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Car Forum / Toyota / Camry / September 2007Help with starter circuit wiring needed
Its an 1988 Camry 4 cyl station wagon. Sometimes the starter works fine, sometimes there is just a click. Been like this for the 2 years I have had the car. There is an intmt. voltage drop of about 2 volts in the wiring for the starter control terminal. Whenever it fails, I just jump from the battery direct to the starter control terminal, and it never fails to start then. Thought it might be a bad neutral start safety switch, but I removed it without getting off the PARK position and ohmed it out----- it is not resistive at all. So I thought it must be a bad ignition switch. When it has failed I am reading only 10 volts at the black wire with white stripe, which I know feeds power to the starter control terminal. No wonder....a 2 volt drop to 10 volts would indeed give you a 'click'/no-start. But I found that the terminal that is on the *input* side (toward the battery) of the starter engage contact (of ignition switch) is also dropping to 10 volts! This is a solid brown wire. So I have a problem ahead of the iginition switch even. Maybe it is a bad relay or connection to a relay in that black relay box on the drivers side fender well? I can't tell where this wire goes to, as all the ign switch wires just go into a bundle in the steering column. THe simple fix is just to run a new wire from some point that is hot whenever the key is turned to the ON position....but I'd rather track it down and fix properly than do a band-aid fix. I can't find my Camry manual at the moment, and even when I had it, the wiring diagrams didn't correspond too well to what I actually have. If any one can give me a heads' up where that brown wire (the one feeding power through the ign switch to energize the starter) is connected to, I'd appreciate it. That is where my bad connection is. Thanks, geronimo If you want to start a thread at toyotanation.com and pm me, i can sling some diagrams your way. -- Message posted using http://www.talkaboutautos.com/group/alt.autos.toyota.camry/ More information at http://www.talkaboutautos.com/faq.html Another source of diagram is Figure 15 on the Autozone's free guide: http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/14/09/20/0900823d80140920/repai rInfoPages.htm Starter relay (the diagram doesn't show one for the 88 automatic) is downstream of the ignition switch. Maybe the voltage drop caused Toyota to add a relay to later Camrys, as shown in the diagrams. It's probably in the wiring and/or dirty connections if you are seeing a voltage drop at the input of the ignition switch. Because that switch is HOT at all times. Which means it goes directly to the battery. If you have 7.5A IGN fuse, you might want to turn the key to ON (not START), and see what kind of voltage you measure across the 7.5A IGN fuse. It should also be 10V when you're having problems. If you have the ALT fuse link or AM1/2 fuse links like in later models in the fuse box these should yield battery voltage even when you have problems. After this you know it's probably the wiring between the fuse link block and the ignition switch. > Its an 1988 Camry 4 cyl station wagon. Sometimes the starter works > fine, sometimes there is just a click. Been like this for the 2 years [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Thanks, geronimo BTW, pull the fuse link blocks when measuring voltage, so any electrical problem downstream doesn't pull the voltage down. On Sep 7, 6:35 pm, johngd...@hotmail.com wrote: > Another source of diagram is Figure 15 on the Autozone's free guide:http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/14/09/20/0900823d801... > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > > Thanks, geronimo Also, when you measure 10V on the input of the ignition switch, the switch is at OFF, right? > Its an 1988 Camry 4 cyl station wagon. Sometimes the starter works > fine, sometimes there is just a click. Been like this for the 2 years [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Thanks, geronimo No, it is at full batt voltage until I go from ON to START.... then because there is resistance going back to the battery, it drops to 10 volts. That is why I know it is not the IGN. switch contact that is bad, it is upstream from the ign. switch. As I recall, there are three fuses or fusible links that are mounted right on the pos. terminal of the battery. Obviously starter power has to be going through one of these. Maybe that is where bad connection is? Geronimo >Also, when you measure 10V on the input of the ignition switch, the >switch is at OFF, right? [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >> >> Thanks, geronimo Well, the only schematics I could find are the ones on AutoZone for the 1988 Camry. And that one doesn't show there is a Starter Relay!! I am surprised because of the amount of current going to the starter (250-400 amps for 97+ models). So if you