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Car Forum / Subaru Cars / November 2008

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Check engine light and oxygen sensors

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scjwonder - 07 Jul 2008 09:22 GMT
I have a ’00 Legacy GT and changed both oxygen sensors after getting a
Check engine code P0420 (i think) for oxygen sensors. Within a week
the check engine light is back- same code. Why would new sensors, fore
and aft not keep that "check engine" light off?

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scjwonder - 07 Jul 2008 09:23 GMT
I found my solution on the "net". Apparently if the oxygen reading
at the fore and aft sensors is the same, it means that the converter
is not efficiently cleaning the exhaust fumes and likely needs to be
replaced, resulting in the check engine light.
Replacing the sensors probably wasn’t necessary in the first place.
Wish I’d known that B-4 I did it

> I have a '00 Legacy GT and changed both oxygen sensors after
> getting a Check engine code P0420 (i think) for oxygen
> sensors. Within a week the check engine light is back- same
> code. Why would new sensors, fore and aft not keep that "check
> engine" light off?
Dave - 07 Jul 2008 11:34 GMT
> I found my solution on the "net". Apparently if the oxygen reading
> at the fore and aft sensors is the same, it means that the converter
> is not efficiently cleaning the exhaust fumes and likely needs to be
> replaced, resulting in the check engine light.
> Replacing the sensors probably wasn't necessary in the first place.
> Wish I'd known that B-4 I did it.

Yeah, I tried to explain that in an earlier thread on this ng, but folks see
that $1400 tab for a set of converters and their eyes glaze over. Suddenly
the cheaper O2 sensors look a lot better. Oh well look on the bright side.
If you haven't changed the O2 sensors before, you were due for them anyway.
kaplan3jiim@example.com - 06 Nov 2008 13:29 GMT
Well in my case first the Cats were replaced, now one of the 02
sensors and within a couple hundred miles I have the CEL once again.
$1500+ poorer.

Won't be spending any more money on this nonsense.

But I do have to pass an emissions test next June.  After I have the
codes cleared, how long does the car have to be driven to have the
computer have the proper status to pass an emission test.  I'm
assuming there might be a window of opportunity before the CEL light
returns.

>I found my solution on the "net". Apparently if the oxygen reading
>at the fore and aft sensors is the same, it means that the converter
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> > code. Why would new sensors, fore and aft not keep that "check
> > engine" light off?
.._.. - 06 Nov 2008 15:15 GMT
The window of opportunity is often only a few seconds.  It will be on when
the car thinks its warm.

And, what's your problem with running a clean car?  It seems to me like you
need a new cat, so get a new cat.  Or get a new f.cking car (which will have
a new cat).

If you are looking for excuses or a way to cheat the systems put in place to
prevent asstards like you from f.cking up my ability to breathe, maybe you
should consider f.cking off.  Go back to mexico you cheap a.s beaner piece
of sh.t.

> Well in my case first the Cats were replaced, now one of the 02
> sensors and within a couple hundred miles I have the CEL once again.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>> > code. Why would new sensors, fore and aft not keep that "check
>> > engine" light off?
kaplan3jiim@example.com - 06 Nov 2008 18:48 GMT
>The window of opportunity is often only a few seconds.  It will be on when
>the car thinks its warm.
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>>> > code. Why would new sensors, fore and aft not keep that "check
>>> > engine" light off?

Probably shouldn't reply to an idiot who can't read but if you could
you'd noticed I have spent $1500 to replace both catalytic converters
and 02 sensors in the last few months and the same code keeps coming
back and I seriously doubt that there is truly an emission issue at
this point.
jim - 07 Nov 2008 02:18 GMT
take a pill, man.

> The window of opportunity is often only a few seconds.  It will be on when
> the car thinks its warm.
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>>>> code. Why would new sensors, fore and aft not keep that "check
>>>> engine" light off?
Todd H. - 06 Nov 2008 17:13 GMT
> Well in my case first the Cats were replaced, now one of the 02
> sensors and within a couple hundred miles I have the CEL once again.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> assuming there might be a window of opportunity before the CEL light
> returns.

It seems to vary.  Mine's getting shorter.  

Once you clear teh code, it resets counters that take time to become
valid.  So, don't think you can clear the code and then go have your
emissions tested -- you won't pass if the sensors/tests that require a
longer time period to become "ok" aren't yet in that state.

It seemed like you needed about oh... 25 miles or so after clearing
codes to get clear.   When I first started fighting p0420 that time
window of being  clear before anothe rcel would set was about a
month.

Now, the window is getting smaller or non-existent.   I need a new
cat, myself, apparently.   I certainly don't want to be poluting but I
also don't want to be throwing money on what might be a false
indication of a problem.

