 01 has thrown this very same code. And supposedly, I have a brand new aftermarket cat that's under a year old. FWIW, I reset the code with the scanner I own ($100 at Wal Mart made by Innova.) The code didn't come back for another month or so, which gave me 3 weeks of no-CEL driving during which the counters were also clear (i.e. would pass emissions). I think it took about a week of driving to build up enough engine time to reset/pass the rest of the stuff that makes for a happy emissions odbii check. It isn't considered "clean" right after you reset everything. Anyway, if you are blowing clean emissions, and it does just look like a sensor issue, you can have a buddy with a code scanner reset your code, wait a week and have them recheck to make sure all the counters/such have gotten to their happy place, then immediately go in and have those emission checked, and you may make it another year. Just one option anyway. -- Todd H. 2001 Legacy Outback Wagon, 2.5L H-4 Chicago, Illinois USA Hi all, Just a followup on an old story. It was about a Cat converter check engine error and my local subaru dealer trying to make me spend ~ $800 on a new cat converter, despite the fact the emissions checked out normal. I could not get my registration renewed with the check engine light on. I bought a new front oxygen sensor for $100, paid an honest independent mechanic another $100 to replace ti, and the check engine light went away, never to come back. My car is now registered, and I have saved $600. Thank you, especially Carl, for your help. > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Thank you, especially Carl, for your help. Woot. Thanks for following up and adding additional weight to the frequent "try the front o2 sensor" advice on these issues. Signature-- Todd H. 2001 Legacy Outback Wagon, 2.5L H-4 Chicago, Illinois USA > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Thank you, especially Carl, for your help. I'm glad it worked out OK. Put the other $600 dollars aside for the next repair! lol! Carl Signatureto reply, change ( .not) to ( .net) On Jul 2, 1:53 am, runcyclexc...@gmail.com wrote: > My '02 Impreza Outback got 121,000 miles, and my local subaru dealer > has got a Cat converter check engine code reading.t. They quoted me [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > somehow (heard some urban legends on driving on a highway before the > test). Hey Nathan, I had a similar concern with my 2003 Subaru Outback and I subscribed to ALLDATAdiy.com and it has been very useful. I am handy and like to do things myself and this subscription gives me diagnosis, repair, TBSs, recalls and labor times. I hope you find it useful - it's pretty cheap considering the information comes directly from the manufacturer. Check it out - I copied the link below for you. http://traffic.alldatadiy.com/cgi-bin/redir?pd_link=i1-a44690-o4010-c66365 Andy Deil |
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