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Car Forum / Toyota / Camry / November 2006Sudden Engine Failure
I don't know much yet, and I know you really can't tell - but any input? 1997 Camry 4-cyl, 150K, never had a problem since new and running fine. Oil in crankcase and changes up to date. Accelerating in traffic; BANG - major loss of power and a slight rattling sound, but engine still running. No warning lights on dash, smoke, leakage, etc. While pulling off, engine quietly stops - and will not crank. Yellow check engine light. Towed to local shop; says timing belt and other external appearances OK, but engine cannot be manually turned and presumed seized. Any theories as to what happened, and next step? (Other than getting a new car...) Thanks. turned a bearing or piston cracked or bent valve shaft you won't really know until you open it up. >I don't know much yet, and I know you really can't tell - but any input? > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Thanks. Are there any holes in the lower part of the block?  SignatureDoctor J > Are there any holes in the lower part of the block? Heh, heh. Had a Ford do that once back in the 60's. No holes as far as I can see after crawling under. There had been a very slight leak at the pan gasket; there's a bit more oil scattered around than I'd expected to see, but that may just be because I haven't looked underneath lately. Crankcase is still full. Local shop says nobody fixes engines or even bothers to diagnose them anymore; just pull it and put in a used or rebuilt. Says $2k+ for used, $3k+ for rebuilt. >> Are there any holes in the lower part of the block? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > anymore; just pull it and put in a used or rebuilt. Says $2k+ for used, > $3k+ for rebuilt. sounds like the local shop simply wants to sell a used or rebuilt engine. that's like saying a doctor doesn't diagnose any more, he just does an appendectomy for the hell of it. It may be that the timing belt has slipped a notch or two through wear or looseness, and that would be the first thing I'd look at. and then go deeper into diagnosis. > sounds like the local shop simply wants to sell a used or rebuilt engine. > that's like saying a doctor doesn't diagnose any more, he just does an > appendectomy for the hell of it. It may be that the timing belt has > slipped a notch or two through wear or looseness, and that would be the > first thing I'd look at. and then go deeper into diagnosis. Wasn't just the one guy who said that... Timing belt was my first guess, but that appears to be OK - and would that keep the engine from being manually turned? Loosen the spark plugs and try to turn it to be sure its frozen > Any theories as to what happened, and next step? (Other than getting a > new car...) ============================= Engine failures are rare so if you like the rest of the car I'd be looking for a used engine. Perhaps piston pin clip loosened. I am not an expert, but this is what happened to my sister: The symptoms were similar to yours. Then the mechanics found that the timing belt was broke. While trying to install a new belt they realized that the cam shaft was seized. There was a rubbery piece of sealant that probably fell off, and block the oil path up to the head. After replacing the head with a used one, the car is running again. Maybe the rattling sound that you heard was also the sound of the timing belt teeth slipping over the seized cam shaft? - just a theory. > I am not an expert, but this is what happened to my sister: > The symptoms were similar to yours. Then the mechanics found that the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Maybe the rattling sound that you heard was also the sound of the timing > belt teeth slipping over the seized cam shaft? - just a theory. That can happen for sure, but usually after some sort of engine repair where excess sealant has torn off afterwards. Jason > I don't know much yet, and I know you really can't tell - but any input? > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Thanks. The "bang" symptom provides a clue. Could be a siezed shaft, and there are a few: cams, crank,balance-shafts, or maybe a conrod or broken piston, tho pistons usually keep going unless the gudgeon or wrist-pin has ripped out of the piston. Most likely a starvation of oil to a shaft, the shaft tightens, siezes, then snaps as the crank keeps trying to drive it, tho even there the rubber belt would have to transmit that power and would snap itself, So back to crank and/or rods etc. Jason > The "bang" symptom provides a clue. Could be a siezed shaft, and there are a > few: cams, crank,balance-shafts, or maybe a conrod or broken piston, tho [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > rubber belt would have to transmit that power and would snap itself, So back > to