--
Todd H.
2001 Legacy Outback Wagon, 2.5L H-4
Chicago, Illinois USA
kaplan3jiim@example.com - 06 Nov 2008 18:49 GMT
>> Well in my case first the Cats were replaced, now one of the 02
>> sensors and within a couple hundred miles I have the CEL once again.
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>also don't want to be throwing money on what might be a false
>indication of a problem.

Actually, without being precise, it does seem that the window until
the CEL returns has gotten shorter with each trip to the repair shop.
I did know it takes time to become valid.  It seems that the repair
shop had told me they were driving it long enough to return it to a
valid state so if that's the case I'll run right down to emission
station from the repair shop (in Joliet, IL)
scjwonder - 08 Nov 2008 07:22 GMT
After I replaced the CATs it took about two weeks for the CEL the
first time and with each reset it has taken much less time. I was told
by the tech at MIDAS who installed my CATs that the CEL often comes
back if it is not a Subaru OEM replacement CAT, so now I just ignore
it

> kaplan3jiim@example.com writes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> 2001 Legacy Outback Wagon, 2.5L H-4
> Chicago, Illinois USA
kaplan3jiim@example.com - 08 Nov 2008 18:42 GMT
The car is going back in Monday to ascertain whether the replacement
non-Subaru CATs are indeed defective.

Can't ignore it for more than 7 months as we have an emission
inspection which consists of reading the codes set for a pass/fail
test.

So was the tech saying it came on simply because of its origins (an
electrical signal issue?) or because the emitted exhaust was not up to
standards?

>After I replaced the CATs it took about two weeks for the CEL the
>first time and with each reset it has taken much less time. I was told
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
> > 2001 Legacy Outback Wagon, 2.5L H-4
> > Chicago, Illinois USA
kaplan3jiim@example.com - 20 Nov 2008 16:17 GMT
The car now has 2 new Cats to replace the original replacements.
Hopefully this is the end of the journey, but  only 100 miles so farf
since the work was done.  Although they are non-OEM, they are suppose
to be OEM spec'd & do have a warranty of 5 years so I guess I can just
keep replacing them until one work sright  if necesary. Sigh.

>The car is going back in Monday to ascertain whether the replacement
>non-Subaru CATs are indeed defective.
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
>> > 2001 Legacy Outback Wagon, 2.5L H-4
>> > Chicago, Illinois USA
tom klein - 13 Nov 2008 05:24 GMT
pardon me, but that seems like a load of malarkey - either midas'
aftermarket cat works properly, or it should never have been used in
that application.  and it doesn't say much about midas'
professionalism, either.

> After I replaced the CATs it took about two weeks for the CEL the
> first time and with each reset it has taken much less time. I was told
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>  > 2001 Legacy Outback Wagon, 2.5L H-4
>  > Chicago, Illinois USA
Dave - 07 Jul 2008 11:29 GMT
> I have a '00 Legacy GT and changed both oxygen sensors after getting a
> Check engine code P0420 (i think) for oxygen sensors. Within a week
> the check engine light is back- same code. Why would new sensors, fore
> and aft not keep that "check engine" light off?

It's because the PO420 code doesn't have anything to do with the O2 sensors
per se. That code sets when the sensors determine through correlation that
the catalytic converter is not doing it's job. If the O2 sensors themselves
have a problem it sets a completely different code(s).
me@privacy.net - 07 Jul 2008 16:32 GMT
>It's because the PO420 code doesn't have anything to do with the O2 sensors
>per se. That code sets when the sensors determine through correlation that
>the catalytic converter is not doing it's job. If the O2 sensors themselves
>have a problem it sets a completely different code(s).

what is the code if it is the O2 sensors themselves?
Dave - 07 Jul 2008 19:23 GMT
>>It's because the PO420 code doesn't have anything to do with the O2
>>sensors
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> what is the code if it is the O2 sensors themselves?

There are dozens. Here is the largest group...