have full battery voltage at the IGN SWITCH until you turn it to START, then it's probably the voltage drop by the starter. You can do a test by jumpering not from the battery but from the INPUT of the IGN SWITCH to the starter, PROVIDED THAT your car connects directly from the IGN SWITCH to the starter without going through a relay (otherwise it's a over-current for the wires). If the test succeeded in starting, then you know the current drop across the IGN SWITCH is too much. But I have to be absolutely certain that the model year doesn't use a relay before putting all that current through the brown wire you mentioned. Can you verify the existence of a starter relay? > No, it is at full batt voltage until I go from ON to START.... then > because there is resistance going back to the battery, it drops to 10 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > these. Maybe that is where bad connection is? > Geronimo Again, I have already eliminated the ign switch as the culprit, there is NO appreciable voltage being dropped across the ign switch. The drop is occuring somewhere downstream from battery and upstream from the ign switch. It is BRN B-wire on input, and Black/white going out to safety switch as you said....from there to control wire. During cranking there is 0 volts across the ign contacts. The voltage is being pulled down by resistance ahead of the ign switch towards the battery. I have already jumpered around the safety switch, still had same problem. I initially thought that might be where the voltage drop was. I am thinking that there must be an internal relay in this starter, as the wire going to control relay is only abt 20 gauge. It would never handle 200-400 amps! This is is a new starter from Autozone.....a new starter wasn't the fix either! There are three fuses mounted right on the pos terminal of batttery, but none of the four wires are solid BRN. There is something wrong with the middle 60 amp fuse, as it will not pull out, so I am going to investigate this today. But since the starter control wire pwr. doesn't go to the battery directly, problem is not at those fuses. Geronimo >Well, the only schematics I could find are the ones on AutoZone for >the 1988 Camry. And that one doesn't show there is a Starter Relay!! I [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> these. Maybe that is where bad connection is? >> Geronimo Yeah, 2v drop from battery to the (B) wire on the IGN SW is way too much. There should be <0.1v across each connection hopefully. And this is measured with a digital volt meter available for loan (free but with deposit) at Autozone. The 88 diagram is not too detailed on where the (B) wire leads. Maybe someone else with more detailed 88 diagram can help. According to Haynes, the later IGN SW goes upstream through a junction block and then the 30A AM2 fuse, connects directly to the upstream side of the 100A ALT fuse link, to the MAIN fuse link, and then to the battery. Additional reference for those who need to do the test, I came across this article on voltage drop test: http://www.aa1car.com/library/voltage_drop_testing.htm > Again, I have already eliminated the ign switch as the culprit, there > is NO appreciable voltage being dropped across the ign switch. The [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Geronimo On Sep 8, 12:19 pm, johngd...@hotmail.com wrote: > Yeah, 2v drop from battery to the (B) wire on the IGN SW is way too > much. There should be <0.1v across each connection hopefully. And this [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > - Show quoted text - >From reading all the good advice on here and from what the problem is ? Has anyone thought to check for poor ground wire connections ? almost sounds to me like a corroded connection ? According to Figure 15 of 87-91 Autozone diagram: the (B/W) wire from the IGN SWITCH goes into the Neutral Safety Switch and comes out a (B) wire. *IF* there is no starter relay, and the starter works jumpering from IGN SWITCH to starter; then the next step would be jumpering from (B) of Neutral Safety Switch to starter. You know, I didn't realize the 88 was designed to carry starting current on these wires!! So better make sure before the tests. > No, it is at full batt voltage until I go from ON to START.... then > because there is resistance going back to the battery, it drops to 10 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > these. Maybe that is where bad connection is? > Geronimo If everything else checks out, maybe it's like Honda-man's 99 Camry starting problem? Hard to start the first time, but when it gets going, it gets going. But I wouldn't try to fix a problem by just replacing parts. > No, it is at full batt voltage until I go from ON to START.... then > because there is resistance going back to the battery, it drops to 10 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > these. Maybe that is where bad connection is? > Geronimo |
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