crank and/or rods etc. Thanks for all the input, guys. I have a bit more information: The dealer has pulled the pan and the head, and tells me the crank seems intact, but a piston has impacted the head, destroying it. Sounds like a rod or wrist pin to me, but it's been decades since I took an engine apart, and never a Toyota. Just by coincidence, Friday I got in the mail a notice about the settlement of a class action suit regarding oil gelling. Back about February, I found quite a bit of sludge built up around the oil filler when I went to change the oil - something I'd never noticed before. It was bad enough I couldn't pour the oil in. I did three quick (500 mile) changes with a high detergency oil, and it all appeared to be cleaned out; but who knows. I asked the dealer if the failure could be related to this; he said "no" before he even had the engine apart; and continued "That doesn't really happen, hardly at all." Finally, they had originally quoted $3000 to put in a rebuilt short block, and are now recommending $4800 for a complete USED engine. Are they on the right page? (holding in mind northeast USA pricing) > > The "bang" symptom provides a clue. Could be a siezed shaft, and there are a > > few: cams, crank,balance-shafts, or maybe a conrod or broken piston, tho [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > block, and are now recommending $4800 for a complete USED engine. Are > they on the right page? (holding in mind northeast USA pricing) If the engine had that amount of sludge, as you have described, its a virtual *certainty* that is why the engine failed. My understanding of the sludge issue is that it occurs where for a period, the engine was not oil-changed enough. Not accusing you of this, it may have happened some-time prior, sttled initialy in the sump/oil-pan and then has moved around the engine oil-galleries, once the oil-filter clogged and allowed bypassing. Each cylinder wall is lubricated by the prescence of oil-mist in the crankcase and from intermittant bursts of oil from a small oriface located in the conrod upper bearing housing. As the crank journal rotates in the rod bigend, the oil-hole in the crank not only lubricates the bigend bearing shells, but for an instant aligns with this "blow-hole" or oriface each full revolution providing the burst of oil.. If sludge has blocked that oriface or blowhole, then the associated cylinder wall is starved of enough oil, and piston siezure results. Those prices for a 2nd-hand engine sound *way* too high. You should be able to buy a good engine (check for sludge build-up by inspecting the oil-filler hole) for about a $1000 max , maybe $1500 if the wrecker or breaker's yard is offering a "remove and replace" with another 2nd-hand engine if the first one fails within 3 months or so. Best o luck,.Jason > Those prices for a 2nd-hand engine sound *way* too high. You should be able > to buy a good engine (check for sludge build-up by inspecting the oil-filler > hole) for about a $1000 max , maybe $1500 if the wrecker or breaker's yard > is offering a "remove and replace" with another 2nd-hand engine if the first > one fails within 3 months or so. Those prices included an estimated 18 hours labor, plus "incidentals." I think I heard $1900 for the engine alone, which I presume included some markup for the dealer. And no accusations about the oil changes necessary; i know I didn't do it every 3000 miles. But it rarely if ever went beyond the factory recommended interval. > > Those prices for a 2nd-hand engine sound *way* too high. You should be able > > to buy a good engine (check for sludge build-up by inspecting the oil-filler [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I think I heard $1900 for the engine alone, which I presume included > some markup for the dealer. Oh I understand, that includes fitting the replacement enginem,,fair enuff then, $1900 is tolerable,..but not much more :-) > And no accusations about the oil changes necessary; i know I didn't do > it every 3000 miles. But it rarely if ever went beyond the factory > recommended interval. Yeahm there has been a lot of conjecture about this problem. Mine (4 cyl) has 180,000ks or 112,000miles and I change it at 3000 k intervals, cause if I let it go any longer, I start to see carbon-like deposits in the oil-cap. If its in the oil-cap, its everywhere else inside too. I bought mine 2nd-hand with 155,000 ks. When I handed it over to a mechanic to have the cam-belt done, they had to replace all the seals and the oil-pump. The pump-seal had cut a deep groove in the pump-shaft it had gone so brittle. Plus they noticed the sump had been resealed. Probably was cleaned out at some stage. So $25 for oil and filter every 3 or so months is cheap insurance the engine will go for a long time. Jason |
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