P0130      O2 Circuit (Bank 1, Sensor 1)
P0131     O2 Circuit Low Voltage (Bank 1, Sensor 1)
P0132     O2 Circuit High Voltage (Bank 1, Sensor 1)
P0133     O2 Circuit Slow Response (Bank 1, Sensor 1)
P0134     O2 Circuit No Activity Detected (Bank 1, Sensor 1)
P0135     O2 Heater Circuit (Bank 1, Sensor 1)
P0136     O2 Circuit (Bank 1, Sensor 2) (See P2270, P2271)
P0137     O2 Circuit Low Voltage (Bank 1, Sensor 2)
P0138     O2 Circuit High Voltage (Bank 1, Sensor 2)
P0139     O2 Circuit Slow Response (Bank 1, Sensor 2)
P013A     O2 Sensor Slow Response - Rich to Lean (Bank 1, Sensor 2)
P013B     O2 Sensor Slow Response - Lean to Rich (Bank 1, Sensor 2)
P013C     O2 Sensor Slow Response - Rich to Lean (Bank 2, Sensor 2)
P013D     O2 Sensor Slow Response - Lean to Rich (Bank 2, Sensor 2)
P0140     O2 Circuit No Activity Detected (Bank 1, Sensor 2)
P0141     O2 Heater Circuit (Bank 1, Sensor 2)
P0142     O2 Circuit (Bank 1, Sensor 3)
P0143     O2 Circuit Low Voltage (Bank 1, Sensor 3)
P0144     O2 Circuit High Voltage (Bank 1, Sensor 3)
P0145     O2 Circuit Slow Response (Bank 1, Sensor 3)
P0146     O2 Circuit No Activity Detected (Bank 1, Sensor 3)
P0147     O2 Heater Circuit (Bank 1, Sensor 3)
P0150     O2 Circuit (Bank 2, Sensor 1)
P0151     O2 Circuit Low Voltage (Bank 2, Sensor 1)
P0152     O2 Circuit High Voltage (Bank 2, Sensor 1)
P0153     O2 Circuit Slow Response (Bank 2, Sensor 1)
P0154     O2 Circuit No Activity Detected (Bank 2, Sensor 1)
P0155     O2 Heater Circuit (Bank 2, Sensor 1)
P0156     O2 Circuit (Bank 2, Sensor 2) (See P2272, P2273)
P0157     O2 Circuit Low Voltage (Bank 2, Sensor 2)
P0158     O2 Circuit High Voltage (Bank 2, Sensor 2)
P0159     O2 Circuit Slow Response (Bank 2, Sensor 2)
P0160     O2 Circuit No Activity Detected (Bank 2, Sensor 2)
P0161     O2 Heater Circuit (Bank 2, Sensor 2)
P0162     O2 Circuit (Bank 2, Sensor 3)
P0163     O2 Circuit Low Voltage (Bank 2, Sensor 3)
P0164     O2 Circuit High Voltage (Bank 2, Sensor 3)
P0165     O2 Circuit Slow Response (Bank 2, Sensor 3)
P0166     O2 Circuit No Activity Detected (Bank 2, Sensor 3)
P0167     O2 Heater Circuit (Bank 2, Sensor 3)

And here is the group of cat codes...

P0420      Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 1)
P0421     Warm Up Catalyst Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 1)
P0422     Main Catalyst Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 1)
P0423     Heated Catalyst Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 1)
P0424     Heated Catalyst Temperature Below Threshold (Bank 1)
P0425     Catalyst Temperature Sensor Circuit (Bank 1, Sensor Circuit 1)
P0426     Catalyst Temperature Sensor Circuit Range/Performance (Bank 1, Sensor
Circuit 1)
P0427     Catalyst Temperature Sensor Circuit Low (Bank 1, Sensor Circuit 1)
P0428     Catalyst Temperature Sensor Circuit High (Bank 1, Sensor Circuit 1)
P0429     Catalyst Heater Control Circuit (Bank 1)
P042A     Catalyst Temperature Sensor Circuit (Bank 1, Sensor Circuit 2)
P042B     Catalyst Temperature Sensor Circuit Range/Performance (Bank1, Sensor
Circuit 2)
P042C     Catalyst Temperature Sensor Circuit Low (Bank 1, Sensor Circuit 2)
P042D     Catalyst Temperature Sensor Circuit High (Bank 1, Sensor Circuit 2)
tom klein - 23 Nov 2008 02:32 GMT
> I have a ’00 Legacy GT and changed both oxygen sensors after getting a
> Check engine code P0420 (i think) for oxygen sensors. Within a week
> the check engine light is back- same code. Why would new sensors, fore
> and aft not keep that "check engine" light off?

here's a related but slightly different question: i do not get a cel,
but if i hook up a code reader, the "c" test (cat. converter) always
flashes, indicating that it didn't complete.  this has been going on
for months (well over 100 "trips"), and with no (apparent) ill effects.
what does this mean?

'02 legacy wagon, 5mt, 168,000 km

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Carl 1 Lucky Texan - 23 Nov 2008 03:28 GMT
>> I have a ’00 Legacy GT and changed both oxygen sensors after getting a
>> Check engine code P0420 (i think) for oxygen sensors. Within a week
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Hmmmm....be interetsing to try that reader on a different soob and a
different reader on yours. Some (I think only very cheap) readers may
not read the ISO protocol correctly.

If it isn't the reader - maybe the ECU is bad?

Carl

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